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Old
12-28-2013, 03:41 PM
  #176
Killion
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Yes its certainly very bizarre in many respects, things just not adding up. When I have time do some serious digging into what appears to me to be some Skullduggery on several fronts and connect the dots, maybe we can see whats what. Almost all of this period from 45-47 "peculiar" to say the least.

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12-28-2013, 05:12 PM
  #177
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1944 USA NHL Teams

Dec. 6, 1944 Dink Carroll column looking at the wartime situation of the four USA franchises in the NHL. Some interesting tidbits and background:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=3954%2C966216

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12-28-2013, 08:02 PM
  #178
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^^^ Yes that certainly is interesting. The NY Americans were mothballed when all but 2 of their players were called up for service after Red Dutton had assumed control on behest of the NHL some years before. Dutton had leant former owner Bill Dwyer $20,000 to meet payroll, Dwyer eventually out altogether, Dutton then Managing & Coaching until 42 when then NHL President Frank Calder pulled the plug & suspended the team from play. Dutton from 42/43 on representing the now "sleeping" franchise at Board of Governors meetings thereafter and told that if he could line up financing for a new arena in Brooklyn that after the War the franchise would be reconstituted. So he did, raised $7Million.... then suddenly in 1943 Frank Calder died, Red offered the position on a 5yr term which he accepted however not without first the proviso that upon conclusion he leaves, builds an arena in Brooklyn, Americans back in play.

However, he had other business interests, mainly construction in Calgary & Winnipeg, and those responsibilities kept him occupied to the point it was becoming too much so he tried to resign as President, only to be convinced to hang in there and that apparently happened at least twice during his tenure. He was also a strident Expansionist, envisioning a 15 team 3 Division NHL post War, an idea that didnt sit well at all with Norris and a few other owners amongst other issues. Upon the cessation of hostilities & nearing the end of his Presidency, Dutton pushed for Clarence Campbells' appointment which he saw through to conclusion obviously however, just shortly before the transfer of administrative power at a Board of Governors meeting the owners pulled a 180 on Dutton & reneged on their promise to allow the Americans to be reconstituted as full members of the league....

Well, Dutton went into orbit of course & understandably as here from the mid 30's through 42 he'd put in a lot of time, money & sweat equity in keeping that team together and was defacto owner of the club, then accepts the job as President while sacrificing his other business interests and all under the premise that post WWII and with $7M in financing, good to go again with the Americans. Apparently told Norris, Smythe and all the rest of them to "Shove this franchise straight up your ***es" and stormed out. This was a guy who as a player (Defenceman) lead the league in Penalties (including during his years in the old WCHL) and was no shrinking violet. Called a spade a spade. He believed that it was Norris & MSG along with the the Rangers that essentially stood in his way and was the reason for the about face. That Norris really didnt like him much to begin with and wasnt going to sit still while this guy just waltzes in to Brooklyn and throws up a nice new building to compete against MSG & very likely beat Hell out of the Rangers. Duttons Curse its called. That he swore the Rangers would never win another Cup during his lifetime and he was right. 54yrs between 1940 & 1994, Red Dutton dying in 1987 I believe it was.

After Campbells Coronation, Dutton, beyond disgusted walked from the NHL altogether & back to Western Canada where he made a fortune in real estate, construction & development, sitting on all kinds of boards including the Calgary Stampede, was part owner of the CFL franchise, built McMahon Stadium & so on & so forth. Never stepped into an NHL arena again but for one time when the Flames relo'd from Atlanta in 1980 & he dropped the ceremonial opening game puck. Member of Manitobas', Alberta Hockey & Sports Hall's of Fame and was inducted into the HHOF in the late 50's. He did accept a completely hands off sort of role as honorary Stanley Cup Trustee & was on the Selection Committee for 15yrs so the ties werent completely severed but really, the HHOF is an autonomous body, far removed and an island of tranquility from where the real heavy lifting, where the scythes & skates are sharpened.... and also should be noted that if as Dink Carroll reports in one of those articles that the Bruins were donating all profit to the War Effort and its even remotely true, little wonder Adams had to go hat in hand to Norris, ask for & receive a loan to stay afloat, thus giving Big Jim a virtual lock on all 4 US based franchises and he also owned a large block of MSG Inc, the Red Wings & by that time Chicago.


Last edited by Killion: 12-28-2013 at 08:32 PM.
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12-28-2013, 09:00 PM
  #179
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Philadelphia

^^^ Add Philadelphia interests, headed by Len Peto former director of the Canadien Arena Co., in an NHL franchise, building an arena in a boxing stronghold controlled by Jim Norris and you see how the league was fragmented.

Conn Smythe was away at the time. Frank Selke effectively in charge in Toronto. Sense that there were agreements in place that Conn did not approve so upon his return a number of changes were made.

Separate question is why did not or could not the NHL reach a similar agreement with USA amateur hockey as they did in Canada with the C.A.H.A?

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12-28-2013, 09:49 PM
  #180
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Good question and just guessing, but howabout just a total lack of foresight that amateur in the US would ever catch up to much less be on par with Canada or...... more backroom deals. Smythe & Montreal wanting 'X' and the Norris faction wanting 'Y'?. A trade-off. Canada controls talent & production with an agreement & funding to the C.A.H.A. while the US gets cut out of the loop. Tinfoil hat theory perhaps but stranger things were going on.

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12-28-2013, 10:02 PM
  #181
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Doubtful

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Good question and just guessing, but howabout just a total lack of foresight that amateur in the US would ever catch up to much less be on par with Canada or...... more backroom deals. Smythe & Montreal wanting 'X' and the Norris faction wanting 'Y'?. A trade-off. Canada controls talent & production with an agreement & funding to the C.A.H.A. while the US gets cut out of the loop. Tinfoil hat theory perhaps but stranger things were going on.
Doubtful, given that the Blackhawks had shown pre WWII that the US amateur ranks were very viable, with long term potential for growth.

Also Norris with control of pro boxing had ins to amateur boxing and sports - indoor track so adding amateur hockey to the mix was attractive.

Key element may be the fragmented nature of US amateur hockey - 1948 Winter Olympics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hoc...inter_Olympics

Note the amateur/professional issue was at the forefront.

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12-28-2013, 10:32 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Doubtful, given that the Blackhawks had shown pre WWII that the US amateur ranks were very viable, with long term potential for growth.
Perhaps, but consider that James E. Norris had acquired Chicago Stadium in 1936 (7?) and Major Fred McGlaughlin died in 1944. THe Blackhawks fell to Bill Tobin, Norris's puppet so contemporaneously to the whole issue of the C.A.H.A. & the US, the Olympic fiasco, Red Dutton & Clarence Campbell etc, not entirely convinced there was anything motivating Norris be it benevolent or of business in dealing with amateurs & amateur associations. Minor pro most certainly.

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12-28-2013, 11:58 PM
  #183
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Trends

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Perhaps, but consider that James E. Norris had acquired Chicago Stadium in 1936 (7?) and Major Fred McGlaughlin died in 1944. THe Blackhawks fell to Bill Tobin, Norris's puppet so contemporaneously to the whole issue of the C.A.H.A. & the US, the Olympic fiasco, Red Dutton & Clarence Campbell etc, not entirely convinced there was anything motivating Norris be it benevolent or of business in dealing with amateurs & amateur associations. Minor pro most certainly.
Trends from the twenties onward were towards amateur/youth sports becoming feeder systems for pro sports. Arch Ward - Chicago Tribune originated the Golden Gloves in boxing, Little League Baseball, Pop Warner football, Biddy Basketball, etc.

Jim Norris must have seen the trends and definitely had arenas to fill.

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12-29-2013, 12:20 AM
  #184
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I really dont why the US wasnt granted the same considerations as the C.A.H.A. but will keep digging....

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12-29-2013, 09:20 AM
  #185
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1948 Winter Olympics

1948 Winter Olympics, Canada won with a last minute thrown together entry. Does not look like Olympic or International hockey was an NHL priority. Conversely the NHL in Canada the NHL was very active, structuring youth and amateur hockey - A/B/C FORMS, seeking to control regional leagues, sponsorship by individual teams, providing expertise, venturing into the schools, making arena ice time available,etc.

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12-29-2013, 02:56 PM
  #186
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December 10, 1949 Dink Carroll Column - NHL Quality of Play

Interesting column about the quality of play in the NHL. touches the expanded Schedule - 70 games, dump and chase hockey and other factors:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...6434%2C2086947

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12-29-2013, 05:56 PM
  #187
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^^^ Yes that is interesting. Clearly the league was going through a metamorphosis at that time in transitioning from the War Years & the introduction of the Center Ice Red Line / Off-Side Rules, many teams playing dump & chase, shadow play against the greats in Richard and others in Montreal & Detroit, something Toronto was adept at just past the cessation of hostilities with Kennedy & company from 45 on. Low ebb in the talent cycle. Nothing normal from 39-45 and things really bad from 29-39 in a whole lot of quarters. It was the War that re-energized the economies, industries & jobs created. That attendance was down (all sporting events) doesnt surprise as industry & commerce was re-inventing & re-jigging itself from a War to Peace time economy, coughing & sputtering, money tight.

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01-04-2014, 09:39 AM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
Has anyone tried Google's newspaper archive search recently?

They moved the date filter to a "search tools" pulldown, and it doesn't appear to work.

For instance, if I search for "Oilers" with a date range between 10/1/1982 and 4/1/1983, I get a total of five results (only one of which is the Edmonton Oilers).

As I attempt to put together my goalie logs for 1982-83 (in particular, trying to find when exactly Mike Liut was pulled in a game), it's making me grouchy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Yep. It's broken.
Yeah, Google did away with a lot of the great functionality when they merged their archive engine and web engine. A lot of people have voiced complaints about this and there is now word that Google dedicated engineering hours to "update" the whole thing.

In the interim, you can do two things with Google:

1. Use Google Web Search to find content from 1970 to present
Go to www.google.com and type in your search term and click Enter.
Go to Search tools below the search box.
From the menu that appears, click the Any time drop-down list and select the Custom range option.
In the box that appears, type your specified dates.
The search results you see will be within the dates you entered.

2. Use Google Newspaper to find content earlier than 1970
To locate an article from a scanned newspaper, go to www.google.com and type in site:google.com/newspapers, followed by the search terms you’d like to use. For example, if you’re searching for a scanned article on Bill Gadsby, you would type the following in the search box:

site:google.com/newspapers "Bill Gadsby"

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01-04-2014, 10:37 AM
  #189
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Great Contribution

^^^ Great contribution Crease. Will see if there are ways to adapt for newspaper specific and French newspaper searches in the upcoming days.

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01-06-2014, 11:11 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
I do use the HSP - it's a tremendous resource - however, it's not as reliable as I need here.

For instance, this is the game I was checking out:
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?H19820449

Looking at that, my best guess is that Liut was pulled after the first of Hughes' shorthanded goals.

However, both AP reports I've managed to find suggest that it was the pair of goals that chased Liut.

(Among other reasons, it matters because Liut would receive the loss under the latter scenario, whereas Heinz would receive it in the former. Unfortunately, I won't be able to reconcile the totals for a bit, because I work alphabetically - and just reconciled the Edmonton totals. St. Louis is a bit lower on the list. All in due time, but Hartford comes next!).
Back to this (finally up to reconciling St. Louis, which means that I'm almost done ).

It appears that Heinz should get the loss in this one; otherwise his totals don't add up for the season as a whole (not that the NHL hasn't been wrong before). If anyone's got a St. Louis or Edmonton local account of the game (particularly one that mentions when Liut left the game), I'd appreciate it.

EDIT: Found it!

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...rontpage&hl=en

"Less than 30 seconds later, Hughes scored again on a 2-on-1 break with a 30-foot slapshot past Heinz, who had spelled Liut in goal."

So the sixth goal was Heinz's, and so was the loss.

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01-08-2014, 10:06 AM
  #191
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Search Techniques

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post

2. Use Google Newspaper to find content earlier than 1970
To locate an article from a scanned newspaper, go to www.google.com and type in site:google.com/newspapers, followed by the search terms you’d like to use. For example, if you’re searching for a scanned article on Bill Gadsby, you would type the following in the search box:

site:google.com/newspapers "Bill Gadsby"
Trying the above for various circumstances. Excellent results to date. A few techniques building on the "Bill Gadsby".

A player with a long career or historically significant generates an unmanageable amount of hits. Adding a specific year or another key word gives the search much greater focus.

Playing the language game helps. Example if you are interested in hockey history in Three Rivers or Trois Rivieres, Quebec. a search incorporating "Three Rivers" will generates various useless filler from Three Rivers Stadium in Pittsburgh to any mention of three rivers, etc. Trois Rivieres eliminates most such results.

Will post more techniques as they come along.

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02-25-2014, 02:52 PM
  #192
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March 20 1951. AHL Hornets Disqualified from Playoffs

Interesting story about the 1951 AHL playoffs. the technicalities of player movement between leagues and the NHL and the conséquences:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...4453%2C4886405

AHL President Maurice Podoloff makes an interesting comment about Clarence Campbell and the NHL.

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03-01-2014, 02:00 PM
  #193
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Interesting article on the Rangers' potential to move to East Rutherford, New Jersey:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...rontpage&hl=en

Page C16.

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03-15-2014, 01:39 PM
  #194
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Feb 15, 1925

Nice stumble upon for Chalupa.

February 15, 1925. Hamilton Tigers goalie Jake Forbes penalized, replaced by Jess Spring for two shots:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...6618%2C1924174

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03-15-2014, 01:56 PM
  #195
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March 19, 1924.

Rather interesting day in hockey illustrating the range of hockey participation and the importance placed on each. Clustered side by side or beside in the Gazette:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...6609%2C2434611

An extensive look of the first game of the SC series.

A story about the deciding game in the Bankers League - high calibre of hockey, that produced a few future NHL players and a story about the champion Westmount High hockey junior team going to play the Ontario High School champs - Owen Sound.

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03-15-2014, 02:14 PM
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
February 15, 1925. Hamilton Tigers goalie Jake Forbes penalized, replaced by Jess Spring for two shots:
Yes that is interesting. I also stumbled across references to the same in Toronto, King Clancy & Red Horner "playing goal" while Toronto's netminder was serving time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Rather interesting day in hockey illustrating the range of hockey participation and the importance placed on each. Clustered side by side or beside in the Gazette:
Bankers League in particular. Very interesting... A little OT, but there was a team sponsored by the Pittsburgh Bank that played in the Western Pennsylvania Hockey League around 1902-1904 or so. Its claimed they were the first team to actually hire a "professional" hockey player, Hod Stuart, who was paid $15-$20 a week & given a job in Steel City. There are several early commercial leagues involving Banks, Bankers Associations & of course mining interests peppered through the NE & into Ontario & PQ; including some mercantile leagues in Toronto & elsewhere that were set-up during WW2 for Senior play including military involvement as most are likely aware. Quite a fascinating slice of history.

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03-15-2014, 03:34 PM
  #197
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More Common

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Yes that is interesting. I also stumbled across references to the same in Toronto, King Clancy & Red Horner "playing goal" while Toronto's netminder was serving time.



Bankers League in particular. Very interesting... A little OT, but there was a team sponsored by the Pittsburgh Bank that played in the Western Pennsylvania Hockey League around 1902-1904 or so. Its claimed they were the first team to actually hire a "professional" hockey player, Hod Stuart, who was paid $15-$20 a week & given a job in Steel City. There are several early commercial leagues involving Banks, Bankers Associations & of course mining interests peppered through the NE & into Ontario & PQ; including some mercantile leagues in Toronto & elsewhere that were set-up during WW2 for Senior play including military involvement as most are likely aware. Quite a fascinating slice of history.
Getting the impression that penalty replacements for goalies in the NHL was more common than originally thought. The stats generated during such situations tended to be blended into the goalies global numbers.

The variety and depth of leagues beneath the NHL and other SC eligible leagues especially at the grassroots level also seems to be more extensive than previously believed.

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03-16-2014, 08:29 AM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Getting the impression that penalty replacements for goalies in the NHL was more common than originally thought. The stats generated during such situations tended to be blended into the goalies global numbers.

The variety and depth of leagues beneath the NHL and other SC eligible leagues especially at the grassroots level also seems to be more extensive than previously believed.
So far up to 1934-35 I have found:

Sprague Cleghorn 3 minutes on Feb. 18, 1919
Jack Darragh 2 minutes on Jan. 24, 1920
Sprague Cleghorn 2 minutes on Feb. 1, 1922
Jack Darragh 2 minutes on Jan. 13, 1923
Dunc Munro 2 minutes on Dec. 20, 1924
King Clancy 2 minutes on Dec. 27, 1924
Jesse Spring 2 minutes on Feb. 14, 1925
King Clancy 2 minutes on the road in the 1926-27 season
Red Horner 2 minutes on the road in the 1928-29 season
Ralph Taylor 2 minutes at Feb. 16, 1929
Albert Leduc 2 minutes on Dec. 2, 1931
King Clancy, Red Horner and Alex Levinsky split 2 minutes on Mar. 15, 1932, with each giving up a goal
Charlie Conacher 2 minutes on Nov. 20, 1932
Charlie Conacher 2 minutes on Mar. 16, 1933
Lorne Chabot served a penalty late in the 11-28-33 game vs the Maroons. Montreal played without a goalie substitute. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rRYvAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TqgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=63 45%2C3768045

King Clancy also had his famous "played every position" game in the Stanley Cup playoffs.


Last edited by BM67: 03-26-2014 at 06:57 AM.
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03-16-2014, 09:02 AM
  #199
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Feb 15 1925 by Canadiens 1958

Interesting find. If you look over, there is a discussion about bringing the NHL to Buffalo. One wonders how different things would have been in that respect? I guess that the NHL settled upon New York City, Chicago, and Detroit for expanding in 1926, in addition to the franchise that they had in Boston and then went into Pittsburgh. New York Americans were the result of the Tigers move from Hamilton of course.

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03-16-2014, 09:45 AM
  #200
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Normie Himes

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
So far up to 1934-35 I have found:

Sprague Cleghorn 3 minutes on Feb. 18, 1919
Jack Darragh 2 minutes on Jan. 24, 1920
Sprague Cleghorn 2 minutes on Feb. 1, 1922
Jack Darragh 2 minutes on Jan. 13, 1923
Dunc Munro 2 minutes on Dec. 20, 1924
King Clancy 2 minutes on Dec. 27, 1924
Jesse Spring 2 minutes on Feb. 14, 1925
King Clancy 2 minutes on the road in the 1926-27 season
Red Horner 2 minutes on the road in the 1928-29 season
Ralph Taylor 2 minutes at home in the 1928-29 season
Albert Leduc 2 minutes on Dec. 2, 1931
King Clancy, Red Horner and Alex Levinsky split 2 minutes on Mar. 15, 1932, with each giving up a goal
Charlie Conacher 2 minutes on Nov. 20, 1932
Charlie Conacher 2 minutes on Mar. 16, 1933
Lorne Chabot served a penalty late in the 11-28-33 game vs the Maroons. Montreal played without a goalie substitute. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rRYvAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TqgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=63 45%2C3768045

King Clancy also had his famous "played every position" game in the Stanley Cup playoffs.
At one point Normie Himes replaced an Americans goalie in an injury situation.

The choice of skater is interesting. Mainly a defensemen - shot blocking ability, but forwards - Himes and Charlie Conacher were used as well. Risk of injury did not seem to be a factor.

Knowing the coaches back-up plan and thoughts would provide insight.

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