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What Would Gretzky Go For Today?

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Old
08-09-2013, 08:15 AM
  #126
pld459666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arpeggio View Post
Thought this would be an interesting discussion given that people seem to be making a big deal about the Gretzky deal being 25 years ago.

Consider his stats from the preceding four seasons (GP-G-A-+/-):

1984-85 Edmonton Oilers NHL 80 73 135 208 98
1985-86 Edmonton Oilers NHL 80 52 163 215 71
1986-87 Edmonton Oilers NHL 79 62 121 183 70
1987-88 Edmonton Oilers NHL 64 40 109 149 39

Had he stayed healthy during the last season, him and Lemieux would've cleared the rest of the scoring race by 30-40 points. Prior to this, he was winning the scoring race by upwards of 70 points. He's 27 y/o and has 4 cups.

Let's say this is taking place today, with today's rosters+Gretzky, and the Oilers are shopping him around (a trade request has not been made public). What would your team offer for a player this dominant? Assume he's making max salary on a multi-year deal.
Based on the complete lack of understanding of a players value by many on this board, alot less than what most will be posting.

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08-09-2013, 08:18 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggy35 View Post
Crosby + Malkin
Probably not tbh

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08-09-2013, 08:20 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by oilersfan11 View Post
Crosby,Malkin,Neal,3+ first round picks
lol.

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08-09-2013, 08:22 AM
  #129
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If I were the Pens I'd offer Crosby Neal and two 1sts

We wouldn't trade both Crosby and Malkin. Two of the best in the league for the best in the league doesn't make sense. Gretzky wouldn't be that far ahead of them in today's league (before you flip out, yes he'd be decidedly better but wouldn't dominate the same extent/put up the same point totals).

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08-09-2013, 08:28 AM
  #130
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Rico Fata in his prime.

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08-09-2013, 08:31 AM
  #131
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I think the best comparison in today's game is what would Crosby go for?

From the Oilers it would be a package like RNH, Schultz and 4 firsts. There might also be a couple throw ins from each side as well.

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08-09-2013, 08:32 AM
  #132
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A couple teams for sure

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08-09-2013, 08:33 AM
  #133
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If the question is asking what a player with Gretzky's production numbers from back then would be worth if putting up those numbers in today's NHL, with salary max on a multi-year deal, then I don't think there is a price that can be set.

Would be something stupid like Crosby+Malkin+4 1st rounders. Probably only teams like Anaheim (Perry+Getzlaf), Pittsburgh, Carolina(Staal+Staal+?), Chicago(Toews+Kane+Keith)... maybe a few others would be allowed to even call about it.

But I have to emphasize that it would be a player with the production numbers as above, and not specifically Gretzky.

Were it just the 27-year-old Gretzky, time-travelled into the modern day, at salary max? Compliance buy-out, or otherwise untradeable ( la Luongo). As in definitely worth assets in and of himself but on a salary max (aka Cap Killer) you'd be lucky to surround him with cardboard cut-outs of hockey players.

Gretzky was a great player, but his success was largely based on post-expansion NHL (and WHA folding) which created a huge dearth in the quality of NHL players.

A modern-day comparison would be putting an NHL team in the AHL. Yeah, it'd look like men amongst boys.

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08-09-2013, 08:38 AM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
Gretzky was a great player, but his success was largely based on post-expansion NHL (and WHA folding) which created a huge dearth in the quality of NHL players.

A modern-day comparison would be putting an NHL team in the AHL. Yeah, it'd look like men amongst boys.

For one, the WHA folding reduced the number of professional clubs in North America at the time.

Secondly, more and more Europeans and Russians were making the trek.

Not to mention the Oilers joined the NHL as a relative bottom feeder and developed into a powerhouse over time with some astounding drafting.

So it wasn't anything like dropping an NHL team into the AHL.

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08-09-2013, 08:53 AM
  #135
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RNH + Schultz + Yakupov + 1st + ?

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08-09-2013, 09:00 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
For one, the WHA folding reduced the number of professional clubs in North America at the time.

Secondly, more and more Europeans and Russians were making the trek.

Not to mention the Oilers joined the NHL as a relative bottom feeder and developed into a powerhouse over time with some astounding drafting.

So it wasn't anything like dropping an NHL team into the AHL.
Yeah it was. There was nowhere near the same talent pools then as compared to today. The NHL didn't have the same calibre of players, professional athletes in general were just inferior back then, because there weren't as many advances in medical science, nutrition, and athletic training.

The quality of an average to poor player today far exceeds an average to poor player back then.

Furthermore, the WHA had folded, yes, reducing the number of teams, but a lot of the players from those leagues were black-listed. The NHL still wasn't big on importing Europeans, it was still extremely rare at that point, unlike how it had been in the WHA because they'd needed to fill rosters and had had to look overseas for talent.

The Canadian and US youth hockey development programs were sketchy at best. Today a lot of money is invested into each, and also worldwide, increasing the talent pool that the NHL (and KHL) draws from. Back then there were fewer good players overall.

That means that a true gem, like Gretzky, didn't need to be anywhere near as polished as a Crosby or Malkin does today to outshine the crap that surrounds them.

If you want to see Crosby put up numbers like Gretzky did, the NHL would have to send most if not all Europeans to the KHL and then expand to 36 teams. The sudden surge in demand for NHL players wouldn't be met by the supply networks and thusly Crosby would be playing against players as comparitively bad as what Gretzky/Lemieux faced. Then we would see 200+ point seasons from the true gems like Crosby/Ovechkin/etc.

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08-09-2013, 09:17 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
Yeah it was. There was nowhere near the same talent pools then as compared to today. The NHL didn't have the same calibre of players, professional athletes in general were just inferior back then, because there weren't as many advances in medical science, nutrition, and athletic training.

The quality of an average to poor player today far exceeds an average to poor player back then.

Furthermore, the WHA had folded, yes, reducing the number of teams, but a lot of the players from those leagues were black-listed. The NHL still wasn't big on importing Europeans, it was still extremely rare at that point, unlike how it had been in the WHA because they'd needed to fill rosters and had had to look overseas for talent.

The Canadian and US youth hockey development programs were sketchy at best. Today a lot of money is invested into each, and also worldwide, increasing the talent pool that the NHL (and KHL) draws from. Back then there were fewer good players overall.

That means that a true gem, like Gretzky, didn't need to be anywhere near as polished as a Crosby or Malkin does today to outshine the crap that surrounds them.

If you want to see Crosby put up numbers like Gretzky did, the NHL would have to send most if not all Europeans to the KHL and then expand to 36 teams. The sudden surge in demand for NHL players wouldn't be met by the supply networks and thusly Crosby would be playing against players as comparitively bad as what Gretzky/Lemieux faced. Then we would see 200+ point seasons from the true gems like Crosby/Ovechkin/etc.
So much wrong I'm not even going to bother..

Basically it boils down to the newer is always better argument which is really tiresome.

However as you can see here, European/Russian influence increased from the mid-70s (and all through the 80s as I said).

The expansion was largely fueled by demographics: the baby boom.

As many of us suspected it was a bit of a golden age in the early 90s-2003ish and then there is a drop off more recently which goes against the today's players are bionic superhero arguments (like yours) competing against a super deep talent pool.

It isn't just population you have to consider: it is how many people are playing hockey, how many are in the KHL, how many can afford to play organized etc..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
This is what I've come up with so far for top scoring skaters. I used basically the same assumptions as in the OP, with a couple of changes. First, I shifted the age distribution more to the left (younger), to reflect the much younger peaks that forwards and offensive d-men have compared to goalies. Second, I measured the % of non-Canadian players than finished in the the top 2N in points (N = number of NHL teams, so currently that would be top 60 in points). Since this data is slightly more erratic than goalies' GP, I used a 5 year average instead of a 3 year.



Last edited by BraveCanadian: 08-09-2013 at 09:35 AM.
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08-09-2013, 09:36 AM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
Yeah it was. There was nowhere near the same talent pools then as compared to today. The NHL didn't have the same calibre of players, professional athletes in general were just inferior back then, because there weren't as many advances in medical science, nutrition, and athletic training.

The quality of an average to poor player today far exceeds an average to poor player back then.

Furthermore, the WHA had folded, yes, reducing the number of teams, but a lot of the players from those leagues were black-listed. The NHL still wasn't big on importing Europeans, it was still extremely rare at that point, unlike how it had been in the WHA because they'd needed to fill rosters and had had to look overseas for talent.

The Canadian and US youth hockey development programs were sketchy at best. Today a lot of money is invested into each, and also worldwide, increasing the talent pool that the NHL (and KHL) draws from. Back then there were fewer good players overall.

That means that a true gem, like Gretzky, didn't need to be anywhere near as polished as a Crosby or Malkin does today to outshine the crap that surrounds them.

If you want to see Crosby put up numbers like Gretzky did, the NHL would have to send most if not all Europeans to the KHL and then expand to 36 teams. The sudden surge in demand for NHL players wouldn't be met by the supply networks and thusly Crosby would be playing against players as comparitively bad as what Gretzky/Lemieux faced. Then we would see 200+ point seasons from the true gems like Crosby/Ovechkin/etc.
If it really were the lack of talent that caused Gretzky to dominate, why weren't the other star players of his day able to match his production?

And, can you explain how an old, broken Gretzky was able to score more than a PPG, finishing tied for 3rd in scoring in the 1997-98 season? He beat guys like Sakic, Yzerman, Selanne, Lindros and quite a few other really good hockey players.

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08-09-2013, 09:40 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by IWantSakicAsMyGM View Post
And, can you explain how an old, broken Gretzky was able to score more than a PPG, finishing tied for 3rd in scoring in the 1997-98 season? He beat guys like Sakic, Yzerman, Selanne, Lindros and quite a few other really good hockey players.
Aw come on we both know that guys like Sakic and Selanne could never compete in today's newer, faster, NHL!

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08-09-2013, 09:53 AM
  #140
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Pavel Datsyuk and a 1st would probably get The Great One.

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08-09-2013, 10:04 AM
  #141
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Imo the talent in the NHL has been dropping not Improving. Yes the game is more defensive players train better etc... But all the way up from youth hockey has changed . Players are all taught how to play the same which has taken away creativity .

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08-09-2013, 10:27 AM
  #142
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Bozak + 2nd

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08-09-2013, 10:29 AM
  #143
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Plekanec, Thrower, Leblanc, Gorges and 1rst round pick

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08-09-2013, 10:38 AM
  #144
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I bet some owners would offer up their entire franchise in a trade for Gretzky.

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08-09-2013, 10:40 AM
  #145
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he would probablly been called too small and been stuck in ahl if it was today...

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08-09-2013, 10:50 AM
  #146
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I bet some owners would offer up their entire franchise in a trade for Gretzky.
That makes a lot of sense

He can simultaneously play net defense and forward all the same time without taking a break.

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08-09-2013, 11:05 AM
  #147
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I bet some owners would offer up their entire franchise in a trade for Gretzky.
Didn't Glen Sather said that he would not have traded Gretzky for a whole organisation?

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08-09-2013, 11:07 AM
  #148
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he would probablly been called too small and been stuck in ahl if it was today...
They said he was too small for the NHL then too.

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08-09-2013, 11:08 AM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiltankjob 4 93 64 View Post
Imo the talent in the NHL has been dropping not Improving. Yes the game is more defensive players train better etc... But all the way up from youth hockey has changed . Players are all taught how to play the same which has taken away creativity .
This is a huge thing that many people seem to ignore. There is something special about just messing around on a frozen pond with your friends. You get to mess around without "wasting practice time". You also get used to handling a puck and making passes on ice that has never seen a Zamboni. That develops skills that hundreds of hours in an ice rink will never teach you.

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08-09-2013, 11:10 AM
  #150
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Eric Staal
Tim Gleason
Tuomo Ruutu
Jay Harrison
Victor Rask
Ryan Murphy
2014 1st rounder
2015 1st rounder
2015 2nd rounder
2016 1st rounder
2016 2nd rounder

Yes, it's a lot to give up. But the lineup would still be fantastic and even if you paid Gretzky 20 million plus you still come out good on cap space.

Tlusty-Prime Gretzky-Lindholm
Skinner-J. Staal-Semin
third and fourth lines.....who cares


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