HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Non-Sports > Political Discussion - "on-topic & unmoderated"
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Political Discussion - "on-topic & unmoderated" Rated PG13, unmoderated but threads must stay on topic - that means you can flame each other all you want as long as it's legal

Canadian Politics - Part VI Pack Edition

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-09-2013, 07:26 PM
  #426
Concordski
Knockoff Jets FTW
 
Concordski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 6,956
vCash: 663
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/10...d-to-auditors/

I can understand why Wright didn't turn this binder in, it probably isn't very interesting.

Concordski is offline  
Old
10-11-2013, 12:06 PM
  #427
The Moose
Registered User
 
The Moose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 5,251
vCash: 500
Andrew Coyne: U.S. and Canadian political systems both dysfunctional, in opposing ways
Quote:
In a presidential system, the executive and the legislative branches are separately elected. Each may be controlled by a different party, and each may legitimately claim to represent the people. The president cannot always count on a majority in Congress to support his legislation, but neither is he required to. In our system a fundamental disagreement between the executive and the legislature, such as over a budget, must be resolved in short order; in theirs it can be sustained indefinitely, or at least until the next election.

To work, then, the U.S. system depends upon a measure of bipartisanship. And by and large over the years it has had it. Without the threat of confidence votes to keep their members in line, both main parties emerged as big tents, coalitions of different factions. Crucially, there was some overlap at the moderate edges: with skill and effort, a president could assemble a majority in support of his legislation at least some of the time. The problem today is that there is no such overlap.

But if their system is vulnerable to breakdown, so is ours, in its own way. If in the U.S. the executive and the legislative branches are deadlocked, in Canada the executive has almost wholly consumed the legislature: the prime minister is “responsible” to Parliament only in the most formalistic sense. What we are left with, as the political scientist Peter Russell has put it, is a presidential system, without the Congress. (The Americans, perhaps, have a parliamentary system without a prime minister.)
Quote:
Two systems, both dysfunctional, in opposing ways. Is there nevertheless a common thread between the two? I think there is. Both have become hostage to small groups of voters, the objects of vastly disproportionate amounts of the parties’ time and attention. In both, the parties are sharply divided on regional lines. And in both, politics has become increasingly, corrosively nasty. I suggest these trends are not accidental, but have to do with a feature the two share: the first past the post electoral system.

The Moose is offline  
Old
10-11-2013, 06:48 PM
  #428
Howard Beale
Registered User
 
Howard Beale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,452
vCash: 500
"...in Canada the executive has almost wholly consumed the legislature: the prime minister is “responsible” to Parliament only in the most formalistic sense. What we are left with, as the political scientist Peter Russell has put it, is a presidential system, without the Congress."

Indeed.

And I certainly agree that First-Past-the-Post is a part of the problem, as it inherently encourages divisive politics. I'm hoping we'll some day see a switch to a preferential voting system, which would encourage political parties to appeal to a broader range of voters, instead of using divisive tactics that target specific regions or demographic groups to vote for them, while completely alienating others. Under a preferential voting system parties would need to get 2nd place votes from lots of voters outside of their core supporters, which would create a need for policies that have more widespread appeal. Instead of only catering to the 30% to 40% of voters that a party needs to win an election, with no regard for the supporters of other parties, they would now need to at least be bearable in the eyes of other parties' voters.

Howard Beale is offline  
Old
10-12-2013, 02:31 PM
  #429
Pangu
Registered User
 
Pangu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,530
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
Indeed.

And I certainly agree that First-Past-the-Post is a part of the problem, as it inherently encourages divisive politics. I'm hoping we'll some day see a switch to a preferential voting system, which would encourage political parties to appeal to a broader range of voters, instead of using divisive tactics that target specific regions or demographic groups to vote for them, while completely alienating others. Under a preferential voting system parties would need to get 2nd place votes from lots of voters outside of their core supporters, which would create a need for policies that have more widespread appeal. Instead of only catering to the 30% to 40% of voters that a party needs to win an election, with no regard for the supporters of other parties, they would now need to at least be bearable in the eyes of other parties' voters.
In my view, all of the parties in Canada have been moving towards the centre. There are days where the NDP and the Conservatives barely look that different.

I don't think it is fair to say that you just need 30% to 40% of the vote in Canada. If the Conservatives were viewed worse by the general population, alot more of the other 60% would fall in line behind the perceived 2nd place party and they would get beat. People didn't just vote for the NDP because they liked them more than the Liberals, but also because alot of them didn't hate the Conservatives much more than the Liberals (under Ignatieff) and were willing to risk a vote for a prefered third party.

Pangu is offline  
Old
10-12-2013, 03:13 PM
  #430
Howard Beale
Registered User
 
Howard Beale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,452
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangu View Post
In my view, all of the parties in Canada have been moving towards the centre. There are days where the NDP and the Conservatives barely look that different.
I guess that depends what issues you care about or pay attention to, but although there is more common ground than before in certain areas, there are still plenty of differences that I can see between the three parties (and it'll likely become even more clear as the election approaches and parties put out their entire platforms). We don't hear as much about the NDP and Liberal ideas right now because of them being the minority in a majority government.

Quote:
I don't think it is fair to say that you just need 30% to 40% of the vote in Canada.
Well the last time the winning party received over 40% of votes was the Liberals in 1997. In all 5 elections since then parties have won with 35% to 40% of votes.

Quote:
If the Conservatives were viewed worse by the general population, alot more of the other 60% would fall in line behind the perceived 2nd place party and they would get beat.
I don't think I agree, there's a lot of people who don't believe in strategic voting. They believe they should vote for the party that most closely fits with their views, rather than voting for their second choice in the hopes of stopping another party. Plus while Liberals would like NDP voters to vote for their party, the NDP voters obviously want Liberals to vote NDP. It's not that easy to get the other side's support, when you only can vote for one party out of the three.

Quote:
People didn't just vote for the NDP because they liked them more than the Liberals, but also because alot of them didn't hate the Conservatives much more than the Liberals (under Ignatieff) and were willing to risk a vote for a prefered third party.
In many cases yeah, I agree. But if we had preferential voting, a voter's entire set of preferences can be considered, when relevant. To me that is better than only voting for one party, when you might still have a strong preference among the others.

Imagine if I were a Green Party voter but I preferred the Liberals and NDP over the Conservatives. Preferential voting would allow me to vote my conscious, without the risk of enabling a Conservative win.

Or from the other side, let's say I supported the Christian Heritage Party, but still prefer the Conservatives over the NDP and Liberals. I could then vote my favourite party without essentially throwing away your vote and indirectly hurting the Conservatives, as you would in the current system.

Or I could be a rural voter who thinks the Liberals are the party of urbanites, so I choose the Conservatives and NDP as my top two choices.

There's lots of ways this could play out, and it would make elections tend to more accurately reflect the views of the voters. This would completely remove the need for strategic voting, and people could vote for the parties they truly liked the most.

Howard Beale is offline  
Old
10-16-2013, 06:52 PM
  #431
Puck
Ninja
 
Puck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Tahiti
Posts: 8,709
vCash: 500
Speech from the Throne: what struck me more than the 'socialist' Consumer Rights was the Balanced Budget Law legislation. I wanted that in 2006 hoping it could stop the CPC from going crazy lowering taxes (to keep our budget balanced). A conservative poster here at the time ('Lionel Hutz', a Nova Scotia lawyer), explained to me that such legislation was impossible, a Government could not bind subsequent governments to their own budget measures, each Government has a right to bind itself but cannot bind its successor. In other words, this stuff is like Harper's set-date election law, nice on paper, not binding Constitutionally and nice cosmetic meat for the base. (So I got off that bandwagon, and witnessed the CPC blowing budgets, go keynesian, spend money on recession goodies and get a majority; now they want in on binding successive governments with balanced budgets?).

We are also seeing the Harper Government flip on environmental issues, it remains to be seen what stillborn mutant is about to be hatched on that score to attract Keystone PR points after the slash and burn at Environment Canada over the last 7 years.

Also yet to be seen is the surprising statement about abolishing? the Public Service Relations Act (didn't get that one clearly) and we've yet to see the real plan behind Senate and electoral reform (considering most of the problems are theirs).

And, can't wait to see the Euro Free trade pact...business is behind it, so the Liberals will be careful, but the NDP here might be able to create wedge issues here to differentiate themselves from other brands.

Puck is offline  
Old
10-16-2013, 06:54 PM
  #432
Concordski
Knockoff Jets FTW
 
Concordski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 6,956
vCash: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post
Speech from the Throne: what struck me more than the 'socialist' Consumer Rights was the Balanced Budget Law legislation. I wanted that in 2006 hoping it could stop the CPC from going crazy lowering taxes (to keep our budget balanced). A conservative poster here at the time ('Lionel Hutz', a Nova Scotia lawyer), explained to me that such legislation was impossible, a Government could not bind subsequent governments to their own budget measures, each Government has a right to bind itself but cannot bind its successor. In other words, this stuff is like Harper's set-date election law, nice on paper, not binding Constitutionally and nice cosmetic meat for the base. (So I got off that bandwagon, and witnessed the CPC blowing budgets, go keynesian, spend money on recession goodies and get a majority; now they want in on binding successive governments with balanced budgets?).

We are also seeing the Harper Government flip on environmental issues, it remains to be seen what stillborn mutant is about to be hatched on that score to attract Keystone PR points after the slash and burn at Environment Canada over the last 7 years.

Also yet to be seen is the surprising statement about abolishing? the Public Service Relations Act (didn't get that one clearly) and we've yet to see the real plan behind Senate and electoral reform (considering most of the problems are theirs).

And, can't wait to see the Euro Free trade pact...business is behind it, so the Liberals will be careful, but the NDP here might be able to create wedge issues here to differentiate themselves from other brands.
This mix of balanced budget legislation and consumer protections legislation already seems like a stillborn mutant.

Concordski is offline  
Old
10-17-2013, 07:55 AM
  #433
Puck
Ninja
 
Puck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Tahiti
Posts: 8,709
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concordski View Post
This mix of balanced budget legislation and consumer protections legislation already seems like a stillborn mutant.
Absent from the previous NDP version of 'consumer protections' is a cap on interest rates for credit cards; that was Layton's centerpiece, and the CPC don't seem to want to touch that one. Absent from this thread are most Canadian Conservatives too, who seem to have given up defending the new Harper Government.

I also suspect the PMO sent the GG instead to China because that was Harper's alternative escape route if the Euro trip fell through. An article in British papers today claim China have been using the poor panda and panda diplomacy to lure as many as 50 countries into trade discussions; I guess we can include Harper and Canada in that exercise.

Most news pundits are saying the throne speech was a PR waste of time. It was staged as much to energize their base, as much as the lame excuse to prorogue. They don't see much to attract the center voters who have left the CPC recently.

Puck is offline  
Old
10-17-2013, 08:01 AM
  #434
Tubby Tuke
Drafting my Overalls
 
Tubby Tuke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,583
vCash: 500
That's essentially what it was, they just said '**** it - what are the things Canadians agree with, oh they want people to be charged criminally for killing police dogs? DONE'.

They're reactive instead of proactive which is pretty awful.

Tubby Tuke is online now  
Old
10-17-2013, 08:11 AM
  #435
Concordski
Knockoff Jets FTW
 
Concordski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 6,956
vCash: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post
Absent from the previous NDP version of 'consumer protections' is a cap on interest rates for credit cards; that was Layton's centerpiece, and the CPC don't seem to want to touch that one. Absent from this thread are most Canadian Conservatives too, who seem to have given up defending the new Harper Government.

I also suspect the PMO sent the GG instead to China because that was Harper's alternative escape route if the Euro trip fell through. An article in British papers today claim China have been using the poor panda and panda diplomacy to lure as many as 50 countries into trade discussions; I guess we can include Harper and Canada in that exercise.

Most news pundits are saying the throne speech was a PR waste of time. It was staged as much to energize their base, as much as the lame excuse to prorogue. They don't see much to attract the center voters who have left the CPC recently.
In fairness to Wet, he hasn't been on in a week.

Concordski is offline  
Old
10-17-2013, 08:25 AM
  #436
bombers15
Registered User
 
bombers15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,832
vCash: 500
Is it 2015 yet?

bombers15 is offline  
Old
10-17-2013, 08:51 AM
  #437
Puck
Ninja
 
Puck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Tahiti
Posts: 8,709
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concordski View Post
In fairness to Wet, he hasn't been on in a week.
I think Johnny LaRue has been the only one posting here in about a month. Much of the traffic here is fueled by 'emotive reaction' to each other. After the Senate flap, the 'governing team' seems to have thrown in the towel and gone home for awhile. I'll register that as an unprecedented T.K.O. at HF.

I would suggest that on items like foreign affairs issues (like the Euro free trade pact) that instead of just conversing in this generic thread, we could start new threads on the board to widen and include the participation of other posters outside Canada here on HF. I'm more interested in a wider set of views anyway, the main CPC input here anyway recently was just to bash Trudeau.

Puck is offline  
Old
10-17-2013, 09:23 AM
  #438
Concordski
Knockoff Jets FTW
 
Concordski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 6,956
vCash: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post
I think Johnny LaRue has been the only one posting here in about a month. Much of the traffic here is fueled by 'emotive reaction' to each other. After the Senate flap, the 'governing team' seems to have thrown in the towel and gone home for awhile. I'll register that as an unprecedented T.K.O. at HF.

I would suggest that on items like foreign affairs issues (like the Euro free trade pact) that instead of just conversing in this generic thread, we could start new threads on the board to widen and include the participation of other posters outside Canada here on HF. I'm more interested in a wider set of views anyway, the main CPC input here anyway recently was just to bash Trudeau.
Americans won't be interested in Canada until Trudeau becomes PM (he'll end up on the cover of People Magazine or something), I suspect. A Canada-Europe trade deal isn't going to be interesting either, because the US won't be in on it.

Though I wonder what would happen if Denis McDonough was caught giving a large check to a sitting US Senator...

Concordski is offline  
Old
10-17-2013, 10:00 AM
  #439
Puck
Ninja
 
Puck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Tahiti
Posts: 8,709
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concordski View Post
Americans won't be interested in Canada until Trudeau becomes PM (he'll end up on the cover of People Magazine or something), I suspect. A Canada-Europe trade deal isn't going to be interesting either, because the US won't be in on it.

Though I wonder what would happen if Denis McDonough was caught giving a large check to a sitting US Senator...
Actually, most Canadians have probably been put to sleep with Canadian politics as practiced successfully by the CPC stealth machine. I have a front row seat in Ottawa to the CPC reign of terror, but most people don't see it. In spite of huge eyeball grabbers this summer like Syria and lately the DC shutdown, if it wasn't for Senator Duffy, Parliament Hill in Ottawa would be largely on ignore.

Puck is offline  
Old
10-17-2013, 10:09 AM
  #440
Concordski
Knockoff Jets FTW
 
Concordski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 6,956
vCash: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post
Actually, most Canadians have probably been put to sleep with Canadian politics as practiced successfully by the CPC stealth machine. I have a front row seat in Ottawa to the CPC reign of terror, but most people don't see it. In spite of huge eyeball grabbers this summer like Syria and lately the DC shutdown, if it wasn't for Senator Duffy, Parliament Hill in Ottawa would be largely on ignore.
I'd argue that the first thing the left needs to do in Canada is to convince people that Canadian history and politics matters; the 1812 campaign seemed to push a subliminal idea of "we haven't done anything relevant since."

Concordski is offline  
Old
10-17-2013, 10:23 AM
  #441
Free Torts
Registered User
 
Free Torts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,585
vCash: 883
Send a message via MSN to Free Torts
According to Paul McLeod, Conservative MP Mike Wallace circulated a petition against satirical political show This Hour Has 22 Minutes for this sketch:



He got 50 people to sign it. I don't know what's sadder.

Free Torts is online now  
Old
10-17-2013, 10:25 AM
  #442
Concordski
Knockoff Jets FTW
 
Concordski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 6,956
vCash: 663
I'd circulate a petition against This Hour Has 22 Minutes because it hasn't been funny in years.

Concordski is offline  
Old
10-17-2013, 10:28 AM
  #443
Free Torts
Registered User
 
Free Torts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,585
vCash: 883
Send a message via MSN to Free Torts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concordski View Post
I'd circulate a petition against This Hour Has 22 Minutes because it hasn't been funny in years.
I'd sign that.

Free Torts is online now  
Old
10-17-2013, 10:30 AM
  #444
Concordski
Knockoff Jets FTW
 
Concordski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 6,956
vCash: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
I'd sign that.
It's not a hatred of Canadian humor, either; when I watch RMR, I'll get a few chuckles, when I watch 22 Minutes, I feel nothing.

Concordski is offline  
Old
10-17-2013, 10:39 AM
  #445
Free Torts
Registered User
 
Free Torts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,585
vCash: 883
Send a message via MSN to Free Torts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concordski View Post
It's not a hatred of Canadian humor, either; when I watch RMR, I'll get a few chuckles, when I watch 22 Minutes, I feel nothing.
22 Minutes hasn't been funny since Mercer left, yet it's stayed on the air for a decade after.

Free Torts is online now  
Old
10-17-2013, 10:40 AM
  #446
Gobias Industries
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Gobias Industries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,373
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
22 Minutes hasn't been funny since Mercer left, yet it's stayed on the air for a decade after.
Welcome to the wonderful world of public funding .

I love parts of the CBC (okay, mostly just Jian Ghomeshi and their radio stations), but I do wish we could get more quality out of them

Gobias Industries is offline  
Old
10-17-2013, 11:19 AM
  #447
Puck
Ninja
 
Puck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Tahiti
Posts: 8,709
vCash: 500
Take out US programming on other Canadian networks and they hold up worse than the CBC. Impose the same content restrictions on other Canadian networks and they would choke on their own vomit.

Puck is offline  
Old
10-17-2013, 11:22 AM
  #448
Free Torts
Registered User
 
Free Torts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,585
vCash: 883
Send a message via MSN to Free Torts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post
Take out US programming on other Canadian networks and they hold up worse than the CBC. Impose the same content restrictions on other Canadian networks and they would choke on their own vomit.
CTV's Canadian programming has been particularly vomitrocious the last few years.

Free Torts is online now  
Old
10-17-2013, 11:25 AM
  #449
Puck
Ninja
 
Puck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Tahiti
Posts: 8,709
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirkP View Post
CTV's Canadian programming has been particularly vomitrocious the last few years.
I like that we can make up new Canadian words that we all understand on the internets though...

Puck is offline  
Old
10-17-2013, 11:41 AM
  #450
Free Torts
Registered User
 
Free Torts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,585
vCash: 883
Send a message via MSN to Free Torts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post
I like that we can make up new Canadian words that we all understand on the internets though...
I gots to be good for something.

Free Torts is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:16 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.