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2013-2014 CHL/NCAA/Euro Prospects thread

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Old
10-08-2013, 06:18 PM
  #501
Grant McCagg
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
I am usually in agreement with you on most points but I am going to have to dig in on Patrick Roy. He was not at any point a highly regarded prospect with any hype surrounding him. I read the Hockey News as though it was my personal bible and Roy was never mentioned as a top prospect. It was stated that the Habs liked him but he was not viewed as anything special by other scouts/organizations. The reason for the article IIRC was due to him leading Sherbrooke to a Calder Cup after taking over for the starting goaltender in the middle of a game due to equipment troubles. It came off more like the team was simply being positive about him rather than anointing him has a potential star. Without the internet and the limited readership of THN there simply wasn't any hype created for Roy. The move to go to Roy felt a lot more like a shot in the dark than the awaited arrival of our goaltending savior.

For those who followed the Habs prospects (very rare back then) Roy wasn't exactly unknown to them as he was a relatively early pick for a goaltender but he was completely eclipsed by the shadow of Svoboda, Corson and Richer who all went before him in the same draft. With Roy's dismal numbers in junior and the art of projecting a goaltenders development being extremely sketchy at best, there wasn't a lot of hope for him other than his brief success in the AHL.

I will grant you(no pun intended) that if this same scenario took place today a Calder Cup run like that would have sent the bandwagoners on this board into a fanboy frenzy but that just wasn't the case back then as less than 5% of hockey fans back then probably read THN and the hype ended there. Perhaps if Svoboda, Corson and Richer weren't casting such a shadow then he would have garnered more attention but his AHL accomplishment were looked at with a lot more skepticism than blind faith. Easily written off as a fluke as Roy didn't appear to have the credentials to sustain and build upon this success.........this was one of many early lessons that I learned about the danger of using stats to form an opinion. Much like many of the more inexperienced posters on this board I remember personally hyping the likes of Mark Pederson, Jose Charbonneau, Alfie Turcotte, Keli Corpse, Pierre Sevigny and Sebastien Bordeleau purely based on stats and hype created from mindless media personalities. The only way to properly form an opinion is to understand how the game is played in the NHL and how it is played at lower levels and understanding what skills are projectable from one to the next. The next step is to watch the players and apply the previously mentioned knowledge. It also helps to know who's opinions to trust in order to help to form a consensus or confirm your findings. The mainstream media does not contain a single person worthy of an opinion on this matter. Bob Mackenzie is well connected and can relay the consensus about a player but he is not a true hockey mind.....he is a gatherer of facts but not an analytical resource.

Anyways Grant......sorry about the rant as I look forward to your posts and respect your opinion even if I sometimes differ from it (not very often) but just had to clarify my stance on the matter.
I think you may have gone overboard. You're really straying off topic. Roy was only one player out of many I listed, and I conceded that the average fan didn't know as much about him as..say..myself. I was making a point in regards to fans not necessarily overhyping players more right after the draft...your rant has absolutely no connection to that.


You recall every article written on Roy 20+ years ago? You are certain that you read and recall verbatim every one ever published? That's hard to believe. Maybe it wasn't the Hockey News where I read it more than once as you seemingly remember every word ever printed in there..but I recall reading about how impressed the organization was with him, and heard it too. I am positive this is not just a figment of my imagination in order to win an argument I don't even want to be a part of... Alas...that's irrelevant..even you will admit that Roy was not hyped when he was drafted..that was the whole point of my original post.

My post was concerning players who were not hyped right after they were drafted, but later got some hype. Patty was very much an afterthought with most fans when he was drafted. I already admitted he wasn't the best example...so why the irrelevant rant?

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Old
10-08-2013, 06:18 PM
  #502
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lolll
Guys, I think I'm a CBus fan now...

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10-08-2013, 06:22 PM
  #503
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http://www.shl.se/shl-arena/38526/

Collberg's assists at 0:47 and 1:53.

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10-08-2013, 06:54 PM
  #504
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I've watched Thrower play A LOT and I've soured on him a bit. I just don't think he's got the hockey IQ to be a really solid defenceman at the NHL level. That being said, he's an athletic guy and has a good package of skills to go along with his frame. He knows where the puck needs to be in the offensive zone and when he's played down-low in the opposing team's zone, he hasn't looked out of place. I'd absolutely be supportive of his move to the wing if it were to happen.
I have seen him only a couple of times but I tend to agree. Athletic, skilled, but he didn't make an impression on me with his work in the defensive zone.
I have no doubt he'll play defense in Vancouver this year and I expect him to be one of their top d-men.
But when he turns pro, it might be worth trying him on the wing if he doesn't adapt quickly.
There is some aggression in him but he's not that big; I'd rather see him hunt in the offensive zone than be hunted in the defensive zone.

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10-08-2013, 08:35 PM
  #505
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Haha, when he speaks (combined with those facial expressions) he really seems like an upper-class d-bag from Stockholm. But I don't think it is his intention, just the way he looks. Ok, this is getting off topic, sorry
pretty sure most players coming out of Europe are upper class

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10-09-2013, 02:09 AM
  #506
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pretty sure most players coming out of Europe are upper class
Most Swedish hockey players come from small towns in Norrland and Småland where there's no upper class to speak of.

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10-09-2013, 08:44 AM
  #507
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I have seen him only a couple of times but I tend to agree. Athletic, skilled, but he didn't make an impression on me with his work in the defensive zone.
I have no doubt he'll play defense in Vancouver this year and I expect him to be one of their top d-men.
But when he turns pro, it might be worth trying him on the wing if he doesn't adapt quickly.
There is some aggression in him but he's not that big; I'd rather see him hunt in the offensive zone than be hunted in the defensive zone.
I hate to say it because he's a good guy, but based on what I saw from the Blades TV show last year, Molleken was out of his depth. Hay has to be a much better coach for Thrower.

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10-09-2013, 10:01 AM
  #508
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http://www.shl.se/shl-arena/38526/

Collberg's assists at 0:47 and 1:53.
Here's a super cool way to see the scoring highlights:

http://www.shl.se/shl-arena/38526/live/

Click on the tab "Sammanfattning", then in the column "play" beside each goal to see the highlight.

Collberg seems to be on a line with Alexander Wennberg, 14th overall in the last NHL draft. Wennberg already has 5 goals on the season (tied for 8th in the league) which augers well for Collberg's ice time. Both players have 1994 birthdays.


Last edited by Sam I Am: 10-09-2013 at 10:11 AM.
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Old
10-09-2013, 10:08 AM
  #509
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I hate to say it because he's a good guy, but based on what I saw from the Blades TV show last year, Molleken was out of his depth. Hay has to be a much better coach for Thrower.
Giants seem to be pretty awful this year, though. It will be good for Thrower to start there under Hay and hopefully get his game turned around. Then maybe if the Giants continue to struggle he'd be a good player for them to move to a contender later on in the season...

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Old
10-09-2013, 10:41 AM
  #510
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We are mainly in agreement on this topic.....at least in the short term. If he struggles again this season though it would be an option that I think should be considered. If he looks like he is going to bust then why not try and turn him into an asset of some sort even if it isn't as desirable as the original projection.

I should point out that I am not in the habit of writing off talented players within two years of drafting them. With d-men however they really need to show a level of understanding and hockey sense or they become real longshot prospects.

Hopefully he can get back on track this season and we can develop him as a d-man. He does have an intriguing skillset that would bring a welcome dimension to our d- corps.
I would be very surprised to see him end up on the wing, if it were me I wouldn't move him to wing even if he struggles with his defensive zone play.

Quote:
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I would argue that we have more depth on defense in the organization than at forward. As for converting a defensemen, we shouldn't forget about the example of Brent Burns.
I don't see what having more depth on defense has to do with this or what Brent Burns has to do with this. The Habs should do what's best for Thrower not try to move players to a different position just because we have more depth at that position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matteus View Post
I have seen him only a couple of times but I tend to agree. Athletic, skilled, but he didn't make an impression on me with his work in the defensive zone.
I have no doubt he'll play defense in Vancouver this year and I expect him to be one of their top d-men.
But when he turns pro, it might be worth trying him on the wing if he doesn't adapt quickly.
There is some aggression in him but he's not that big; I'd rather see him hunt in the offensive zone than be hunted in the defensive zone.
For a 19 year old, he's got good size just lacks some height.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Giants seem to be pretty awful this year, though. It will be good for Thrower to start there under Hay and hopefully get his game turned around. Then maybe if the Giants continue to struggle he'd be a good player for them to move to a contender later on in the season...
I was watching some of the game last night and the giants did not look very good at all. Thrower did see a lot of ice time though so at least that should be good for him.

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Old
10-09-2013, 01:12 PM
  #511
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Do you know who he's playing with ?

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Old
10-09-2013, 02:22 PM
  #512
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The Sags are in town tonight, so I'll try to post my thoughts on Hudon on here after the game, at worst I'll post them tomorrow.

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Old
10-09-2013, 03:20 PM
  #513
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I hate to say it because he's a good guy, but based on what I saw from the Blades TV show last year, Molleken was out of his depth. Hay has to be a much better coach for Thrower.
Molleken was in a worse situation then even Cunneyworth was while he was here. Molleken was coaching a team that was hosting the Memorial Cup, he had problems that he had no solution for and all he could do was ride it out and hope for the best. I think he did a pretty good job, all things considered.

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10-09-2013, 03:35 PM
  #514
montreal
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Molleken was in a worse situation then even Cunneyworth was while he was here. Molleken was coaching a team that was hosting the Memorial Cup, he had problems that he had no solution for and all he could do was ride it out and hope for the best. I think he did a pretty good job, all things considered.
I watched the Blades in the playoffs and the announcers were talking about how poorly prepared the team was (they looked flat out terrible). I don't know the situation that well but in talking with others about the team I have heard some very concerning comments about how things were run. With the way they looked in the playoffs, I would have a very hard time saying he did a pretty good job.

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10-09-2013, 04:01 PM
  #515
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They looked like poo in the memorial cup. Could have put a bunch of frozen turds on the ice and the Blades would have done better.

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10-09-2013, 04:57 PM
  #516
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I don't see what having more depth on defense has to do with this or what Brent Burns has to do with this. The Habs should do what's best for Thrower not try to move players to a different position just because we have more depth at that position.
Brett Burns was simply an example that players can change positions. It happens in other sports all of time but in hockey we seem to want to pigeon hole guys from the time they are bantams.

As for Thrower, the Habs should do what's best for the Habs. If that means keeping Thrower on defense, that is what they should do. If it means a position switch or a trade, then that is what they should do. The idea of moving Thrower to another position isn't because we have depth on defense, it is because he has a skill set that might be ideal for a right winger. The proposal to try him there would be to evaluate him at that position. It's not like the world would come to an end or his development would be permanently damaged by such a move.

The Thrower situation is an example of having an open mind or closing it to any possibilities that break from tradition. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would dig their heels in over an idea like this.

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10-09-2013, 05:22 PM
  #517
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Brett Burns was simply an example that players can change positions. It happens in other sports all of time but in hockey we seem to want to pigeon hole guys from the time they are bantams.

As for Thrower, the Habs should do what's best for the Habs. If that means keeping Thrower on defense, that is what they should do. If it means a position switch or a trade, then that is what they should do. The idea of moving Thrower to another position isn't because we have depth on defense, it is because he has a skill set that might be ideal for a right winger. The proposal to try him there would be to evaluate him at that position. It's not like the world would come to an end or his development would be permanently damaged by such a move.

The Thrower situation is an example of having an open mind or closing it to any possibilities that break from tradition. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would dig their heels in over an idea like this.
It's rare to see players in the NHL move from defense to forward or vice versa, just because Burns did it, doesn't mean it's something the Habs should look to do with Thrower. As for the organization, imo they should do what's best for the prospect not the team, since messing with a prospects development is not a good idea imo.

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10-09-2013, 05:48 PM
  #518
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It's rare to see players in the NHL move from defense to forward or vice versa, just because Burns did it, doesn't mean it's something the Habs should look to do with Thrower. As for the organization, imo they should do what's best for the prospect not the team, since messing with a prospects development is not a good idea imo.
Two factors here...1-he's already shown he can be a very good d-man and 2-d-men are usually more valuable than wingers. I don't see the point of making a switch.

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10-09-2013, 07:23 PM
  #519
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I watched the Blades in the playoffs and the announcers were talking about how poorly prepared the team was (they looked flat out terrible). I don't know the situation that well but in talking with others about the team I have heard some very concerning comments about how things were run. With the way they looked in the playoffs, I would have a very hard time saying he did a pretty good job.
Be thankful you didn't watch them during the bad stretches they had during the regular season because terrible is relative, I thought they looked a lot better during the playoffs then they did earlier in the season.

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10-10-2013, 09:16 AM
  #520
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Two factors here...1-he's already shown he can be a very good d-man and 2-d-men are usually more valuable than wingers. I don't see the point of making a switch.
Same here. Just give him some time for a rebound. I don't see any reason to think he could ever be more than a bottom-6 grinder as a forward, a guy who hits and chips in at best, but those players are nowhere near as hard to come up with as a regular d-man. Put in the effort and display the patience with him on D first and foremost. That's a solid 4 years including this one. I wouldn't even think of switching his position without that investment first.

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10-10-2013, 10:07 AM
  #521
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
Molleken was in a worse situation then even Cunneyworth was while he was here. Molleken was coaching a team that was hosting the Memorial Cup, he had problems that he had no solution for and all he could do was ride it out and hope for the best. I think he did a pretty good job, all things considered.
And I appreciate that aspect too. I just really wasn't impressed with Molleken as a coach during those episodes. His speeches seemed weak and even his conversations outside the room reeked of a guy who was a bit out of his depth. I had no confidence that he knew how - or what - to get through to his players.

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10-10-2013, 12:47 PM
  #522
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Be thankful you didn't watch them during the bad stretches they had during the regular season because terrible is relative, I thought they looked a lot better during the playoffs then they did earlier in the season.
i saw them a number of times throughout the season, imo they were way worse in the playoffs then at any other time I saw them.

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10-10-2013, 03:02 PM
  #523
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i saw them a number of times throughout the season, imo they were way worse in the playoffs then at any other time I saw them.
I sure see the world differently then you. I thought they played a terrible, crude hockey during the season and that kind of hockey wasn't going to take them far in the playoffs and it didn't. I just think this blaming the coach for what happened with the Blades isn't right.

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10-10-2013, 03:28 PM
  #524
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I sure see the world differently then you. I thought they played a terrible, crude hockey during the season and that kind of hockey wasn't going to take them far in the playoffs and it didn't. I just think this blaming the coach for what happened with the Blades isn't right.
The Blades had bad, ok and great stretches in the regular season (something like 19 wins in a row). In the playoffs they looked bad. In the Memorial Cup, because they were well rested and had almost no injuries, they came out hard and played 3 lines and 5 D for most of the Mem Cup. As well because they were a team of 19 year olds, they were quite physical and tried to use their size to their advantage. They actually played pretty well, they were just outmatched skill wise.

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10-10-2013, 04:29 PM
  #525
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Rough game for Hudon last night, he did good overall offensively, but you could see he was frustrated, as yesterday's loss to Sherbrooke was their 4th straight defeat. Took a very bad penalty at the end of the 2nd. Desrosiers stood on his head all night and stole him a couple of goals for sure.

I know +/- is can be misleading, but -3 on the night is unacceptable. He might also be frustrated because he knows he's going to get traded before Xmas.

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