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Top 60 centers of All Time Rules Discussion - Proposed Rules in Post 100

View Poll Results: Top 50 or 60 centers of all time?
Top 50 centers of all time 17 37.78%
Top 60 centers of all time 28 62.22%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

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08-14-2013, 02:02 PM
  #1
TheDevilMadeMe
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Top 60 centers of All Time Rules Discussion - Proposed Rules in Post 100

The first thing to decide, as always, is how long we want the list to be?

I definitely think a list of 40 (to match the goaltenders list) is too short, given the number of talented centers in history.

So do we want the best 50 centers of all time?

Or do we want the best 60 centers of all time to match the length of the defensemen project?


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-19-2013 at 11:17 PM.
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08-14-2013, 02:04 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Here's what I said in the other thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by me
I quickly threw together a top 80-90 list of centers based loosely on the ATD just to get a rough idea of how such a list would look, and it's amazing the level of talent that is in the 40-60 range. You're talking consensus HHOFers like Dale Hawerchuk and Mike Modano who are likely on the outside looking in if you stop at 40.

Just look at the HOH Top 100 list. Counting Taylor, there are already 34 centers on the list! Stopping at 40 barely adds any new players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
To add to this, according to the HHOF's website, there are 79 centers, 42 left wings, 39 right wings, 77 defensemen, 19 rovers, and 36 goaltenders in the Hall of Fame. Some of their classifications of ppsitions are a bit weird, but it gives a rough idea as to the ratios.

I think the Top 100 lists have a similar ratio.

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08-14-2013, 02:16 PM
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amnesiac
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Id go with 60

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08-14-2013, 02:23 PM
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There are so many great centers I would say the more the merrier.

Not that I know if or how much of my involvement there will be.

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08-14-2013, 02:44 PM
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tarheelhockey
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60 sounds good to me too.

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08-14-2013, 02:48 PM
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eddytheeagle20
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I think 50 would be good after that people will begin to plug in players

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08-14-2013, 02:48 PM
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quoipourquoi
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No matter how long it goes, I just don't want to add more than four to the final list at a time.

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08-14-2013, 02:55 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
No matter how long it goes, I just don't want to add more than four to the final list at a time.
Then getting to 60 would take 15 rounds... that's an awful long time.

Perhaps add 4 per round for the first 5 rounds (to get to 20) and 5 per round afterwards? Then you'd have 13 rounds total, which I think is a little more manageable.

The defenseman project had 12 rounds of 5.

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08-14-2013, 03:37 PM
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bigbuffalo313
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60 for centers

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08-14-2013, 05:31 PM
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Dennis Bonvie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The first thing to decide, as always, is how long we want the list to be?

I definitely think a list of 40 (to match the goaltenders list) is too short, given the number of talented centers in history.

So do we want the best 50 centers of all time?

Or do we want the best 60 centers of all time to match the length of the defensemen project?
I'd say 50.

Twice as many Dmen on the ice as centers so it shouldn't be the same number.

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08-14-2013, 05:42 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Poll added.

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08-14-2013, 05:47 PM
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ted1971
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Top 60.

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08-14-2013, 05:48 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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For reference, the HOH Top 100 list from 2008 has 34 centers (including Taylor), 25 defensemen (including Clapper), 16 goaltenders, 13 right wings, and 12 left wings.


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08-14-2013, 11:22 PM
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tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Then getting to 60 would take 15 rounds... that's an awful long time.

Perhaps add 4 per round for the first 5 rounds (to get to 20) and 5 per round afterwards? Then you'd have 13 rounds total, which I think is a little more manageable.

The defenseman project had 12 rounds of 5.
This sways me to think we should go with 50. I'd rather have a shorter list if it means fewer inductees per round.

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08-14-2013, 11:35 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
This sways me to think we should go with 50. I'd rather have a shorter list if it means fewer inductees per round.
I guess at 50, what would we do? 10 rounds of 4, plus 2 rounds of 5 for 12 rounds total?

We can always do 15 rounds of 4 to get to 60 if we think the board has the attention span for it.

The 2008 Top 100 project had 20 rounds of 5, but they had horrible voting turnout by the end.

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08-15-2013, 09:55 AM
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Hawkey Town 18
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This is a little off topic but related to the project...For those players that spent time at other positions we will be giving them full credit for those seasons right? An example would be mark messier and his time at lw. I would like to hear some thoughts on this so everyone is on the same page.

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08-15-2013, 01:54 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
This is a little off topic but related to the project...For those players that spent time at other positions we will be giving them full credit for those seasons right? An example would be mark messier and his time at lw. I would like to hear some thoughts on this so everyone is on the same page.
Basically, do we only give Mario Lemieux credit for 5 of his 6 Art Rosses, since he played LW for the majority of 1996-97 due largely to his back problems? I think going that route is silly and it defeats the purpose of determining a guy's primary position in the other thread.

As others have said "the 50/60 greatest players of all time who are identified as centers"

Also, more people need to vote.

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08-15-2013, 02:35 PM
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tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I guess at 50, what would we do? 10 rounds of 4, plus 2 rounds of 5 for 12 rounds total?

We can always do 15 rounds of 4 to get to 60 if we think the board has the attention span for it.
I'd be up for doing it either way, TBH, as long as we avoid the problem of players squeaking in by plurality despite having barely been talked about. I strongly prefer a model that focuses discussion toward a smaller number of candidates per round, allowing us to really pick their careers apart and do in-depth comparisons.

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08-15-2013, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Basically, do we only give Mario Lemieux credit for 5 of his 6 Art Rosses, since he played LW for the majority of 1996-97 due largely to his back problems? I think going that route is silly and it defeats the purpose of determining a guy's primary position in the other thread.

As others have said "the 50/60 greatest players of all time who are identified as centers"

Also, more people need to vote.
I agree - once someone is categorized at a position (by whatever method), their entire body of work should be up for grabs.

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08-15-2013, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I agree - once someone is categorized at a position (by whatever method), their entire body of work should be up for grabs.
By "entire body of work" does that Include Junior & Minor-Pro / WHA and in the case of Europeans Elite League & International play from the late 40's on?

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08-15-2013, 02:52 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I'd be up for doing it either way, TBH, as long as we avoid the problem of players squeaking in by plurality despite having barely been talked about. I strongly prefer a model that focuses discussion toward a smaller number of candidates per round, allowing us to really pick their careers apart and do in-depth comparisons.
Admins could be given more discretion about the number of players to add in a round when there is a break in Round 2 voting.

In the defenseman project, we added 5 guys per round. But look at round 3:
PlayerTotal11th12th13th14th15th16th17th18th19th20thnone
Brad Park17666340200000
King Clancy16748231111000
Paul Coffey15563322130010
Pierre Pilote14922555010100
Sprague Cleghorn9910315123221
Al MacInnis9610222414320
Tim Horton9410203344310
Earl Seibert8001110551241
Scott Stevens7701012315710
Chris Pronger5000021113364
Brian Leetch12000000200415

We could have a rule that if more than X number of votes separate spots 4 and 5 and less than Y number of votes separate spots 5 and 6, then only the top 4 are added that round.

I'm not sure what to do in situations like Vote 7 though - where 5th place was way behind 4th place, but was still a fair amount over 6th:

PlayerTotal31st32nd33rd34th35th36th37th38th39th40thnone
Jack Stewart15984203110000
Guy Lapointe14807343110000
Scott Niedermayer12042122044000
Marcel Pronovost11131213322101
Lionel Conacher8530221210215
Zdeno Chara7300312232024
Alexei Kasatonov6810221300316
J.C. Tremblay6701210341016
Jacques Laperriere6302013014125
Butch Bouchard4301120100329
Rob Blake4000021013237
Larry Murphy32010101101410
Carl Brewer24001001022112
Ebbie Goodfellow18000001014211

The other way to look at it is that close votes are guaranteed to happen at some point, and if you keep trying to avoid them earlier, you'll be stuck with them later anyway.

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08-15-2013, 02:52 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
By "entire body of work" does that Include Junior & Minor-Pro / WHA and in the case of Europeans Elite League & International play from the late 40's on?
Sure, why not?

But I assume most of us don't really care what a guy did in junior and minor-pro at least

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08-15-2013, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
By "entire body of work" does that Include Junior & Minor-Pro / WHA and in the case of Europeans Elite League & International play from the late 40's on?
Yes in my opinion (although appropriately discounted/augmented if necessary).

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08-15-2013, 02:58 PM
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ted1971
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Can't wait for this to start.

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08-15-2013, 02:59 PM
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ted1971
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When can We start voting?

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