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Old
08-17-2013, 09:00 AM
  #76
Srsly
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Originally Posted by JimEIV View Post
Problem is he has been healthy for a full season once in the last 6 years.
I don't recall stating that he has been. Great way to skim my post and quote me out of context though. I never stated that he was worth a top10 pick. I just stated that his value was higher than when we acquired him.

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08-17-2013, 09:13 AM
  #77
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No he really isn't...if Lupul had to be packaged with Gardiner and pick last time he was traded for Beauchemin how in the world is he worth a 1st now? If anything the injury concerns from back then have been validated so there is no way his value has risen all that much.

I'm not trying to be negative on Lupul, he is a very good offensive player when he is healthy...but he's had a lot problems staying healthy and he doesn't really bring a full range of other attributes beyond offense. I think you are drastically over valuing Lupul. That isn't at all meant to be a knock on the player though.
He has been a ppg player since he was traded...Big difference in value now from then. A bit ridiculous to claim he has so little value.

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08-17-2013, 09:29 AM
  #78
Tony Clifton Leaf
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Originally Posted by RSeen View Post
Both of them alone are worth much more than Lupul.
I was saying either of them, and that's why I said it wouldn't make sense for you guys.

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Old
08-17-2013, 10:10 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Srsly View Post
A healthy Lupul would be top10 in the NHL in scoring
In the last 4 years, he has missed 59, 28, 16, and 32 games. That's 46% of all possible games. You can't say "if he was healthy" because he's never healthy.

Second, let's be real here. Lupul's best season was 67 points in 66 games. He did that ONCE. I'm not counting a 16 game season as a PPG season.

19 players were PPG or better last year, minimum 36 games (75% season.) 8 players were PPG or better in 2011-12, minimum 60 games. 14 players were PPG or better in 2010-11, again minimum 60 games.

To say Lupul would be top 10 in scoring, after ONE PPG season in his career, after ONE semi-healthy season in the last 4 years, is a bit much. I'm not doubting his offensive skills, but let's not exaggerate here. He needs to produce more PPG seasons and stay healthy to make that claim.

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08-17-2013, 10:21 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by JimEIV View Post
I'm sure he isn't the same player he was 3 years ago, but he is still missing games at the same rate he was 3 years ago and that is why he was so cheap 3 years ago....that and his lack of defense...so maybe he is a more well rounded player today but a guy who is a question mark for 60 games in a season significantly brings down his value.
I'm not arguing that his value takes a hit because of the injuries. What i'm arguing is you or someone else claiming that Lupul is worth the same today as he was when Anaheim traded him.

Which is flat out wrong.

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08-17-2013, 10:41 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by OverWatch View Post
I'm not arguing that his value takes a hit because of the injuries. What i'm arguing is you or someone else claiming that Lupul is worth the same today as he was when Anaheim traded him.

Which is flat out wrong.
It was me. And my point was you got him so cheap for two reasons, injuries and a lack of a defensive game.

How much of that has really changed?

I understand he's average a point a game and gave him credit initially for his offensive abilities but in any given year he is a long shot to play much more than 60 games.

How much would you give up for that? You certainly wouldn't give up young promising players for that, would you?

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Old
08-17-2013, 11:20 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by JimEIV View Post
It was me. And my point was you got him so cheap for two reasons, injuries and a lack of a defensive game.

How much of that has really changed?

I understand he's average a point a game and gave him credit initially for his offensive abilities but in any given year he is a long shot to play much more than 60 games.

How much would you give up for that? You certainly wouldn't give up young promising players for that, would you?
I agree that he is a massive risk. Freak injuries seem to be the norm with Lups which is a shame because he is a great player.

Regardless Toronto isn't going to trade him nor can they afford to after losing so much depth this offseason.

Lupul "needs" to stay healthy this year because if he can't Toronto will miss the playoffs for sure imo. There is no room for error this year when it comes to Toronto's top 6.

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Old
08-17-2013, 12:00 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by JimEIV View Post
No he really isn't...if Lupul had to be packaged with Gardiner and pick last time he was traded for Beauchemin how in the world is he worth a 1st now? If anything the injury concerns from back then have been validated so there is no way his value has risen all that much.

I'm not trying to be negative on Lupul, he is a very good offensive player when he is healthy...but he's had a lot problems staying healthy and he doesn't really bring a full range of other attributes beyond offense. I think you are drastically over valuing Lupul. That isn't at all meant to be a knock on the player though.
hmm if this logic is correct, i better get on the phone to Chicago and offer a random AHLer for Sharp!

Actually... maybe the Devils should trade Brodeur for 5 first rounders right now, because Im sure ten years ago someone would have glady paid that for him!

Players value fluctuates. Three years ago many thought Lupul would never play again. When he returned, many figured he'd never get back to his former self. He surprised everyone by coming back beyter than ever. In some ways his story is similar to Gary Roberts.

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Old
08-17-2013, 12:06 PM
  #84
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Goodness me, Lupul played just around a full season of games at a point per game pace* guys. That's Jim's point. Is one full season of games sufficient to supplant the last 6 years before that?

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Old
08-17-2013, 12:24 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEIV View Post
It was me. And my point was you got him so cheap for two reasons, injuries and a lack of a defensive game.

How much of that has really changed?

I understand he's average a point a game and gave him credit initially for his offensive abilities but in any given year he is a long shot to play much more than 60 games.

How much would you give up for that? You certainly wouldn't give up young promising players for that, would you?
Depends how badly you need scoring. To ignore Lupul turning into a front-line player is ridiculous though. Trading for him isn't even remotely the same conversation it was when he was a salary dump by the Ducks.

If you think Lupul will go back to being a 50 point secondary piece and the last 85 games were a fluke then fair enough, but I don't hear you saying that.

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Old
08-17-2013, 01:11 PM
  #86
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I'm not sure why all you guys are trying to justify how good Lupul is? I never questioned his ability... the real question is what is a ppg player that has only played a little more than half the games in any of the last 5 of 6 seasons worth....

There is no need to get defensive nobody is disrespecting Lupul. But that is a significant factor in determining his value.

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Old
08-17-2013, 02:00 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by JimEIV View Post
No he really isn't...if Lupul had to be packaged with Gardiner and pick last time he was traded for Beauchemin how in the world is he worth a 1st now? If anything the injury concerns from back then have been validated so there is no way his value has risen all that much.

I'm not trying to be negative on Lupul, he is a very good offensive player when he is healthy...but he's had a lot problems staying healthy and he doesn't really bring a full range of other attributes beyond offense. I think you are drastically over valuing Lupul. That isn't at all meant to be a knock on the player though.
This is one of the dumbest responses I have read. Have you watched Lupul since he's been traded? Do you not see the difference in his value right now? Larsson has potential to be a franchise d-man for his club (so they say...) but he hasn't done anything yet. In fact, he's probably been a complete let down. However, he's so young that it's expected.

With Marty's age, I'd say Corey is the untouchable devil right now, which you got for a first round pick. Does that mean he's worth a top 10 pick coming back? No. It doesn't. His value is far greater to the devils now. You see how that works? You can't compare a players value by a trade made years ago. I'm not saying there's not a risk with Lupul here, but his value is higher than it was when he was traded.

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Old
08-17-2013, 02:31 PM
  #88
JimEIV
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Originally Posted by TGWL View Post
Have you watched Lupul since he's been traded?
If I watched 50% of Leafs game in the in the last two years I would've missed most of all of Lupul....so you really you haven't watched him all that much either in the last two years...

Unless you mean watching him eat hotdogs in the press box 50% of time

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Old
08-17-2013, 02:34 PM
  #89
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If Henrique is considered a franchise cornerstone, this franchise is in the dumps.

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08-17-2013, 04:22 PM
  #90
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Franson stays....Henrique no thanks. I would rather see Phaneuf for Statsny as both are upcoming UFA's and we get a 1C who needs a change of scenery to put with Kessel's and JVR. We then go with a defence of Franson and Fraser, Reilly and Ranger, Gunnarson and Gardiner. We have the FF, GG and RR pairings with all kinds of up and coming guys in Finn, Percy, Blacker, Granberg, Etc. the elusive 1C is IMO more important right now than Phanuef on an expiring contract, questionable leadership abilities and large demands coming off his Sochi invite.

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Old
08-17-2013, 04:28 PM
  #91
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Leafs D without Phaneuf is...not that good.

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Old
08-17-2013, 04:29 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Zajacs Bowl Cut View Post
Leafs D without Phaneuf is...not that good.
That's putting it very generously but yeah... not that good

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Old
08-17-2013, 11:48 PM
  #93
None Shall Pass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zajacs Bowl Cut View Post
Leafs D without Phaneuf is...not that good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
That's putting it very generously but yeah... not that good
Well,
Instead of NJ trading a good forward which we need for Toronto's good D which they also need,

Why don't we

Just spitballing here

Propose a trade of one of NJ's numerous good defensive prospects, or roster players if you want some experience, for one of Toronto's forward prospects, or roster players if there's a surplus.

Just an idea.

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Old
08-17-2013, 11:57 PM
  #94
Tony Clifton Leaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by None Shall Pass View Post
Well,
Instead of NJ trading a good forward which we need for Toronto's good D which they also need,

Why don't we

Just spitballing here

Propose a trade of one of NJ's numerous good defensive prospects, or roster players if you want some experience, for one of Toronto's forward prospects, or roster players if there's a surplus.

Just an idea.
The only areas the Leafs have a "surplus" in, are perhaps defensive prospects (Rielly, Percy, Blacker, Finn, Granberg, etc), and depth d-men (Liles, Ranger, Fraser, Holzer, Brennan, Blacker, etc). With our cap situation we really aren't in a position to be making moves right now unless it's unloading a depth defense man for a prospect or a pick.

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Old
08-18-2013, 02:18 PM
  #95
TGWL
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Originally Posted by JimEIV View Post
If I watched 50% of Leafs game in the in the last two years I would've missed most of all of Lupul....so you really you haven't watched him all that much either in the last two years...

Unless you mean watching him eat hotdogs in the press box 50% of time
And if you watched games involving the leafs 2 seasons ago, you would've seen him in the majority of them.

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