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what would ottawa need to give for gagne from philly

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Old
06-28-2005, 01:37 PM
  #51
Gus Fring
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenadyan
Back to the original question:

Keep in mind this is not regarding that fact that one is a winger and one a center, but if the Sens want Gagne, then I suppose Spezza would have to be going the other way to Philly.
That would be the dumbest move ottawa ever made
It would never happen and im pretty sure you know that


Last edited by Gus Fring: 06-28-2005 at 01:45 PM.
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06-28-2005, 01:43 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by MojoJojo
So would you take Gonchar over Lindstrom? If Offense is more valuable, and Gonchar provides more offense, clearly he is the more valuable player, right? I know I'm comparing forwards to defensemen, but the point is still valid. Plenty of players can learn to play good defense. Elite defensive wingers, guys who can stay with the top players in the league, are not common though.
That's about the worst example you could possibly use, because the comparison between Havlat and Gagne isn't even close to the comparison between Gonchar and Lidstrom. And Lidstrom has outscored Gonchar in most NHL seasons.

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06-28-2005, 01:44 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by hossa-the-future
That would ber the dumbest move ottawa ever made
It would never happen and im pretty sure you know that
Not saying it would happen. You asked the question. I gave my opinion. I'm sure Ottawa would never do that trade. I'm also sure that Philly isn't interested in moving Gagne unless it's for something that knocks their socks off.

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06-28-2005, 01:48 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenadyan
Not saying it would happen. You asked the question. I gave my opinion. I'm sure Ottawa would never do that trade. I'm also sure that Philly isn't interested in moving Gagne unless it's for something that knocks their socks off.
Not saying YOU said that either just saying if ottawa did that it WOULD be dumb

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06-28-2005, 01:48 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
That's about the worst example you could possibly use, because the comparison between Havlat and Gagne isn't even close to the comparison between Gonchar and Lidstrom. And Lidstrom has outscored Gonchar in most NHL seasons.
Fine, you look at most seasons, I'll look at the last 3 years.

Lidstrom:
2001-02 78 9 50 59
2002-03 82 18 44 62
2003-04 81 10 28 38

Gonchar:
2001-02 76 26 33 59
2002-03 82 18 49 67
2003-04 71 11 47 58

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06-28-2005, 01:53 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by LadyByngJeanRatelle
Fine, you look at most seasons, I'll look at the last 3 years.

Lidstrom:
2001-02 78 9 50 59
2002-03 82 18 44 62
2003-04 81 10 28 38

Gonchar:
2001-02 76 26 33 59
2002-03 82 18 49 67
2003-04 71 11 47 58
Wow 3 years, what a great, revealing sample. Figures a Bruins fan would come back with a lame response like that.

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06-28-2005, 01:56 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Sens4Cup
Oh, I forgot, the Flyers won the cup last season right? Oh wait that's not right. And who beat the Flyers in 01-02 and 02-03? Oh yeah that's right, the Sens. And who's gonna beat the hell out of the Flyers next season, and for the next 10 years? Oh yeah, it'll be the Sens. And why is that? Well to start with the Flyers play boring defensive garbage hockey. While the Sens are the NHL's top scoring team. The Flyers preach defence with no offence while the Sens have both. And obviously the Flyers fans haven't heard that you can't teach offence but you can teach defence. So keep your two way players, and your boring lame coach, cause the Sens will still kick the hell out of your team every team they meet in the playoffs!
What an amazingly arrogant post. You know, in 01-02 when Bill Barber was the head coach of the Flyers, it was the Sens who were the trappers and the Flyers who were the much more offensively gifted team. It was the Sentors defense which killed us that year. After the Senators offense beat us in 02/03, your team was knocked out by the New Jersey Devils, the most defensive minded team in the East. Then what happened in 03/04? 1st round exit after losing to the Leafs, whom we beat to go the the ECF.

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06-28-2005, 01:59 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoJojo
So would you take Gonchar over Lidstrom? If Offense is more valuable, and Gonchar provides more offense, clearly he is the more valuable player, right? I know I'm comparing forwards to defensemen, but the point is still valid. Plenty of players can learn to play good defense. Elite defensive wingers, guys who can stay with the top players in the league, are not common though.
No. 1st of all... their production has been nearly identical. So I see Lidstrom's additional defensive prowess as more of a benefit than Gagne's.
Also... I think in general, we should put a lot more stock in the defensive abilities of goalies and defensemen than the defensive abilities of forwards.

2nd... it's easier to match forwards to specific situations. Whether it be special teams or line match-ups. There are more of them, so they can afford to be a little more one-dimensional.
If you were to ask me whether I'd rather have Havlat & Schaefer or Gagne & Gagne for special teams and line match-ups... I would choose Havlat and Schaefer.

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06-28-2005, 02:03 PM
  #59
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Keep in mind this is not regarding that fact that one is a winger and one a center, but if the Sens want Gagne, then I suppose Spezza would have to be going the other way to Philly.
Why would Spezza be going the other way? Are Carter and Pitkanen coming along with Gagne?

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06-28-2005, 02:05 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
Wow 3 years, what a great, revealing sample. Figures a Bruins fan would come back with a lame response like that.
Hey you made the statement, I proved you wrong. Who's lame? The stats say Gonchar's the better offensive player. 3 years, yeah but it's the latest 3 years, which gives you an accurate look.

Check your stats b/f you make your statements.

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06-28-2005, 02:13 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyByngJeanRatelle
Hey you made the statement, I proved you wrong. Who's lame? The stats say Gonchar's the better offensive player. 3 years, yeah but it's the latest 3 years, which gives you an accurate look.

Check your stats b/f you make your statements.
Gonchar: 41 30 21 31 54 57 59 67 58

Lidstrom: 67 57 59 57 73 71 59 62 38

I said most. 6/9 with 1 tie sounds like "most" to me. And I didn't even use Gonchar's rookie year since he only played 31 games. Perhaps YOU should have checked the stats.

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06-28-2005, 02:14 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot
Why would Spezza be going the other way? Are Carter and Pitkanen coming along with Gagne?


This thread is great. I can't decide who are the bigger homers, sensfans or flyerfans.

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06-28-2005, 02:18 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
Gonchar: 41 30 21 31 54 57 59 67 58

Lidstrom: 67 57 59 57 73 71 59 62 38

I said most. 6/9 with 1 tie sounds like "most" to me. And I didn't even use Gonchar's rookie year since he only played 31 games. Perhaps YOU should have checked the stats.
If you want to go by stats 6-9 years ago fine. I'll still use the last 3. Gives a better read on players today as opposed to yesterday.

According to your stats theory, John Leclair is the superior offensive player to Daniel Alfredsson. Do I need to show the stats to prove it?


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06-28-2005, 02:20 PM
  #64
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I guess you want to continue to lose to that "prissy girl" in the playoffs.

a) WHO beat whom last time around in the playoffs?...and...

b) Havlat is a non-factor in any best-of-7 game series.

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06-28-2005, 02:24 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBrown21
I guess you want to continue to lose to that "prissy girl" in the playoffs.

a) WHO beat whom last time around in the playoffs?...and...

b) Havlat is a non-factor in any best-of-7 game series.
Actually, Ottawa did beat Philadelphia that last two times they faced each other in the playoffs. The first series Ottawa beat Philadelphia in 5 games and the second time around, Ottawa beat Philadelphia in 6

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06-28-2005, 02:25 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
Wow 3 years, what a great, revealing sample. Figures a Bruins fan would come back with a lame response like that.
He proved you wrong, plain and simple. The last three years are the best way to compare players because who cares if Lidstrom got say 100 points 5 years ago and Gonchar only got say 50. It's not relevant because that's 5 years ago. Here are there career stats for PPG:

Lidstrom - 0.71 ppg
Gonchar - 0.64 ppg

Taking into consideration that Lidstrom has played 1016 games compared to Gonchar's 669 games, you can't really compare the two very much. But keep in mind that Gonchar plays a more physical game than Lidstrom, while Lidstrom plays a more complete game.

Looking at the last 5 years, look who's the better offensive player:

404 games for Lidstrom, 303 points - 0.75 ppg
378 games for Gonchar, 295 points - 0.78 ppg

So comparing the two, over the last 5 years, Gonchar has been a better offensive player, played more physical, while playing on worse teams.

Lidstrom is a FAR better defenseman than Gonchar, but don't say that he's been a better offensive player over the last little while before looking at his stats. BTW, as Gonchar gets older, I think he'll be close to Lidstrom's PPG ratings.

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06-28-2005, 02:25 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Actually, Ottawa did beat Philadelphia that last two times they faced each other in the playoffs. The first series Ottawa beat Philadelphia in 5 games and the second time around, Ottawa beat Philadelphia in 6
Playoffs:

Ottawa < Toronto < Philly < Ottawa < Toronto < Philly < and so on and so on

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06-28-2005, 02:28 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins4Ever
He proved you wrong, plain and simple. The last three years are the best way to compare players because who cares if Lidstrom got say 100 points 5 years ago and Gonchar only got say 50. It's not relevant because that's 5 years ago. Here are there career stats for PPG:

Lidstrom - 0.71 ppg
Gonchar - 0.64 ppg

Taking into consideration that Lidstrom has played 1016 games compared to Gonchar's 669 games, you can't really compare the two very much. But keep in mind that Gonchar plays a more physical game than Lidstrom, while Lidstrom plays a more complete game.

Looking at the last 5 years, look who's the better offensive player:

404 games for Lidstrom, 303 points - 0.75 ppg
378 games for Gonchar, 295 points - 0.78 ppg

So comparing the two, over the last 5 years, Gonchar has been a better offensive player, played more physical, while playing on worse teams.

Lidstrom is a FAR better defenseman than Gonchar, but don't say that he's been a better offensive player over the last little while before looking at his stats. BTW, as Gonchar gets older, I think he'll be close to Lidstrom's PPG ratings.
I guess I missed the proclamation from God that said 3 years is the magical cutoff for comparing hockey players, whereby anything more is using data that's too old, and anything less is not a big enough sample.

By the way, the idea that Gonchar plays more physically than Lidstrom is a joke. Playing physically does not just mean throwing open ice hits.

And you keep claiming that he proved me wrong, when he did no such thing. My original statement is still true and is supported by the data.

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06-28-2005, 02:29 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyByngJeanRatelle
Playoffs:

Ottawa < Toronto < Philly < Ottawa < Toronto < Philly < and so on and so on
Weird little triangle that one is.

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06-28-2005, 02:30 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBrown21
I guess you want to continue to lose to that "prissy girl" in the playoffs.

a) WHO beat whom last time around in the playoffs?...and...

b) Havlat is a non-factor in any best-of-7 game series.
I guess you don't know much playoff history. The Senators have easily dispatched the Flyers the last two playoffs those teams have met, and Havlat has been effective in both series, moreso than just about any Flyers player anyway.

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06-28-2005, 02:34 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Bruins4Ever
But keep in mind that Gonchar plays a more physical game than Lidstrom
Ok, wait a second here. I thought the knock on Gonchar was that he didn't play physical for his size and that he was making too much money for a team that was cutting the budget with the sole purpose of intentionally becoming non-competitive.

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06-28-2005, 02:34 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins4Ever
He proved you wrong, plain and simple. The last three years are the best way to compare players because who cares if Lidstrom got say 100 points 5 years ago and Gonchar only got say 50. It's not relevant because that's 5 years ago. Here are there career stats for PPG:

Lidstrom - 0.71 ppg
Gonchar - 0.64 ppg

Taking into consideration that Lidstrom has played 1016 games compared to Gonchar's 669 games, you can't really compare the two very much. But keep in mind that Gonchar plays a more physical game than Lidstrom, while Lidstrom plays a more complete game.

Looking at the last 5 years, look who's the better offensive player:

404 games for Lidstrom, 303 points - 0.75 ppg
378 games for Gonchar, 295 points - 0.78 ppg

So comparing the two, over the last 5 years, Gonchar has been a better offensive player, played more physical, while playing on worse teams.

Lidstrom is a FAR better defenseman than Gonchar, but don't say that he's been a better offensive player over the last little while before looking at his stats. BTW, as Gonchar gets older, I think he'll be close to Lidstrom's PPG ratings.
I'm not sure I'd agree that Gonchar is more physical than Lidstrom. Lidstrom's physical game is underrated. Sure, he is no Scott Stevens. But, his awesome skating and positioning are so good that he doesn't need to initiate that much. In his own way though, he is a very gritty guy. He always has his body between the skater and the net, and does not hesitate to go to the high traffic ares of the ice.

However, I think you are correct that Gonchar is the superior offensive player.

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06-28-2005, 02:35 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
I guess I missed the proclamation from God that said 3 years is the magical cutoff for comparing hockey players, whereby anything more is using data that's too old, and anything less is not a big enough sample.

By the way, the idea that Gonchar plays more physically than Lidstrom is a joke. Playing physically does not just mean throwing open ice hits.

And you keep claiming that he proved me wrong, when he did no such thing. My original statement is still true and is supported by the data.
Yes, he proved you wrong on the three year marker, I proved you wrong on the 5 year marker. Who cares what he did more than 5 years ago because it's not relevant now. Also, by saying that Lidstrom has outscored Gonchar in most seasons is a flawed comment because Lidstrom has been plaiyng in the NHL for more years than Gonchar by 3. I'd also like to add that Washington had no blueline while Gonchar was there, while Lidstrom played on the powerhouse Red Wings. If you put Gonchar on the Wings, and Lidstrom on the Capitals, Gonchar would be over 70 points every year while Lidstrom would get 50 tops and be forced to play more physically.

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06-28-2005, 02:36 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
I guess I missed the proclamation from God that said 3 years is the magical cutoff for comparing hockey players, whereby anything more is using data that's too old, and anything less is not a big enough sample.

By the way, the idea that Gonchar plays more physically than Lidstrom is a joke. Playing physically does not just mean throwing open ice hits.

And you keep claiming that he proved me wrong, when he did no such thing. My original statement is still true and is supported by the data.
OK fine, so would I be wrong if I said John Leclair is the superior offensive player to Daniel Alfredsson???

Leclair 55,28,51,12,77,90,87,97,97
Alfie 80,79,71,70,59,33,45,71,61

If you go by stats 5 years ago, Leclair for sure. You go by stats from the last 3 years (like most knowledgeable hockey fans), it's Alfie.

I love when some people are wrong and they just keep coming back for more.

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06-28-2005, 02:39 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
I'm not sure I'd agree that Gonchar is more physical than Lidstrom. Lidstrom's physical game is underrated. Sure, he is no Scott Stevens. But, his awesome skating and positioning are so good that he doesn't need to initiate that much. In his own way though, he is a very gritty guy. He always has his body between the skater and the net, and does not hesitate to go to the high traffic ares of the ice.

However, I think you are correct that Gonchar is the superior offensive player.
Gonchar isn't a big hitter either, but he doesn't shy away from physical contact. He won't go out of his way for the mammoth hit, much as Lidstrom doesn't, but everytime I've seen Lidstrom line up for a hit, he either steps away at the last second, or he just slows the guy down and doesn't knock him over. Gonchar's not a big hitter at all, but I'd say he plays a more physical game than Lidstrom.

Offensively - Gonchar>Lidstrom
Physicality - Gonchar>Lidstrom
Defensive Play - Lidstrom>>Gonchar
Leadership - Lidstrom>Gonchar
Overall Play - Lidstrom>>Gonchar

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