HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Glenn Hall VS Terry Sawchuk

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-08-2013, 06:14 PM
  #1
JFA87-66-99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,312
vCash: 500
Glenn Hall VS Terry Sawchuk

Can you guys tell me who was better. I've seen that Glenn Hall and Terry Sawchuck were ranked #4-#5 in the HOH top 40 goaltender project. I've never really seen any all-time ranking that ever had Glenn Hall ranked over Sawchuck. Maybe you guys can fill me in?

JFA87-66-99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2013, 06:40 PM
  #2
tony d
Ours for next 7 yrs.
 
tony d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind A Tree
Country: Canada
Posts: 35,798
vCash: 500
Give me Terry Sawchuk 10 times out of 10. In fact on my all-time goalies list it goes Roy Sawchuk Hasek with Hall battling it out with Dryden for #6.

__________________
tony d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2013, 06:44 PM
  #3
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,045
vCash: 500
Some substandard playoff performances with the underacheiving Hawks in the 1960s is what separates Hall from either one of Plante or Sawchuk from that era in my opinion. Sawchuk had this ability to steal a series from you as late as 1967 in his career. Hall didn't become the starter until Sawchuk was traded in Detroit if that tells you anything.

Hall is no worse than below Brodeur though, and that means I'd pull Hall at #6.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2013, 06:48 PM
  #4
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,863
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Give me Terry Sawchuk 10 times out of 10. In fact on my all-time goalies list it goes Roy Sawchuk Hasek with Hall battling it out with Dryden for #6.
I believe he was looking for the general opinion of those who did the most of the work and the voting in that project. I was not a voter, but i took much part when it came to Glenn Hall and the result came from the following, in rough: Glenn Hall dominated Sawchuk when it came to off-season All-Star Team selections, and their careers almost fully overlapped eachother. Sawchuk had a great peak in the postseason in the beginning of the fifties, though on an all-time great team, but have traditionally been seen as more clutch than Hall. And while that might be true, Glenn Hall has a Conn Smythe from late in his career, and his longivity at the top are much better. The Black Hawks were generally not as stacked as the Red Wings either so it was deemed that at least some of Hall's alleged failiures in the playoffs was becouse he was hung out to dry at times.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 12-08-2013 at 06:56 PM.
Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2013, 06:54 PM
  #5
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,007
vCash: 500
All the discussions that took place in the ranking projects are linked in the sticky thread at the top of this board.

Sawchuk vs Hall was discussed in detail in this thread: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1269997

Personally, I would take Hall over Sawchuk


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 12-08-2013 at 07:24 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2013, 08:00 PM
  #6
JFA87-66-99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,312
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
All the discussions that took place in the ranking projects are linked in the sticky thread at the top of this board.

Sawchuk vs Hall was discussed in detail in this thread: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1269997

Personally, I would take Hall over Sawchuk
Thanks for the answers guys, but I should have stated that I've already read through the whole 32 pages of vote 1 for HOH top 40 goaltenders project, and I'm still unclear as to who I like better, though I'm still leaning towards Sawchuck.

- Sawchuck's peak from 1951-1955 is just insane. 3 cups in 5 years and 2 retro conn smythe's. His 1952 playoff run which is probably the best playoff run any goaltender ever had. 8/8 Wins, 4 shutouts, 5 goals against, etc. After his 5 year peak there isn't much else that stands out to his career untill he helps the 67 leafs when the cup

-I've read that Glenn Hall's 7 1st team all-stars all came during the period in which the 1st team as was automatically given the GAA leader, and Hall was the only player to buck the trend and he did it 7 times. Was this proven to be true because if it was then that has to say something very special about Glenn Hall.

- Also read that Hall faced the most shots, most scoring chances etc, because the hawks left him out to dry a lot. Was this proven to be factual?

JFA87-66-99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2013, 08:52 PM
  #7
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,486
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
Thanks for the answers guys, but I should have stated that I've already read through the whole 32 pages of vote 1 for HOH top 40 goaltenders project, and I'm still unclear as to who I like better, though I'm still leaning towards Sawchuck.

- Sawchuck's peak from 1951-1955 is just insane. 3 cups in 5 years and 2 retro conn smythe's. His 1952 playoff run which is probably the best playoff run any goaltender ever had. 8/8 Wins, 4 shutouts, 5 goals against, etc. After his 5 year peak there isn't much else that stands out to his career untill he helps the 67 leafs when the cup

-I've read that Glenn Hall's 7 1st team all-stars all came during the period in which the 1st team as was automatically given the GAA leader, and Hall was the only player to buck the trend and he did it 7 times. Was this proven to be true because if it was then that has to say something very special about Glenn Hall.

- Also read that Hall faced the most shots, most scoring chances etc, because the hawks left him out to dry a lot. Was this proven to be factual?
I think the best word or adjective to try & explain Terry Sawchuk is quixotic. He was extremely moody, temperamental. Dark. You ask just about any oldtimer who witnessed his play in the early 50's, the odd game thereafter & certainly in the semi's in 67 when he was with the Leafs against Chicago, and these are former players including members of the goaltending fraternity, Coaches, Managers & Executives, media, knowledgeable fans; Sawchuk was The Greatest Ever. And that includes comparisons to Dryden, Parent, Roy, Brodeur, Hasek & all of the rest of them to this very day. I rank him #1 All Time.

Glenn Hall on the other hand was also a brilliant goaltender, though as noted not the same "clutch" or money player as was Sawchuk or Hasek. That being said, though not being "left out to dry" by the Hawks Chicago during his salad days with the club in the dying days of the Golden Era was not a club noted for the most astute in terms of Bench Bosses. It was also a club built around the offensive talents of Bobby Hull. Stan Mikita was one of the greatest 2 way Centers, and they had some serious talent on the blue line with most notably Pierre Pilote. They just didnt have a lot of depth defensively, certainly nowhere near what the Leafs had at that time. Enough though that no, Hall wasnt "hung out to dry". He did complain about some of his players though, that his forwards didnt back check enough but thats more a function & responsibility of the Coaching, Managements job to do something about it.

Despite winning the Vezina in 67 with Chicago and being protected in the Expansion Draft, allowed to finish & play out his great career in Chicago as he should have been afforded, they leave the guy unprotected & he's grabbed by St.Louis. In his first year there, despite the in-bound teams being seriously hamstrung & handicapped in securing talent & facing the Canadiens in the Finals, Hall was quite spectacular despite the 4 game defeat, all of which were lost by just 1 goal, Glenn Hall very deservedly winning the Smythe. Next year of course Jacques Plante joined the Blues, he & Hall going on to win the Vezina. Throughout, several other backups & journeyman, Hall & Plante used sparingly, rested, used against the more formidable opponents, the playoffs.

Overall Career & tenure, in terms of consistency it goes to Glenn Hall for sure. But in terms of just sheer brilliance, though his peak was early followed by a late & very bright burst, in terms of raw talent Sawchuk eclipses Hall absolutely, and very few who have followed come close though Ive seen some incredible performances that are very close to being right on par.... Roger Crozier mid 60's with Detroit, Hall in 68, Dryden in 71, Tretiak in 72 & so on down through the years. And I will say this as by way of qualifying my opinion. Sawchuk I saw at a young age and as his performances were so brilliant & the first time Id ever seen anything like that, the impression would just naturally be a lot stronger. A bar had been set. It was difficult to thereafter be entirely objective in comparing Dryden in 71 or Parent in 74/75, a Billy Smith, Roy or Hasek thereafter, so sure, I'll admit to some subjective bias, absolutely.


Last edited by Killion: 12-08-2013 at 09:00 PM.
Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2013, 09:43 PM
  #8
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 40,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
Thanks for the answers guys, but I should have stated that I've already read through the whole 32 pages of vote 1 for HOH top 40 goaltenders project, and I'm still unclear as to who I like better, though I'm still leaning towards Sawchuck.

- Sawchuck's peak from 1951-1955 is just insane. 3 cups in 5 years and 2 retro conn smythe's. His 1952 playoff run which is probably the best playoff run any goaltender ever had. 8/8 Wins, 4 shutouts, 5 goals against, etc. After his 5 year peak there isn't much else that stands out to his career untill he helps the 67 leafs when the cup

-I've read that Glenn Hall's 7 1st team all-stars all came during the period in which the 1st team as was automatically given the GAA leader, and Hall was the only player to buck the trend and he did it 7 times. Was this proven to be true because if it was then that has to say something very special about Glenn Hall.

- Also read that Hall faced the most shots, most scoring chances etc, because the hawks left him out to dry a lot. Was this proven to be factual?
It's peak (Sawchuk) vs consistency and longevity as an elite player (Hall). IMO, Sawchuk's time on top is just so short. Also, Sawchuk's peak might have looked better than it actually was because he was the only goalie in the league who didn't have to face the Production Line backed by Red Kelly for 20% of his games.

Hall had the best GAA some of the times he was a 1st Team All Star, but several times he bucked the trend.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2013, 09:57 PM
  #9
LeBlondeDemon10
10 AM Its Automatic
 
LeBlondeDemon10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,906
vCash: 500
Considering Sawchuk played with a deformed or undersized arm due to a childhood injury, an alcohol problem, unresolved grief of the loss of his older brother and as stated by Killion, mental health issues, it is amazing what he accomplished. He overcame a mountain of issues to excel, at the very least, one thing in his life, goaltending. If he didn't have all of these constraints, one might speculate how good he could have been. On the other hand, it is quite possible that these issues were factors in motivating him to be the best he could be. We'll never know.

LeBlondeDemon10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2013, 11:02 PM
  #10
BadgerBruce
Registered User
 
BadgerBruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 111
vCash: 500
The finest books about Sawchuk is "Night Work: The Sawchuk Poems," written by Memorial University (NF) professor Randy Maggs (brother of journeyman pro Darryl Maggs), in 2008.

The work begins with an exact reproduction of the autopsy report completed after T.S.'s death, and reading this coldly clinical, "start at the top of the head and move to the tips of the toes" medical report on "the body Sawchuk" is horrifying. The man was the first goaltender to play 20 NHL seasons, and his body was an absolute and total mess.

The poems themselves are masterful, and Maggs' research took over a decade. He lays bare the tortured Sawchuk soul with such tenderness and compassion, and along the way reveals truths about the man (eg, an undiagnosed eating disorder) that further illuminate the human condition as lived by this polarizing (and quite likely bi-polar) all-time great. The photos alone are worth the price.

Here's a link to a quick review by Joe Pelletier

http://www.hockeybookreviews.com/200...poems.html?m=1

BadgerBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-13-2013, 09:21 PM
  #11
DJ Man
Registered User
 
DJ Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: East Central Florida
Country: United States
Posts: 317
vCash: 500
Of course, you got 70 games per season out of Hall, whereas you had to trust the substitutes for 5-10 games with the others.

DJ Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:49 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.