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Zetterberg talks about Russia

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08-19-2013, 04:11 PM
  #51
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Z is certainly much better at playing hockey than at making comments on politics.

1) sily anti Russian comment ... going along the conventional wisdom that Russia is a "non-freedom" country. Read well the law and understand what it means !

2) You go to a country ... and respect its ways of living. Basic savoir vivre when traveling accross the world. Are you going to teach arabs to remove the jelaba and to have only 1 wife ? the chinese not to eat dogs ? and the americans not to have guns at home ?

You may not agree with some people's thinking ... but you don't promote anti-government movements. It is very immature. Specially that as sportsman you have leverage. This country is in transition and doesn't need that ... stability is already borderline. Empty head move from Z.

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08-19-2013, 04:17 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyldenlove View Post
Federal regulations have long been in place that override state laws on sex so homosexual sex is legal in all 46 states and 4 commonwealths and DC, the fact that some states have yet to revoke outdated laws that are no longer enforceable is a testament to how broken the American legislative system is and how a complete overhaul of legislation at all levels is badly needed.

The crux of the matter is not actually the anti-LGBT law in Russia, it is the continued persecution of minorities and the increase in political and state sponsored censorship and violence going on Russia. The reason nobody boycotted Beijing is that Beijing was seen as part of a step forward for China - whereas these new laws in Russia represent a big step backwards.

International pressure on Russia is the only way to influence policies. Russia doesn't exist in a vacuum and as long as they are part of the international society there is a requirement for them to respect human rights of both their own citizens and visitors alike.

It is true that some American allies have laws against homosexuality among many other things - it is sad and regrettable that these states represent a tactical position strong enough that political demands for alliance supersedes human rights ideals.
These paragraphs get to the crux of the matter. Like odin1981 said, this isn't a big issue. Once the olympics end, you think the international community will care? Of course not.
This entire situation has more to do with geopolitics than concern for human rights.

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08-19-2013, 04:28 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
I guess I don't understand how you determine what's a big deal or not?
oppression/hunger/poverty/violenceare a bigger deal than anything else i think, and it's not an issue contained behind a specific border or in a vacuum. It's a global issue, and i applaud any move made to use the global stage of the olympics to address global issues of inequality.

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08-19-2013, 04:39 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by torero View Post
1) sily anti Russian comment ... going along the conventional wisdom that Russia is a "non-freedom" country. Read well the law and understand what it means !
If this is the way Russia is going to act, then some anti-Russian comments are justified. What do you have to say about the 100 year ban on gay pride parades? Are all of these things just a coincidence?

This is a common objection to any sort of claim that somebody is being oppressed. They'll say "well, this particular thing is not so bad. I don't know what you're making a fuss about." The thing to consider is that oppression is not a single barrier. Analogically, if there's one barrier, you can move around it. Oppression is a series of barriers, blocking you in from all sides. When people talk about what Russia is doing, they're not voicing opposition to this particular law as written. They're pointing out the pattern of oppression against homosexuals, created by a number of different actions.

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2) You go to a country ... and respect its ways of living. Basic savoir vivre when traveling accross the world. Are you going to teach arabs to remove the jelaba and to have only 1 wife ? the chinese not to eat dogs ? and the americans not to have guns at home ?
This goes back to the female genital mutilation case. Should we respect North Africa/some parts of the Middle East's way of living when it comes to carving up their daughters? I don't think so, and many others agree with me. There are things that are wrong no matter whose borders they occur inside.

Besides that, oppressing an entire class of people is simply not like polygamy, weird culinary choices, or the right to bear arms. Worlds apart, I'd say.

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You may not agree with some people's thinking ... but you don't promote anti-government movements. It is very immature. Specially that as sportsman you have leverage. This country is in transition and doesn't need that ... stability is already borderline. Empty head move from Z.
Anti-government movements are the best way to keep arrogant, oppressive governments in check. You should be worried if people decide to "grow up" and stop the opposition, because that's when you'll be well and truly ****ed.

and if Russia is in transition, what does this say? What is it transitioning to? We should fear the answer to that question.

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08-19-2013, 04:53 PM
  #55
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From my perspective the issue at hand has very little to do with gay rights, and a lot to do with the idea of folks getting arrested for expressing an opinion.

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08-19-2013, 04:59 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
People view Z's words as reeking of hypocrisy and self righteous indignation even though his words are honorable.

What if Russia/China put forth a huge media campaign chastising the Canadian treatment of indigenous people, or Camp Gitmo by the US in the lead up to Vancouver and Salt Lake City, complete with talks of boycotts and Eastern athletes 'voicing their opinion'?
.
That all sounds good to me!

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08-19-2013, 05:54 PM
  #57
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Day 2.... I'm still applauding Hank. The sooner this world can overcome the types of things he spoke out against and the people who disagree with Hank saying what he did, the better. Amazing how many people defend the Russian law under the misguided belief that it's "no big deal." I can't imagine being that ignorant of history and what these types of laws actually mean and entail, and what else they cause (assaults on homosexuals have recently skyrocketed in Russia btw). I'm thankful there are people with platforms and the willingness to speak up, like Hank.

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08-19-2013, 07:23 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Day 2.... I'm still applauding Hank. The sooner this world can overcome the types of things he spoke out against and the people who disagree with Hank saying what he did, the better. Amazing how many people defend the Russian law under the misguided belief that it's "no big deal." I can't imagine being that ignorant of history and what these types of laws actually mean and entail, and what else they cause (assaults on homosexuals have recently skyrocketed in Russia btw). I'm thankful there are people with platforms and the willingness to speak up, like Hank.
You're missing the point. Nothing is going to change because the West doesn't care about Russian human rights. They care about power (all countries do).
Zetterberg and other athlete's concerns are being used as a political tool more so than a concern over human rights.
You think anybody will care about these laws once olympics end?


What troubles people is the West's picking and choosing of certain abuses to be 'outraged' over - and how they conveniently correspond to a political agenda.
I mean Russia's gay laws pail in comparison to the murder, **** and torture policies of recent olympic hosts (USA, China). Yet, relatively speaking, not a peep was made over those.

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08-19-2013, 07:55 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I don't know, Benchy. People die in a lot of these other countries, are executed, fighting for the most basic of human rights. I think there's a fair bit of hypocrisy over when and where to fight for the rights of others in foreign lands. If people really wanted to put their money where their mouths are, Olympics wouldn't even be handed out to some countries that have hosted in recent years.
The Olympics this year will continue business as usual and in the end this will read exactly the same as the link I posted about the Beijing Olympics. That's what I'm saying.

To say this is "special" or an "agenda" isn't accurate, as I heard MORE uproar about China. Or maybe I just read the news more in 2008.

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08-19-2013, 09:23 PM
  #60
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Not true either, the law technically bans the promotion of homosexuality through speech or publication aimed at minors.
Anyone that has to use the qualifier "technically" knows what it "actually" is for. Back in the day southern states tried to enact voting requirement laws, whereby U.S. citizens had to have a certain level of education before they were allowed to vote for local, state and national representatives. The laws "technically" were to make sure that the electorate had a certain level of education so they could make informed decisions for the better of society. In actuality, the laws were aimed at preventing the masses of rural, uneducated (by the law's standards) African-Americans from voting.

Z doesn't have to talk about this, he was asked about it and he spoke about what he felt was right. Good for him.

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08-19-2013, 09:25 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
You're missing the point. Nothing is going to change because the West doesn't care about Russian human rights. They care about power (all countries do).
Zetterberg and other athlete's concerns are being used as a political tool more so than a concern over human rights.
You think anybody will care about these laws once olympics end?


What troubles people is the West's picking and choosing of certain abuses to be 'outraged' over - and how they conveniently correspond to a political agenda.
I mean Russia's gay laws pail in comparison to the murder, **** and torture policies of recent olympic hosts (USA, China). Yet, relatively speaking, not a peep was made over those.
Yes. And Zetterberg would be fine condemning it then, too.


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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
The Olympics this year will continue business as usual and in the end this will read exactly the same as the link I posted about the Beijing Olympics. That's what I'm saying.

To say this is "special" or an "agenda" isn't accurate, as I heard MORE uproar about China. Or maybe I just read the news more in 2008.
Most likely everything will go on as planned, there will be a demonstration here or there that will quickly disappear, and it won't be a big deal in the greater Olympic picture. still, like Jaster, I like Zetterberg speaking out about it.

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08-19-2013, 09:27 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by BeersHockey View Post
Anyone that has to use the qualifier "technically" knows what it "actually" is for. Back in the day southern states tried to enact voting requirement laws, whereby U.S. citizens had to have a certain level of education before they were allowed to vote for local, state and national representatives. The laws "technically" were to make sure that the electorate had a certain level of education so they could make informed decisions for the better of society. In actuality, the laws were aimed at preventing the masses of rural, uneducated (by the law's standards) African-Americans from voting.

Z doesn't have to talk about this, he was asked about it and he spoke about what he felt was right. Good for him.
I think it reflects well on his leadership qualities. It would have been really easy to duck that question, and I think it makes Z look better that he offered up something of a solid answer.

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08-20-2013, 01:10 AM
  #63
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I think you're right about Avery. At the time, though, I wondered if he was doing it solely to be a troublemaker, or if he really believed what he was saying.
Remember, he worked as an intern for Vogue. Many of his friends in the fashion world have a stake in the laws. Avery has appeared on Bravo and Fashion Police, I know.

This of course opens him up to "Hur hur he's gay" comments, but whatever. That's one area I respect the hell out of him, even if he's a bit of a loose cannon.

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08-20-2013, 01:40 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by torero View Post
2) You go to a country ... and respect its ways of living. Basic savoir vivre when traveling accross the world. Are you going to teach arabs to remove the jelaba and to have only 1 wife ? the chinese not to eat dogs ? and the americans not to have guns at home ?
The Afrikaaner not to segregate and disempower the black majority? The Sudanese not to commit genocide? The Taliban not to shoot girls attempting to go to school? The Kenyan not to practice female circumcision?

where's the line, Torero?

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08-20-2013, 01:52 AM
  #65
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Those who read my comments know, I'm not overly patriotic. But here,Western media is specifically spreading lies, those who live in Russia know that pretty much nothing has changed. Propaganda is not a matter of human rights(which is jut a schill this time) it's not a grassroots movement. It's a political struggle, political agenda, and all you guys, concerned about human right are just being used.

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08-20-2013, 04:21 AM
  #66
torero
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
The Afrikaaner not to segregate and disempower the black majority? The Sudanese not to commit genocide? The Taliban not to shoot girls attempting to go to school? The Kenyan not to practice female circumcision?

where's the line, Torero?
You are right, their is a line.

In my view we are far from this line.

it is a law against propaganda !!
"propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations" defined as relations not conducive to procreation.

are we talking about killing people ? shooting girls going to school ?
Come on !

By the way, do you have children ? have you already seen them watching a gay couple ? Should it be a model ? Should your line of family stop when you have 1 child and he is gay ? because ... "it's cool" to be gay ?

Russia has problems, they have no enough children ! should they accept to steer the country toward auto extermination ?

Z should play hockey !! he does it very well.
Z has to learn to think before speaking ... or ... maybe he is simply young !

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08-20-2013, 09:00 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torero View Post
You are right, their is a line.

In my view we are far from this line.

it is a law against propaganda !!
"propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations" defined as relations not conducive to procreation.

are we talking about killing people ? shooting girls going to school ?
Come on !

By the way, do you have children ? have you already seen them watching a gay couple ? Should it be a model ? Should your line of family stop when you have 1 child and he is gay ? because ... "it's cool" to be gay ?

Russia has problems, they have no enough children ! should they accept to steer the country toward auto extermination ?

Z should play hockey !! he does it very well.
Z has to learn to think before speaking ... or ... maybe he is simply young !
That's the thing, Z doesn't think it's 'cool' to be gay or 'cool' to be straight, it's just normal.

We're still in an age where a commercial staring an interracial couple is 'wrong' to some people.

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08-20-2013, 09:04 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by torero View Post
You are right, their is a line.

In my view we are far from this line.

it is a law against propaganda !!
"propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations" defined as relations not conducive to procreation.

are we talking about killing people ? shooting girls going to school ?
Come on !

By the way, do you have children ? have you already seen them watching a gay couple ? Should it be a model ? Should your line of family stop when you have 1 child and he is gay ? because ... "it's cool" to be gay ?

Russia has problems, they have no enough children ! should they accept to steer the country toward auto extermination ?

Z should play hockey !! he does it very well.
Z has to learn to think before speaking ... or ... maybe he is simply young !
....or maybe, unlike you, he doesnt see anything inherently wrong with homosexuality.

Maybe, just maybe, he doesnt even give a second thought to a gay couple on television, in the street or *gasp* in his family.

Maybe, just maybe, the developed world isnt a homophobic fearful mass of cattle scared at even the idea that someone else may cast a slightly different shadow than them.

Seriously, those people who have such a problem with homosexuals need to get out more. And for the love of all things holy, stop using your children as an excuse, a scapegoat to promote your idealized version of what humanity is and is not. Newsflash: Homosexuals have been around since the dawn of mammals.

Homosexuality is very common in all of the great ape species (specifically bisexuality, but really now...). In ancient Greece, they didnt have the same concept of our modern thinking on the subject. In their world, if you liked that person, you had sex with that person.

I know that Russia has a lot in common with the US in that it is a developed country that still has a very religious population, when compared to other developed countries (namely Europe and East Asia). I know that colors our politics to a great degree, to the annoyance of those who do not share the same specific majority ideology, but at some point the hypocrisy needs to end as it pertains to homosexuality.

Unless of course people like persecuting fellow citizens for hurting absolutely no one and living a pretty low-key lifestyle. Since the gay population is such a small percentage of the population, did you know that gay couples are something like 4x more likely to be rich (by federal standards)? That they are also a lot more likely to have both graduated with advanced degrees? That their life expectancy is no longer or shorter than a hetero couple? That they are less likely to divorce?

Again all of that is because homosexuals represent such a small percentage of the population, so extreme's are likely when compared to the statistical averages, but the point stands.

The only difference between a gay person and a straight person begins and ends in the bedroom. Personally, I am of the mind all governments should mind their business as far as two consenting adults are concerned, period.

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08-20-2013, 10:20 AM
  #70
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A law made by Russian nationalists designed to be a middle finger to Western values has citizens of the West upset.

You don't say.

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08-20-2013, 10:25 AM
  #71
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I don't remember Zetterberg speaking out about political opponents getting persecuted in Russia or the bloody Russian war in Chechnya. Nor do I remember him speaking out about major political issues in the country of his birth or the country he has spent most of the last 10 years in. But suddenly this is a huge issue that just requires a comment? This is not even in the top 50 of things that have gone wrong in Russia the last 20 years.

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08-20-2013, 10:30 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by icKx View Post
A law made by Russian nationalists designed to be a middle finger to Western values has citizens of the West upset.

You don't say.
A party that made this law is not a nationalist one.

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08-20-2013, 10:30 AM
  #73
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You're missing the point. Nothing is going to change because the West doesn't care about Russian human rights. They care about power (all countries do).
That's not me missing the point, that's you bringing up a completely different point


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Zetterberg and other athlete's concerns are being used as a political tool more so than a concern over human rights.
You think anybody will care about these laws once olympics end?
Yes, because people were caring about them before the Olympics talk. Especially Russians. Ultimately, it will be up to the Russian people to exact change in their own country, but outside pressure helps. I had read several things about the repercussions of this law before I ever heard anything from athletes. The amplification of this whole issue because of the Olympics is just that.... amplification. The core issue remains. And, really, this isn't even about Russia, at least not completely. It's an issue that is bigger than Russia. Russia just happened to be the country that most recently put itself at center stage.


Quote:
What troubles people is the West's picking and choosing of certain abuses to be 'outraged' over - and how they conveniently correspond to a political agenda.
I mean Russia's gay laws pail in comparison to the murder, **** and torture policies of recent olympic hosts (USA, China). Yet, relatively speaking, not a peep was made over those.
I heard far more than a peep about China. I agree with Bench, I actually heard more about China back then. But this is all beside the point. This thread was started about Zetterberg and his comments about a discriminatory and oppressive law. Just because there are worse things out there than this topic doesn't mean anything as far as this topic is concerned. I do agree with you, that there are far worse things happening in the world, and that it is a shame that there isn't more attention on those things, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about Russia's anti-LGBT stance, at least in terms of comments made by Henrik Zetterberg, the captain of the Detroit Red Wings, who play the sport of hockey and have people on message boards talking about them and staying on topic

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08-20-2013, 10:35 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
The Afrikaaner not to segregate and disempower the black majority? The Sudanese not to commit genocide? The Taliban not to shoot girls attempting to go to school? The Kenyan not to practice female circumcision?

where's the line, Torero?
Funny you mention South Africa. Because now, since Mandela and ANC took power it became a paradise! Population is in poverty, 70 000 whites been killed. But who cares about results, when you have a nice warm feeling about what you do?

And yeah, of course it was a grassroots movement LOL.

Btw, why you didn't mention Afrikaaners being killed in SA? Or it doen't fit inside the ideology and so, there no line to be crossed?

Back to the topic, homosexuals are not killed or imprisoned in Russia for being homosexuals. All you need to know really.

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08-20-2013, 10:38 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by BeersHockey View Post
Anyone that has to use the qualifier "technically" knows what it "actually" is for. Back in the day southern states tried to enact voting requirement laws, whereby U.S. citizens had to have a certain level of education before they were allowed to vote for local, state and national representatives. The laws "technically" were to make sure that the electorate had a certain level of education so they could make informed decisions for the better of society. In actuality, the laws were aimed at preventing the masses of rural, uneducated (by the law's standards) African-Americans from voting.
Precisely. I'm a little (stress on the word "little" here) surprised at the level of historical ignorance surrounding this topic amongst those who talk about it. People want to cherry-pick words and phrases out of this law to try to demonstrate how it's "no big deal," or "only" does this, or "only" does that. The reality is different, and there are hundreds of examples in history of why this law effectively does more damage that it first appears on the surface.

Good for Zetterberg to help draw more attention to it. The more attention that is drawn, the faster actions will take place, and the the faster change can be exacted.

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