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Old
08-19-2013, 12:14 PM
  #26
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Offensively Keon vs H. Richard was a wash.
You can't possibly believe this.

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08-19-2013, 12:22 PM
  #27
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1962

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You can't possibly believe this.
After suffering a broken arm in a 1962 collision with Marcel Pronovost, Henri Richard's shot, after the arm healed, was never the same.

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08-19-2013, 12:41 PM
  #28
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...Killion is very accurate when calling this complete team checking package more sophisticated.... Rejean Houle just had to get to the correct points on the ice.
Yes essentially its all geometry, the smartest players & certainly goaltenders thinking & breaking down the game through dimensional analysis both on the chalkboard & in real-time in-game. The ice surface broken down into equilateral triangles with common endpoints measured in radians artificially controlled with the impositions of the rink size, goal line, face-off circles, blue & previously red lines. With removal of the centre ice red line team coverage much more sophisticated with greater speed & the cycle, much more abstract with the player required to now think also in terms of hyperbolic & irrational angles whereas formerly most were inscribed angles. However, guys like Red Kelley, Beliveau, H.Richard, Keon, Orr, Houle, Clarke, Lafluer, Gainey, Gretzky, Lemieux, Gilmour, Lidstrom, Datsyuk et al naturally and innately thought/think geometrically fused with the physical properties of angular velocity, puck & skating speed be it offensively or defensively. In their minds little distinction between the two.... then theres Goaltending.

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08-19-2013, 03:25 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by King Forsberg View Post
Surprised its taken this long to mention the duo of Don Luce and Craig Ramsay. I'd comment more on them but I'm on my phone.
I was just about to post them. Many good years together with Buffalo and they usually were good for 20 goals apiece as well.

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08-19-2013, 06:01 PM
  #30
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Dirk Graham was pretty good, not the best, but deserves a mention.

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08-19-2013, 08:54 PM
  #31
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I appreciate many of the posts, but I was really hoping to get more specific responses. What about said player made him the defensive player that he was? Did he overcome any weaknesses to still be effective defensively? Any famous matchups? And on and on. The more I can read about them the better.

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08-20-2013, 03:26 PM
  #32
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Bob Gainey

The following is a brief look at Bob Gainey's career. The focus will start at the 1973 NHL Amateur Draft and will look at a few of the key elements that contributed to making Bob Gainey a HHOFer.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...gainebo01.html

The Montreal Canadiens chose Bob Gainey with the 8th overall pick in the 1973 NHL Amateur Draft.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/draf...3_amateur.html

The pick was very surprising but looking forward or in hindsight, who else should they have chosen. The top talents were picked. Bob Gainey-LW, had size, speed,physicality, discipline(career regular season high 57 PIMs), excellent to elite defensively, coming thru the Peterborough youth and junior systems. From the remaining talents, none possessed these attribute. Vast majority were smaller and slower but had offensive skills. Two possibilities left were Rick Middleton - RW, smaller, Ian Turnbull - D with limited defensive skills. Two positions where the Canadiens had depth.

Picking Bob Gainey made sense. The Canadiens lacked depth at LW, uncertainty with Frank Mahovlich and Marc Tardif, talk of moving Jacques Lemaire to LW, plus the offensive defensemen in the east - Bobby Orr and Brad Park played RD so a big, fast, physical LW playing an aggressive forecheck, strong in the defensive zone was an intriguing option. Paid off since Bob Gainey led all 1973 draft picks with 1160 regular season games played.

After a slow start in the NHL during the 1973-74 season, Bob Gainey blossomed into a defensive force starting with the 1974-75 NHL season until his retirement after the 1989 playoffs. The Canadiens always supported him with elite defensive centers - first two seasons mainly an elderly Henri Richard followed by Doug Jarvis and Guy Carbonneau. Gainey's stamina and skating allowed him to be "extra shifted" as a situational left winger on other lines to counter home ice advantage or as a physical presence as game situations demanded.

Career his ESGA = 0.5586. He was a force on the PK, career RS 20G/13A, PO - 3 SH goals. During 14 seasons of his 16 year career, the Canadiens were 10 to 27 PPA goals better than the league average on the PK. Gainey's role as a LWer on the PKwas critical since the East teams tended to be right point dominant on their PPS - Orr, Park, Bourque, Salming amongst others. At ES the team/goalies won 5 SCs and 6 Vezinas including one with a three goalie rotation - Herron, Sevigny, Larocque.

Bob Gainey strength as a defensive forward are best illustrated by his playoff performance against the Boston Bruins and their key forward Rick Middleton(also a 1973 draft pick) who played RW and was the key match-up for Bob Gainey.

Rick Middleton:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...middlri01.html

Career, RS = 0.98 PPG in 1005 games, PO = 0.88 PPG in 114 games.

In eight playoffs series against the Bruins when the Gainey / Middleton match-up was in play, the Canadiens went 26W - 11L in 37 games, winning 7 of the 8 series.

Bob Gainey dominated Rick Middleton. In the 37 games, Rick Middleton registered 8G / 8A. Only 11 of the 16 points were scored at ES. So in the 37 playoff games, Rick Middleton was reduced to a 0.432 PPG player. vs his RS 0.98 level or his career overall PO 0.88 level. Effectively against the rest of the league in 77 PO games, Middleton registered 84 points in 77 games or a 1.09 PPG level. Furthermore in the same games Bob Gainey scored 6G and 9A for 15 points.

As a comparable against another LW, Craig Ramsay and the Buffalo Sabres in two series Rick Middleton scored 7G and 16A over 11 games, Bruins winning both series. The difference speaks for itself.

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Old
08-20-2013, 04:49 PM
  #33
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Iron Man Doug Jarvis

... who out of Junior in 75 was teamed with Bob Gainey, playing variously with the likes of Rejean Houle, that tandem though, Jarvis & Gainey the top defensive pairing in the league until 1982 when Jarvis was traded to Washington where he won the Selke in 83, the Caps immediately respectable with the pickups from Montreal which included Rod Langway & Brian Engblom.

Gainey & Jarvis cast long shadows over the most potent offensive threats the league could throw at them, shutdown specialists & good friends on & off the ice. Doug had played his Jr. in Peterborough, 3yrs under the brilliant Roger Nielson, the Petes very much philosophically & technically carrying on with the same precepts as laid down by Pollock & Bowman a decade earlier, the "Montreal System" if you will. Two way play absolutely demanded of one & all. Jarvis was a real PP & PK Specialist early on, forcing turnovers, excellent on the draw, scoring 4G's in 5G's in the 74 WJC's, All Star Selection in the OHA.

In one of the most lopsided rip-off trades in Toronto Maple Leaf History, they trade Doug there for the legendary Greg Hubick right out of the Draft . Hubick had spent 3yrs with Montreals farm club already, the Nova Scotia Voyageurs, and Id hazard to guess that by then Montreal was well aware of his limitations. He played one full completely forgettable season in Toronto, traded to Chicago who promptly dispatched him to their farm where he spent the remainder of his career but for 5 games over the next 5yrs or so. Jarvis of course developing into one of the all time greatest ever defensive centres, totally reliable, followed by Head Coaching positions, now an Assistant in Boston & responsible for much of that teams success & won a Cup with Dallas as an Assistant Coach. Both a student & professor of the game, extremely high hockey IQ, and for all of 15 minutes a Toronto Maple Leaf.


Last edited by Killion: 08-20-2013 at 04:59 PM.
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Old
08-20-2013, 05:10 PM
  #34
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1975-76

^^^1975-76 the line was Bob Gainey, Doug Jarvis and Jim Roberts all former Peterborough Petes.

First Peterborough coach in the Old OHA was Ted Kennedy who laid down a solid defensive foundation later built upon by Scotty Bowman the Roger Neilson and others.

Peterborough Petes graduated junior with a nice blend featuring the strengths of the Leafs and Canadiens defensive philosophies, especially the forwards.

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08-20-2013, 05:47 PM
  #35
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Where does Brind'Amour stand?

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08-20-2013, 06:17 PM
  #36
Dennis Bonvie
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Eddie Westfall was an excellent defensive forward who had the misfortune of playing his first 6 seasons with horrible Bruins teams. Perhaps that's how he got so good defensively, that's all he did most night.

He gained some prominence as a Bobby Hull shadow in the mid-60s but was really noticed once he started pairing with Derek Sanderson on the PK during the Orr-Espo years. Ended his career with the Islanders and was probably the teams best 2-way forward for their first 3 of seasons.

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08-20-2013, 06:33 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Eddie Westfall... He gained some prominence as a Bobby Hull shadow in the mid-60s but was really noticed once he started pairing with Derek Sanderson on the PK during the Orr-Espo years...
Indeed. That line of Westfall, Sanderson & Marcotte was for a few seasons quite brilliant. Sanderson himself despite being a high scoring Centre in Junior knew the defensive game, and damn good at it with edge, could be very nasty. One of my all time favourites, highly skilled, smart player. One of the best defensive centres, most effective Ive seen, and that includes contemporaries like Keon & Henri Richard. Shame he burned it at both ends & in the middle but hey, guys gotta do what he's gotta do sometimes.

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08-20-2013, 06:39 PM
  #38
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Doug Gilmour

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Where does Brind'Amour stand?
Rod Brind'Amour ESGA = 0.77/G. Overall Doug Gilmour level.

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08-21-2013, 09:09 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Rod Brind'Amour ESGA = 0.77/G. Overall Doug Gilmour level.
ESGA rates are highly team and era-dependent, and easily skewed by ice time.

Jari Kurri was the Selke runner up in 1983, but his rate was over 1 ESGA/game. Going by ESGA/game, Mark Messier was better defensively in 2001 than he was in 1990

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08-21-2013, 09:51 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
ESGA rates are highly team and era-dependent, and easily skewed by ice time.

Jari Kurri was the Selke runner up in 1983, but his rate was over 1 ESGA/game. Going by ESGA/game, Mark Messier was better defensively in 2001 than he was in 1990
Yeah, it is a terrible measure of individual play.

It always gets trotted out for Clarke but by that measure Reggie Leach was also one of the greatest defensive forwards ever.

More likely, it was a team approach and great goaltending as well as Clarke being great defensively.

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08-21-2013, 10:26 AM
  #41
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Centers

^^^ Centers. When did Kurri or Leach ever play center?

Illustrate when a team or non-centers can manage the spacing the way a center can or dictate the defensive pace of a game the way a center can? Clarke other than his knee injury period played with distinct teams - different linemates, goalies, defensemen. Clarke's best year 1976, Bernie Parent hardly played. Yet Clarke had his best defensive season.

Compare the other Flyer centers to Clarke in 1976. ESGA/G. Clarke 22/76, Kindrachuk 37/76,Bridgman 32/80, MacLeish 37/51,Crisp 15/38. Same supporting team - defensemen and goalies. Doubt that you can submit anything plausible in terms of evidence that Clarke played the fewest minutes of the five centers, overall data suggests he played the most minutes of any center.

As for Messier 2001 vs 1990. You are assuming Messier's TOI is constant between the two seasons. Given the two previous seasons show Messier with upwards of 3 more minutes TOI than in 2001 this is doubtful.

People are welcome to adjust to TOI but the fact remains that the team element requires a 60 minute game or adjusted to plus OT and you can notice the difference in the performance relative to the remaining centers. See the 1976 Clarke example.

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08-21-2013, 10:33 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
After suffering a broken arm in a 1962 collision with Marcel Pronovost, Henri Richard's shot, after the arm healed, was never the same.
It seems Pronovost should be in the running for all-time NHL assassin? (Richard's arm/Orr's knee)

(Although probably unintentional?)

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08-21-2013, 10:37 AM
  #43
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Sammy Påhlsson's whole game was about making things not happening on the ice.

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08-21-2013, 10:38 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Eddie Westfall was an excellent defensive forward who had the misfortune of playing his first 6 seasons with horrible Bruins teams. Perhaps that's how he got so good defensively, that's all he did most night.

He gained some prominence as a Bobby Hull shadow in the mid-60s but was really noticed once he started pairing with Derek Sanderson on the PK during the Orr-Espo years. Ended his career with the Islanders and was probably the teams best 2-way forward for their first 3 of seasons.
He was actually a converted defenseman. First 3 years with Boston he played D.

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08-21-2013, 10:47 AM
  #45
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Marcel Pronovost

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Originally Posted by BobbyAwe View Post
It seems Pronovost should be in the running for all-time NHL assassin? (Richard's arm/Orr's knee)

(Although probably unintentional?)
Marcel Pronovost. Very low PIM totals. Clean, honest defenseman:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...pronoma01.html

Awkward collison in the Richard injury.

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08-21-2013, 01:40 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
^^^ Centers. When did Kurri or Leach ever play center?

Illustrate when a team or non-centers can manage the spacing the way a center can or dictate the defensive pace of a game the way a center can? Clarke other than his knee injury period played with distinct teams - different linemates, goalies, defensemen. Clarke's best year 1976, Bernie Parent hardly played. Yet Clarke had his best defensive season.

Compare the other Flyer centers to Clarke in 1976. ESGA/G. Clarke 22/76, Kindrachuk 37/76,Bridgman 32/80, MacLeish 37/51,Crisp 15/38. Same supporting team - defensemen and goalies. Doubt that you can submit anything plausible in terms of evidence that Clarke played the fewest minutes of the five centers, overall data suggests he played the most minutes of any center.

As for Messier 2001 vs 1990. You are assuming Messier's TOI is constant between the two seasons. Given the two previous seasons show Messier with upwards of 3 more minutes TOI than in 2001 this is doubtful.

People are welcome to adjust to TOI but the fact remains that the team element requires a 60 minute game or adjusted to plus OT and you can notice the difference in the performance relative to the remaining centers. See the 1976 Clarke example.
Kurri frequently played center after the Gretzky trade, but not by 1983.

If Messier's a poor example due to ice-time, then how about Sergei Fedorov? In 1994 Feds may have won the Hart and Selke despite having one of the worst defensive performances of his career (71 ESGA / 82 games, .866). In 1994, this is putting him well below Jeremy Roenick (62 ESGA / 84 games, .738), Dale Hawerchuk (54 in 81, .667) and Mark Messier (46 in 76, .605). Feds would have to have played for 30 minutes a game for a TOI difference to account for the ESGA gap between him and Messier.

The logical conclusion is that even without comparing era or ice-time differences, the team you play on makes a huge difference.

This stat is essentially a less accurate version of GAA (by game, not minute), and cross-era comparisons will be the equivalent of saying Brian Elliot's 2013 playoffs were better (1.91 GAA) than Patrick Roy's 1993 playoffs (2.14).

I don't see any value in a ESGA/GP number for comparison purposes.


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08-21-2013, 04:29 PM
  #47
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Sammy Pahlsson

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Originally Posted by LiveeviL View Post
Sammy Påhlsson's whole game was about making things not happening on the ice.
On the ice for 647 GA but 274 were allowed on the PK or over 42%.
Given his TOI, career average 16:15 minutes, his ES TOI would be in the 9:30 minutes range.

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08-21-2013, 05:23 PM
  #48
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Team

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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
Kurri frequently played center after the Gretzky trade, but not by 1983.

If Messier's a poor example due to ice-time, then how about Sergei Fedorov? In 1994 Feds may have won the Hart and Selke despite having one of the worst defensive performances of his career (71 ESGA / 82 games, .866). In 1994, this is putting him well below Jeremy Roenick (62 ESGA / 84 games, .738), Dale Hawerchuk (54 in 81, .667) and Mark Messier (46 in 76, .605). Feds would have to have played for 30 minutes a game for a TOI difference to account for the ESGA gap between him and Messier.

The logical conclusion is that even without comparing era or ice-time differences, the team you play on makes a huge difference.

This stat is essentially a less accurate version of GAA (by game, not minute), and cross-era comparisons will be the equivalent of saying Brian Elliot's 2013 playoffs were better (1.91 GAA) than Patrick Roy's 1993 playoffs (2.14).

I don't see any value in a ESGA/GP number for comparison purposes.
Main focus of the ESGA is within a specific team. Were Roenick, Hawerchuk, Messier Red Wings during the 1993-94 season? Was Scotty Bowman their coach? The 1976 Flyers illustration made this point. Look within the team.

On the 1994 Red Wings Yzerman was 62/58, Keith Primeau was 49/78 = 0.6282 which goes a long way to explaining why Scotty Bowman was not happy with the defensive play of Fedorov and Yzerman. That Fedorov won the Selke during his worst defensive season does not change the analysis, just clearly confirms the flaws in the Selke voting.1995 the respective numbers were - Yzerman 25/47, Fedorov 30/42, Primeau 27/45.

Brent Sutter's 30/73 with Chicago, Derek Plante with Buffalo, Sergei Nemchinov with the Rangers.

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08-21-2013, 05:42 PM
  #49
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Wasn't Fedorov being shifted at D during this time, making goals per 20/60 more telling than per-game stats? Did Primeau get tough defensive minutes, or was he sheltered by the mere presence of F/Y during this stretch? Are those poor GA stats the reason why Osgood was 11 and 15% worse than Belfour/Richter, or the other way around?

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08-21-2013, 06:55 PM
  #50
Dennis Bonvie
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He was actually a converted defenseman. First 3 years with Boston he played D.
Correct you are.

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