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06-30-2005, 08:52 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
The problem is that he won't get a lot of minutes on a veteran ladden Philadelphia team that he would get if he were a Capital or Blue Jackets or Penguins prospect would get.
Those years are done, we will not see a deep veteran team like we are used to any more. Realisitically, contenders are going to only be able to keep one or two star players, and two veteran lines. The bottom two forward lines are going to be full of prospects and marginal grinders from here on out. It will be teams that can spend to the cap and that have lots of good cheap young players that will succeed. People may not like players like Sharp and Seidenberg, or that we are relying on rookies like Carter and Richards, but thats what you need to flesh out a solid team without going over a cap. We are lucky we have two rookies that have such potential and readiness. Lets develop them into star players and use our resources to fill other holes in the roster.

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06-30-2005, 09:01 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by GagneOwnsYou
Jester, I'm not sure what your problem with Richards is. He is just as ready for the NHL as Carter and will have just as big of an impact.
don't have a problem with Richards at all... in fact, i think he's going to be awesome. however, i believe the following:

1) his future in the NHL is NOT as a first-line center. he looks to have an excellent two-way game, good on face-offs, and a future as one of the better PK'ers in the NHL. Carter's potential as a future NHL'er is definitely as a top-two scoring line centerman... basically the two are different players, doesn't mean i don't value Richards.

2) this team has two WAY ABOVE AVERAGE two-way centermen in Handzus and Primeau. Richards will not be taking minutes away from EITHER of them as a rookie on this team. that doesn't mean he isn't going to be an excellent player, it just means he's a rookie and they are not.

3) that means you are making a role decision between Carter and Richards as to what they are going to be doing with this team next season. you have two options, scoring line center or 4th line center. i'm simply choosing Carter for the scoring role on this team as a rookie over Richards...

4) i'm perfectly fine with the idea of him playing 4th line center on this team... the reason i question that is based on this question: "what is better for him? playing with the phantoms as a 1st line center, or playing with the flyers as a fourth line center?"

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06-30-2005, 09:36 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Jester
don't have a problem with Richards at all... in fact, i think he's going to be awesome. however, i believe the following:

1) his future in the NHL is NOT as a first-line center. he looks to have an excellent two-way game, good on face-offs, and a future as one of the better PK'ers in the NHL. Carter's potential as a future NHL'er is definitely as a top-two scoring line centerman... basically the two are different players, doesn't mean i don't value Richards.

2) this team has two WAY ABOVE AVERAGE two-way centermen in Handzus and Primeau. Richards will not be taking minutes away from EITHER of them as a rookie on this team. that doesn't mean he isn't going to be an excellent player, it just means he's a rookie and they are not.

3) that means you are making a role decision between Carter and Richards as to what they are going to be doing with this team next season. you have two options, scoring line center or 4th line center. i'm simply choosing Carter for the scoring role on this team as a rookie over Richards...

4) i'm perfectly fine with the idea of him playing 4th line center on this team... the reason i question that is based on this question: "what is better for him? playing with the phantoms as a 1st line center, or playing with the flyers as a fourth line center?"
It will be far better for Richards to play with the Flyers, even is he is officially on the fourth line. The fact of the matter is, he is too good to not find minutes for. His offense is very underrated around here and he will get PK and PP time for sure.

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06-30-2005, 09:45 AM
  #54
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Whats wrong with playing one of them at wing?

Seems to me that Richards would make a good winger, just like Gagne who was also a center in juniors. He could take over Gagnes spot as defensive third line winger next to Primeau.

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06-30-2005, 09:45 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by GagneOwnsYou
It will be far better for Richards to play with the Flyers, even is he is officially on the fourth line. The fact of the matter is, he is too good to not find minutes for. His offense is very underrated around here and he will get PK and PP time for sure.
a LOT of his offense is opportunistic... those opportunities are going to be less as the competition gets better. doesn't mean he won't be a good offensive player, just that i don't think he has the sorta fluid offensive game that creates chances on his own like Carter (who gets a shot like every shift practically).

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06-30-2005, 09:46 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoJojo
Whats wrong with playing one of them at wing?

Seems to me that Richards would make a good winger, just like Gagne who was also a center in juniors. He could take over Gagnes spot as defensive third line winger next to Primeau.
could happen for sure.

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06-30-2005, 10:32 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
You're saying that playing with Fedoruk and Stevenson isn't a demotion? Come on. If we're going to play Richards, at least let him play with some half decent talent. Instead, we have the guy playing with scrubs. A complete waste of Richards' talent.
I think Somik will make the big club, not Fridge. So a line with Somik-Richards-Stevenson would not be that bad. Of course, I'm sure Hitch will pair Richie with some skilled players at time, but all in all, we have to put these guys somewhere in the lineup!

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06-30-2005, 11:25 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Jester
a LOT of his offense is opportunistic... those opportunities are going to be less as the competition gets better. doesn't mean he won't be a good offensive player, just that i don't think he has the sorta fluid offensive game that creates chances on his own like Carter (who gets a shot like every shift practically).
I don't mean to sound rude, but that my friend is a load of poop. Having watched Richards play extensively, his offensive is not opportunistic. That is an insult about the man's ability. He has an above average shot, great vision, and most importantly, his hockey sense is unbelievable. That's what makes him so well rounded. The man is one of those guys who can see a play develop well before it starts. That explains why he is also so good defensively.

If Richards were 6'2 or 6'3, we'd be raving about how he'd be a top line centerman on the team. But because Mike is like 5'10-5'11, he's viewed as being too small. I'll just throw a few names out there with regards to small centermen......Yzerman, Gilmour, Sakic, Clarke. Not saying that Richards will be like any of them (although he does remind me a whole lot of Gilmour in terms of style of play), but the whole size thing is vastly overrated.

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06-30-2005, 11:26 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Flyman
I think Somik will make the big club, not Fridge. So a line with Somik-Richards-Stevenson would not be that bad. Of course, I'm sure Hitch will pair Richie with some skilled players at time, but all in all, we have to put these guys somewhere in the lineup!
It's not that great of a line either. So, basically with a line up like that, we can expect Richards to score anywhere from 5 to 10 goals and maybe get 15 to 20 assists. A complete waste.

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06-30-2005, 11:31 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Jester
in a year or two, handzus MIGHT be expendable... but not this year. this team is too competitive for them to start unloading major minute guys.

Possbily in a few years, yes, he'll be nearing his 30's, and that's only if we don't trade a bunch of other guys. I think for as long as Hitchcock is here, Michal Handzus is here.

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06-30-2005, 12:31 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
I don't mean to sound rude, but that my friend is a load of poop. Having watched Richards play extensively, his offensive is not opportunistic. That is an insult about the man's ability. He has an above average shot, great vision, and most importantly, his hockey sense is unbelievable. That's what makes him so well rounded. The man is one of those guys who can see a play develop well before it starts. That explains why he is also so good defensively.

If Richards were 6'2 or 6'3, we'd be raving about how he'd be a top line centerman on the team. But because Mike is like 5'10-5'11, he's viewed as being too small. I'll just throw a few names out there with regards to small centermen......Yzerman, Gilmour, Sakic, Clarke. Not saying that Richards will be like any of them (although he does remind me a whole lot of Gilmour in terms of style of play), but the whole size thing is vastly overrated.
a) i don't think that is rude assessment at all.

b) the bold... those aspects of his game allow him to create opportunities off of others... why he is SUCH a good PK'er. also why he gets a lot of chances off of TO's in general... and much of hockey sense is taking advantages of opportunities created by others... NHL players don't leave so many opportunties, you have to create your own. that is NOT to say that he won't get goals off of those types of plays at the NHL level, they just won't be there as much as at the OHL or AHL level...

c) size matters not to me, but if you don't got that you generally have to have something else going for you... like big-time wheels, which he doesn't have. not a bad skater, but not a St. Louis either. let's not even begin to compare him to Yzerman or Sakic (maybe the best wrist-shot in the history of the league), and Clarke played in a completely different NHL. Gilmour is a good comparison, and if he gets to that level i'd be absolutely stoked... but Gilmour's highest point total (granted it was later in his career) in the post-lockout NHL was 72 pts.

if Richards gets to a point in his career where he is playing a true two-way role, which is clearly where his game tends towards, while pulling down 60-70 pts a season... he's going to be real special.

you look at Carter and Richards and they are simply different players. nothing wrong with it, and it is actually great for the organization to have two potential salwarts down the middle that can take on two different roles. Carter is going to be a downhill offensive player (not that he won't be defensively concious) if he pans out, where as Richards is going to play the game a bit more even.

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06-30-2005, 12:38 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
I say we just get rid of the veterans and go with a very young hockey club. We aren't doing Richards and Carter any favours by giving them p*ss poor ice time and how are they supposed to learn if they are only getting 7 to 10 minutes of ice time per game. This isn't a situation where they are 18 years old and coming into the league. The two of them are 20 years old and this is usually the time you want them to have as much ice time as possible.

I know I'll be called a madman for this, but maybe we should be looking at making room for these kids and letting them take over respective positions. Hitch has mentioned previously that he wants to incorporate more youth onto the team and give them bigger roles. What bigger roles could they get if you get rid of the veterans like Roenick and Handzus? Some may call it insane, but I call it giving the kids the opportunities and ice time they need.

#1. Why dump all the vets and go with a very young club? With a few buyouts and two nice signings this team will be one of the 2/3 favorites to WIN the Stanley Cup. You don't ever give up chances to win.

#2. Young players need to earn their icetime. Just giving guys 18-20 minutes a night is assinine. If Richards proves he's better than Handzus he'll take icetime form him.

#3. Nothing wrong with playing 10-12 minutes a night. Gagne and Pitkanen both started in somewhat limited roles and have grown as players. A guy like Zubrus was handed 1st line minutes right away, and it hurt his progress.

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06-30-2005, 04:07 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Nothing wrong with playing 10-12 minutes a night. Gagne and Pitkanen both started in somewhat limited roles and have grown as players. A guy like Zubrus was handed 1st line minutes right away, and it hurt his progress.
Actually, Gagne started on the second line in his rookie year. He was one of Roger Neilson's goto guys. The Flyers were asked by Hockey Canada if they would release Gagne for the WJC tournament and Neilson blocked it because Gagne was playing a critical role for the Flyers.

I know I'm still in the minority on this, but I'm still upset with the way Gagne has been used on this hockey club. One of the best young wingers in the game and he's used primarily on a checking line. I'm so sick of Neutral Zone Crap hockey. Takes talented players like Gagne and turns them into mindless drones.

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06-30-2005, 08:41 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Actually, Gagne started on the second line in his rookie year. He was one of Roger Neilson's goto guys. The Flyers were asked by Hockey Canada if they would release Gagne for the WJC tournament and Neilson blocked it because Gagne was playing a critical role for the Flyers.

I know I'm still in the minority on this, but I'm still upset with the way Gagne has been used on this hockey club. One of the best young wingers in the game and he's used primarily on a checking line. I'm so sick of Neutral Zone Crap hockey. Takes talented players like Gagne and turns them into mindless drones.

Gagne started on the 3rd line and gradually worked his way up.

Gagne will be played in a scoring role this year. Last year with the personel we had it was the best place for him. It was also the line that often got the most icetime.

He will be our #1 scoring LW this year.

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06-30-2005, 08:48 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
I know I'm still in the minority on this, but I'm still upset with the way Gagne has been used on this hockey club. One of the best young wingers in the game and he's used primarily on a checking line. I'm so sick of Neutral Zone Crap hockey. Takes talented players like Gagne and turns them into mindless drones.
erm... yeah... playing defense is like the hardest thing to do... really wouldn't say asking a guy to shutdown another player as turning them into "mindless drones." more like "taking advantage" of a skill very few players have at any high level.

not to mention the fact that Gagne has been played in that role and is about to be unleashed as a scoring-line player on this team is going to improve his value over the course of his career immeasurably. look at the team last year, who were you going to place at that wing spot? Leclair? simply put, made the most sense to put him there and have the others where they were... you take advantage of the skills the players on the team have to make the best TEAM possible... which is what Hitch did.

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06-30-2005, 09:19 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by GagneOwnsYou
Jester, I'm not sure what your problem with Richards is. He is just as ready for the NHL as Carter and will have just as big of an impact.
Unlike Carter, Richards isn't a projected first line centre. Mike Richards will be one of the best 3rd line centre's, and an okay 2nd liner. He's meant to be a two way centre who is superb defensively and will turn out to be a great for the Flyers as he can be put into any situation and succeed. Flyers sure did get a steal picking Richards so late in round 1.

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07-01-2005, 08:28 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Jester
erm... yeah... playing defense is like the hardest thing to do... really wouldn't say asking a guy to shutdown another player as turning them into "mindless drones." more like "taking advantage" of a skill very few players have at any high level.
Last time I checked, I believe several coaches around the league said it is easier to teach someone to play defense than it is to play offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
not to mention the fact that Gagne has been played in that role and is about to be unleashed as a scoring-line player on this team is going to improve his value over the course of his career immeasurably. look at the team last year, who were you going to place at that wing spot? Leclair? simply put, made the most sense to put him there and have the others where they were... you take advantage of the skills the players on the team have to make the best TEAM possible... which is what Hitch did.
Like I've stated on numerous occasions, I'm overly critical of the team because what I see them doing is holding Gagne back from achieving greatness. If they needed a defensive forward on the Primeau line, Somik would have worked just fine. I'm just upset because I see Gagne as a great resource and not just a 35 goal, 70 point winger, but as a 45 goal, 90 point winger. With his speed and his hands, there is no reason why Gagne couldn't get that.

I know people on here talk about two way wingers being valuable and all that other stuff, but what is wrong with having a top scorer? It's almost like we should be ashamed for having a top scorer. I say that when the league starts back up, they let the reins loose on Gagne and let him tear it up. As for the thought of Gagne becoming too one dimensional, impossible. Because he's been so regimented in defensive play, that part of his game we'll never have to worry about. We all know what he can do defensively, now it's time to the let the Flyers open up the game and see what he can do offensively.

Fact of the matter is that checkers are a dime a dozen. If the Flyers were so concerned about putting a great forward on the line with Primeau, there were others besides Amonte and Leclair (agreed with the fact that those two have horrible defensive skills) that could have been used on the wing with Primeau and Kapanen. As previously mentioned, Somik could have been used there. As well, Sharp could have been used there.

As previously mentioned, we have not just a great resource, but a gold mine in Simon Gagne. Yet, for some reason, it's like he's being held back in Philadelphia. Maybe he needs to step up to the plate and maybe he needs to stop being so much of a team guy and force Hitch to eat his words. That being, the youngsters were going to play a more prominent role in the offense on the team. Like I said, I see a 45/90 player in Gagne, and we seem to waste those kinds of opportunities with players.

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07-01-2005, 08:34 AM
  #68
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Defensive guys are great to have, but winning games come down to scoring goals. Tampa won with a fast aggressive offensive attack. Gagne needs to be put into that scoring role, he has the speed and ability to do that and we shouldn't hold him back anymore. Let the young guys off the leash and see what they can do, we failed to get to the Cup with a older team, now bring in the youth and start another run with a faster approach.

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07-01-2005, 08:44 AM
  #69
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Defensive guys are great to have, but winning games come down to scoring goals. Tampa won with a fast aggressive offensive attack. Gagne needs to be put into that scoring role, he has the speed and ability to do that and we shouldn't hold him back anymore. Let the young guys off the leash and see what they can do, we failed to get to the Cup with a older team, now bring in the youth and start another run with a faster approach.

agreed...

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07-01-2005, 08:49 AM
  #70
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Last time I checked, I believe several coaches around the league said it is easier to teach someone to play defense than it is to play offense.
it's easier to coach TEAM defense... how many shutdown centers are there in the league right now? how many shutdown wingers? how many players in this league can you put across from the best line in the league and be reasonably assured that their +/- is going to come out at even over the course of the season?

not that many... let alone Gagne who is CONSISTENTLY a plus in that role... that is absolutely huge for the team. when your guys who are matching up with the top-line for the other team are plus, you are going to win more often than not.

please do not diminish the importance of the role Gagne played on this team, or call it turning a player into a "mindless drone." that's just so far from the truth it isn't funny... it's a team sport and he and Kapanen were probably are two most important wingers last year... playing with our most important center in Primeau.

this isn't to say i'm not stoked to see him on the top-line, he's my favorite player on the team. he deserves to be up there, but do not mistake playing the role he did for this team as somehow a lesser role than what he will take on the top-line.

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07-01-2005, 08:55 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by FlyersProspect2
Defensive guys are great to have, but winning games come down to scoring goals. Tampa won with a fast aggressive offensive attack. Gagne needs to be put into that scoring role, he has the speed and ability to do that and we shouldn't hold him back anymore. Let the young guys off the leash and see what they can do, we failed to get to the Cup with a older team, now bring in the youth and start another run with a faster approach.
I can definitely agree with that and that's why I've been saying that if we're going to buy out Leclair, Amonte and Brashear, we might as well buy out JR as well. Just watch the kids go and see what they can do. We've won nothing with the vets as you've pointed out.

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07-02-2005, 03:46 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
#1. Why dump all the vets and go with a very young club? With a few buyouts and two nice signings this team will be one of the 2/3 favorites to WIN the Stanley Cup. You don't ever give up chances to win.

#2. Young players need to earn their icetime. Just giving guys 18-20 minutes a night is assinine. If Richards proves he's better than Handzus he'll take icetime form him.

#3. Nothing wrong with playing 10-12 minutes a night. Gagne and Pitkanen both started in somewhat limited roles and have grown as players. A guy like Zubrus was handed 1st line minutes right away, and it hurt his progress.
That's my point, Richards will get good ice time because he will earn it. During the course of the season you will see his minutes go way up. You can't play him with Stevenson and Somik (crap & more crap). I just think Richards will earn the ice time and will be centering Stillman and Knuble.

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07-07-2005, 07:17 PM
  #73
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I have to keep repeating myself...Handzus is not...IS NOT....IS NOT trade bait. What are you going to do trade him and then Hitchcock wants another center with playoff experience because he's going to end up giving Carter and Richards 4th line ice time during the playoffs? Yeah right. Handzus hold a lot of value in the league, in this conference and on this team. Guys like Michal Handzus don't grow on trees.
Finally! Someone who agrees with me on Handzus. This guy is greatly underated on this board.

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07-07-2005, 07:20 PM
  #74
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It's not that Handzus is underrated. It's that we have 900 centers right now, and he is fairly young and cheap, and most teams would love to have him, so his value is really high.

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07-07-2005, 07:22 PM
  #75
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I don't mean to sound rude, but that my friend is a load of poop. Having watched Richards play extensively, his offensive is not opportunistic. That is an insult about the man's ability. He has an above average shot, great vision, and most importantly, his hockey sense is unbelievable. That's what makes him so well rounded. The man is one of those guys who can see a play develop well before it starts. That explains why he is also so good defensively.

If Richards were 6'2 or 6'3, we'd be raving about how he'd be a top line centerman on the team. But because Mike is like 5'10-5'11, he's viewed as being too small. I'll just throw a few names out there with regards to small centermen......Yzerman, Gilmour, Sakic, Clarke. Not saying that Richards will be like any of them (although he does remind me a whole lot of Gilmour in terms of style of play), but the whole size thing is vastly overrated.

I also seem to remember reading that it is his skating ability that is not 1st line caliber in the NHL and this is what would stop him from being a number 1, not the size. From what I see, read and hear, it sounds like to me he could be a more gritty, slightly better version of Handzus in the future. A very good two way #2 center who can fill in #1 occasionally, plays in all situations and is not the best skater on the ice.

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