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Forsberg vs Crosby

View Poll Results: Forsberg vs Crosby. Who was better?
Forsberg 78 40.21%
Crosby 116 59.79%
Voters: 194. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-26-2013, 02:58 AM
  #251
Anonymouse
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Crosby now. Forsberg future.

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08-26-2013, 05:49 AM
  #252
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Yet another thread for the Crosby haters to take advantage of.

No offence to Forsberg, but Crosby should be leading this poll by a large margin.

Honestly how many of you that voted for Forsberg know that Forsberg's career season high for goals is 30?

Forsberg was a great player, but I'd take Crosby over him in a heartbeat.

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08-26-2013, 07:25 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Billy6 View Post
Yet another thread for the Crosby haters to take advantage of.

No offence to Forsberg, but Crosby should be leading this poll by a large margin.

Honestly how many of you that voted for Forsberg know that Forsberg's career season high for goals is 30?

Forsberg was a great player, but I'd take Crosby over him in a heartbeat.
Peter Bondra once had a 52 goal season, that doesnīt make him better than Forsberg or Crosby...

The "hate-argument" is getting old. Crosby is when healthy the best player in the world right now. Just as Forsberg was a decade ago. If you choose to just look at stats and media-hype you will probably choose Crosby by a great margin. If you weigh in things as international resumé, Forsbergs Elitserien years, opponents (the teams that Crosby is up against is nothing near pre-cap Detroit, Dallas and so on...), ability to dominate other parts of the game thatīs not scoring, and so on - you realize itīs real close and the choice is probably because of what player you prefer.

For me theyīre both in a quite big group (15-20 centres, wich from todays hockey also includes only Malkin) right after the real elite 3 (maybe 4, if you include Beliveau...). Even if I have them in a special rankingorder I can see people making good arguments for just about everyone of those 15-20 players above/below one each other.

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08-26-2013, 07:31 AM
  #254
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Has everyone forgot how hockey looked like during Forsbergs days? Having one sometimes two guys hanging onto you like a cheap suit was the standard if you were a star player. I'm not saying that Crosby would have done worse in those days but I know Forsberg would have done better in todays hockey. And the cheap shots in those days

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08-26-2013, 07:57 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Billy6 View Post
Honestly how many of you that voted for Forsberg know that Forsberg's career season high for goals is 30?
How many people saying that it's not close know that Forsberg finished top-five in Goals-Per-Game once? Or that he was top-five in Assists-Per-Game in every season he played from 1995-96 to 2005-06? Or that he averaged a 35-goal pace in the playoffs?

Probably fewer than the number of people who know the 30-goal thing that becomes the most important milestone for hockey players in threads about Peter Forsberg. I'm not going to speak ill of Crosby's 2011; that was the best stretch of hockey I've seen since Lemieux. But the Rocket Richard season saw a decline in Assists-Per-Game for Crosby that Forsberg didn't have in his nine-season prime, so let's not pretend that Crosby's high-watermark for Goals didn't come at a sacrifice of playmaking.

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08-26-2013, 08:25 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
How many people saying that it's not close know that Forsberg finished top-five in Goals-Per-Game once? Or that he was top-five in Assists-Per-Game in every season he played from 1995-96 to 2005-06? Or that he averaged a 35-goal pace in the playoffs?

Probably fewer than the number of people who know the 30-goal thing that becomes the most important milestone for hockey players in threads about Peter Forsberg. I'm not going to speak ill of Crosby's 2011; that was the best stretch of hockey I've seen since Lemieux. But the Rocket Richard season saw a decline in Assists-Per-Game for Crosby that Forsberg didn't have in his nine-season prime, so let's not pretend that Crosby's high-watermark for Goals didn't come at a sacrifice of playmaking.
Or maybe his playmaking was fine, but chances didn't get converted on the other end? In any event, it looks like magnification of a minor statistical blip.

'08/09: 0.43 GPG, 0.91 APG
'09/10: 0.63 GPG, 0.72 APG
'10/11: 0.78 GPG, 0.83 APG

How much of a big difference are we trying to make 0.83 from 0.91, especially in the context that he was able to come within 0.08 APG of what was supposedly his "standard", while putting up an improvement of 0.35 GPG over said standard? The 0.72 looks like an outlier lowering the average in that data set, and outliers usually suggest influence of factors outside of the player's control (e.g.: ability of linemates to finish off chances from one year to the next, recovering from injury, etc). It is, in fact, the lowest assist rate you'll find for his entire career so far, so...

But really, this would be like pointing to Forsberg in the '95/96 - '96/97 time frame and drawing the same conclusions:

'95/96: 0.37 GPG, 1.05 APG
'96/97: 0.43 GPG, 0.89 APG

Look! Oh wow! Only a 0.06 rise in GPG made Forsberg's APG fall 0.16 once! Sacrifice (which you claim never happened with Forsberg during his "nine season prime", btw)! At least Crosby's increase in goal scoring rate outweighed the decrease in his assist rate.

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08-26-2013, 08:55 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Or maybe his playmaking was fine, but chances didn't get converted on the other end? In any event, it looks like magnification of a minor statistical blip.

'08/09: 0.43 GPG, 0.91 APG
'09/10: 0.63 GPG, 0.72 APG
'10/11: 0.78 GPG, 0.83 APG

How much of a big difference are we trying to make 0.83 from 0.91, especially in the context that he was able to come within 0.08 APG of what was supposedly his "standard", while putting up an improvement of 0.35 GPG over said standard? The 0.72 looks like an outlier lowering the average in that data set, and outliers usually suggest influence of factors outside of the player's control (e.g.: ability of linemates to finish off chances from one year to the next, recovering from injury, etc). It is, in fact, the lowest assist rate you'll find for his entire career so far, so...

But really, this would be like pointing to Forsberg in the '95/96 - '96/97 time frame and drawing the same conclusions:

'95/96: 0.37 GPG, 1.05 APG
'96/97: 0.43 GPG, 0.89 APG

Look! Oh wow! Only a 0.06 rise in GPG made Forsberg's APG fall 0.16 once! Sacrifice (which you claim never happened with Forsberg during his "nine season prime", btw)! At least Crosby's increase in goal scoring rate outweighed the decrease in his assist rate.
Someone's statistics fell from 1996 to 1997? *gasp* What could possibly explain such a thing?


Forsberg actually climbed from 4th to 3rd in Assists-Per-Game from 1996 to 1997 because of the league-wide scoring decrease. Crosby in 2010 dropped to 13th.

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08-26-2013, 09:11 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Someone's statistics fell from 1996 to 1997? *gasp* What could possibly explain such a thing?


Forsberg actually climbed from 4th to 3rd in Assists-Per-Game from 1996 to 1997 because of the league-wide scoring decrease. Crosby in 2010 dropped to 13th.
Of course, more importantly, his almost exactly the same PPG put him in almost exactly the same position vs his peers in '07/08, '08/09, AND '10/11 - just like Forsberg in the late '90s.

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08-26-2013, 01:13 PM
  #259
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I am from Sweden and in My opinion crosby is by far the better player . Foppa was more physical but that is The only thing he did better then crosby

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08-26-2013, 01:29 PM
  #260
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Crosby AINEC! Forsberg couldnt even put the goal in the net, and Crosbys PO records are, like, so much better than Floppas! Btw, did you guys know that Forsberg never scored more than 30 goals in a season???? Bet you didnt! Sids defensive game, his physicality, his strenght along the boards, how he could protect the puck from SPEZZA behind the goal for, like, 5 seconds....hes just so much better, specially hos puck protection skills. Oh, and by the way, I rank Crosby above guys like Bossy and Hull. They only knew how to put the puck in the net, I like my players to play a 200 foot game! So there!

Oh! And when Forsberg scores a deciding goal in a Olympic final - please tell me.

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08-26-2013, 01:39 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by JAS 39 Gripen View Post
Crosby AINEC! Forsberg couldnt even put the goal in the net, and Crosbys PO records are, like, so much better than Floppas! Btw, did you guys know that Forsberg never scored more than 30 goals in a season???? Bet you didnt! Sids defensive game, his physicality, his strenght along the boards, how he could protect the puck from SPEZZA behind the goal for, like, 5 seconds....hes just so much better, specially hos puck protection skills. Oh, and by the way, I rank Crosby above guys like Bossy and Hull. They only knew how to put the puck in the net, I like my players to play a 200 foot game! So there!

Oh! And when Forsberg scores a deciding goal in a Olympic final - please tell me.
You obviously prefer Forsberg, so what's your point here?

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08-26-2013, 02:04 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by JAS 39 Gripen View Post
Crosby AINEC! Forsberg couldnt even put the goal in the net, and Crosbys PO records are, like, so much better than Floppas! Btw, did you guys know that Forsberg never scored more than 30 goals in a season???? Bet you didnt! Sids defensive game, his physicality, his strenght along the boards, how he could protect the puck from SPEZZA behind the goal for, like, 5 seconds....hes just so much better, specially hos puck protection skills. Oh, and by the way, I rank Crosby above guys like Bossy and Hull. They only knew how to put the puck in the net, I like my players to play a 200 foot game! So there!

Oh! And when Forsberg scores a deciding goal in a Olympic final - please tell me.
You know you can try to actually argue your point, instead of being an ass.

For me Crosby is just ahead of Forsberg atm, give him a few more years and then I'm not sure if it will be close. But right now you can make a legitimate case for Forsberg, not sure why you didn't just do that...

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08-26-2013, 02:30 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Of course, more importantly, his almost exactly the same PPG put him in almost exactly the same position vs his peers in '07/08, '08/09, AND '10/11 - just like Forsberg in the late '90s.
Well, then what was your point exactly when you responded to a post stating that the 51-goal season came at a sacrifice of about a 16 assist pace from his 2008 and 2009 numbers with no significant change in year-to-year scoring trends?

Was it just an excuse to demonstrate an ignorance of 1996 to 1997 scoring?

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08-26-2013, 05:46 PM
  #264
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Ron Francis, C
Brett Hull, RW
Toe Blake, LW
Dave Keon, C
Brendan Shanahan, LW
Peter Stastny, C
Gilbert Perreault, C
Sometimes we ignore common sense numbers if we like a player. When I see non-defensive forwards who never played in international leagues with less than 500 career NHL games and less than 700 career NHL points such as Crosby considered top 100 players all time I just Did they really have better careers than the forwards listed above? I don't think so.

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08-26-2013, 05:56 PM
  #265
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Sometimes we ignore common sense numbers if we like a player. When I see non-defensive forwards who never played in international leagues with less than 500 career NHL games and less than 700 career NHL points such as Crosby considered top 100 players all time I just Did they really have better careers than the forwards listed above? I don't think so.
Doesn't the fact that Crosby is a better player than all those guys mean anything?

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08-26-2013, 06:05 PM
  #266
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Sometimes we ignore common sense numbers if we like a player. When I see non-defensive forwards who never played in international leagues with less than 500 career NHL games and less than 700 career NHL points such as Crosby considered top 100 players all time I just Did they really have better careers than the forwards listed above? I don't think so.
You realize that this very line explains why Crosby can legitimately be considered a Top-100 player?

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08-26-2013, 06:37 PM
  #267
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Well, then what was your point exactly when you responded to a post stating that the 51-goal season came at a sacrifice of about a 16 assist pace from his 2008 and 2009 numbers with no significant change in year-to-year scoring trends?

Was it just an excuse to demonstrate an ignorance of 1996 to 1997 scoring?
Because in my opinion there's a big difference between ending up with fewer of something and having to "sacrifice" something. If it was put in a way that didn't make it sound like Crosby became temporarily unable to distribute the puck as well as he used to, and turned to scoring to "compensate", there wouldn't be a semantic discussion brewing here. He simply seemed to take advantage of improved shooting and more shooting opportunities, but you still only get 60 minutes per night to keep your assist totals climbing, too.

Also, league scoring in '95/96 and '96/97 was (significantly) higher than '09/10 and '10/11, btw, with '08/09 being exactly equal to '96/97.


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08-26-2013, 07:30 PM
  #268
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Wow, Sidney has ~700 points in ~500 games? He's even better than I thought! Thanks for the enlightenment, Hawkman!

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08-26-2013, 07:55 PM
  #269
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with less than 500 career NHL games and less than 700 career NHL points such as Crosby considered top 100 players all time I just
Doesn't that right there explain why he is so highly regarded? Those numbers are extremely impressive. How many other players in the history of the NHL have even had a career points per game rate of 1.41 at any point in their career?

And if the number of games he has played is your big issue with Crosby, than you must not think very highly of Forsberg or Lindros either.

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08-26-2013, 10:39 PM
  #270
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Peter Bondra once had a 52 goal season, that doesnīt make him better than Forsberg or Crosby...

The "hate-argument" is getting old. Crosby is when healthy the best player in the world right now. Just as Forsberg was a decade ago. If you choose to just look at stats and media-hype you will probably choose Crosby by a great margin. If you weigh in things as international resumé, Forsbergs Elitserien years, opponents (the teams that Crosby is up against is nothing near pre-cap Detroit, Dallas and so on...), ability to dominate other parts of the game thatīs not scoring, and so on - you realize itīs real close and the choice is probably because of what player you prefer.

For me theyīre both in a quite big group (15-20 centres, wich from todays hockey also includes only Malkin) right after the real elite 3 (maybe 4, if you include Beliveau...). Even if I have them in a special rankingorder I can see people making good arguments for just about everyone of those 15-20 players above/below one each other.
Actually it was twice. He twice had a 52 goal season.

One of those times he scored 52 goals in only 67 games. And mind you, this was 95-96, the height of the dead puck era. Mighty impressive season, if you ask me.

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08-27-2013, 12:15 AM
  #271
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Actually it was twice. He twice had a 52 goal season.

One of those times he scored 52 goals in only 67 games. And mind you, this was 95-96, the height of the dead puck era. Mighty impressive season, if you ask me.
Average scoring over 82 game season in '95/96: 258 goals
Average scoring over 82 game season in '05/06: 253 goals

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08-27-2013, 01:47 AM
  #272
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Sometimes we ignore common sense numbers if we like a player. When I see non-defensive forwards who never played in international leagues with less than 500 career NHL games and less than 700 career NHL points such as Crosby considered top 100 players all time I just Did they really have better careers than the forwards listed above? I don't think so.
Maybe he isn't in the league of defensive play like Keon and Francis but he is a heck of alot better than Gilbert in that reguard.

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Doesn't the fact that Crosby is a better player than all those guys mean anything?
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
You realize that this very line explains why Crosby can legitimately be considered a Top-100 player?
Pretty much this.

Some people have problem putting Orr as the top Dman and top 4 player of all time but they have a problem with Sid going higher than those guys in the ATD?

Or Bobby Clarke as the 6th best center and 17th overall?

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08-27-2013, 06:27 AM
  #273
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Actually it was twice. He twice had a 52 goal season.

One of those times he scored 52 goals in only 67 games. And mind you, this was 95-96, the height of the dead puck era. Mighty impressive season, if you ask me.
My mistake. Bondra was an impressive goalscorer and had som really good seasons. My point was that more goals scored doesnīt mean better player. For example: in Bondras 94/95 Richard-winning (letīs call it that, even if before the Richard...) season there could be made an good argument that he wasnīt even one of the top 40 players that year. Heck, there could be good arguments that he was "only" the third most important player on that Caps team. Goals are often, in my opionion, overvalued when discussing players overall play. Probably because itīs one of the "easiest" stats to look at.

The point was that saying "Forsberg has only scored 30 goals in a season..." ainīt a good argument here. There are good arguments for Crosby, but that ainīt one.

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08-27-2013, 08:02 AM
  #274
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And mind you, this was 95-96, the height of the dead puck era. Mighty impressive season, if you ask me.
No.


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08-27-2013, 08:28 AM
  #275
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Goals are often, in my opionion, overvalued when discussing players overall play. Probably because itīs one of the "easiest" stats to look at.

The point was that saying "Forsberg has only scored 30 goals in a season..." ainīt a good argument here. There are good arguments for Crosby, but that ainīt one.
I'm with you, I don't care if a player picks up a lot of goals or a lot of assists. But Crosby scoring 50 goals and winning the Richard does show that he can adapt his game and that he has the ability to score a ton of goals or a ton of assists. I think it is a benefit to Crosby's resume that he has proven that.

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