HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

HOH Top 60 Centers of All-Time: Round 1 Preliminary Discussion Thread

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-04-2013, 01:49 AM
  #276
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Just out of curiosity, and it's not his best season, but how would you rank Fran's initial PCHA season compared to the NHL centers in 21?

Does it break into the top 3?

I try to do this a bit with non NHL guys from Russia for example in the 70's but of course it becomes a tier and guessing game to a large degree.
In 1920-21, Fredrickson tied for the PCHA scoring title. I highly doubt he was as good as Newsy Lalonde who won the NHL scoring title that season, and perhaps Joe Malone and Frank Nighbor, both of whom were top 5 NHL scorers would be above him. Hard to say how he compares to Duke Keats, who led the Big 4 in scoring, the season before it because the WCHL. I would imagine Fredrickson was the 3rd of 4th best center in the world that year, behind Lalonde and Nighbor, ahead of Keats, too hard to say with Malone.

In 1921-22, Jack Adams led the PCHA in scoring and was named 1st Team AS center (Fredrickson was 1st Team AS spare), and Keats led the WCHL by a lopsided margin, so Fredrickson (3rd in the PCHA) was definitely behind both of them. Hard to compare to the NHL - Joe Malone (5th) was the highest scoring NHL center, and Frank Nighbor was way down in 18th in scoring - though I suspect Nighbor played an extremely defensive game that season, as his two wingers were 1-2 in NHL scoring.

1922-23 was Fredrickson's best season, when he led the PCHA in scoring by an enormous margin. None of the NHL centers had standout offensive seasons - Babe Dye led the NHL in scoring - and Keats had fallen back to the pack in the WCHL, so Fredrickson was definitely the best center in the world offensively, and you'd have to give Nighbor a ton of credit for his defensive game to not have Fredrickson above him overall for this particular season.

In 1923-24, Fredrickson was 2nd in PCHA scoring, way ahead of any teammate. By this season, the PCHA was starting to bleed talent, as it would go under the next year. Not sure how it would compare to Billy Burch (3rd in NHL scoring), Frank Nighbor (8th in NHL scoring, Hart winner), or Duke Keats (3rd in WCHL scoring, with the WCHL clearly a stronger league than the PCHA by this point). My guess is that Fredrickson was the 4th best center in the world behind those 3, because I think the PCHA really was a weak league by this point.

That covers Fredrickson's 4 seasons in the PCHA


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-05-2013 at 01:33 AM.
TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 02:14 AM
  #277
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Yes of course TDMM. I know who jkrx is, communicate regularly. Older but younger than I poster/member... now, if Sven there was going to cut it... epic FAIL yes?... look, Id love to have seen him "work out" but fact is, he didnt. Ja. Sweden & Finland post WW2, very nasty. Tumba was a Hustler with some would say an unsavory past (WW2). Dont know, care. Fact is, he didnt cut it with the Quebec Aces of the QSHL or AHL or whatever the Hell league they were in at that time so who cares? Inferior player, but BIG player in Europe. Lightweight. Why bother discussing?... next?
I was under the impression that Tumba made a good impression in his tryout, but decided that he didn't like the North American game, so he went back to Europe.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 02:16 AM
  #278
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 17,239
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Keon I can see. Can't see Toews with the offensive skill of Henri Richard, though.
Totally agree. Despite how crude of a method it is, Richard managed 7 top 10 finishes in points receiving very little PP time, Toews had yet to reach one top 10 finish at the age of 25(Richard had four at that point). And I don't see Toews increasing his offensive output by all that much compared to previous years. He'll probably hit 80 points once or twice, bu that's about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
How do people view Sven Tumba for this list?

He's pretty high on my list even though I don't know a lot about him. Seems to be a legendary player in Sweden.

Any big fans or detractors here?
Not a big fan at all. But, I'm one of the biggest detractors of non-Soviet European players from before 1970 so I may be biased. There are simply too many players at center(the deepest position in hockey history) that have proven their worth at the highest level of hockey to put Tumba on this list. His teams lost to Canadian amateurs that couldn't even make the NHL, let alone excel in it. It would require absurd production for me to believe he believe he was that much better than his teammates. And he doesn't have that.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 02:18 AM
  #279
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Not a big fan at all. But, I'm one of the biggest detractors of non-Soviet European players from before 1970 so I may be biased. There are simply too many players at center(the deepest position in hockey history) that have proven their worth at the highest level of hockey to put Tumba on this list. His teams lost to Canadian amateurs that couldn't even make the NHL, let alone excel in it. It would require absurd production for me to believe he believe he was that much better than his teammates. And he doesn't have that.
How would you compare Tumba with Starshinov?

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 06:31 AM
  #280
Sanf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 723
vCash: 500
I donīt know if these help but I had bookmarked couple of PCHA All-Star selection articles where Mickey Ion explains his selections. Might have appeared here earlier havenīt read all the discussions.

From 1920
The Calgary Daily Herald - Mar 9, 1920
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...790,1030811&dq

And from 1922
The Calgary Daily Herald - Feb 24, 1922
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...902,6068563&dq

Also Fred Taylor and Si Griffis selections from 1922 with explanations.
The Vancouver Sun - Feb 19, 1922
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...539,5054967&dq

Also Ions selection from 1925 from WHL which (I guess?) wasnīt the official WHL All-star selection.
The Calgary Daily Herald - Mar 17, 1925
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...375,1721300&dq

Sanf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 07:23 AM
  #281
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,815
vCash: 500
Sven Tumba

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How would you compare Tumba with Starshinov?
Overview of Sven Tumba's 5 game stint in 1957 with the Quebec Aces.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...ght=sven+tumba

Showed enough to be viewed as a 26 year old with NHL possibilities but not a sure thing. Age was against him, adapting to the aggressive checking allowed in the offensive zone, schedule length etc.

Larry Regan had made the jump from the QHL to the NHL a season earlier at roughly the same age and Regan started playing pro hockey while still a junior.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 07:35 AM
  #282
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,815
vCash: 500
PCHA All-Star Teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanf View Post
I donīt know if these help but I had bookmarked couple of PCHA All-Star selection articles where Mickey Ion explains his selections. Might have appeared here earlier havenīt read all the discussions.

From 1920
The Calgary Daily Herald - Mar 9, 1920
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...790,1030811&dq

And from 1922
The Calgary Daily Herald - Feb 24, 1922
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...902,6068563&dq

Also Fred Taylor and Si Griffis selections from 1922 with explanations.
The Vancouver Sun - Feb 19, 1922
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...539,5054967&dq

Also Ions selection from 1925 from WHL which (I guess?) wasnīt the official WHL All-star selection.
The Calgary Daily Herald - Mar 17, 1925
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...375,1721300&dq
One thing that is overlooked about about the PCHA All-Star teams is that in a three team league with very limited substitution, the majority of the starters, 2/3, will make a two team All-Star Team. Not very difficult to do relative to a 6, 12,.....30 team league.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 07:56 AM
  #283
VanIslander
Don't waste my time
 
VanIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 23,863
vCash: 500
Toews? He's so overhyped on these boards. He was choking on the goals in the playoffs but his team won and all is forgiven. He won the Selke in the regular season but wasn't one of the most valuable Hawks this postseason.

The 24 year old has a Conn Smythe and 372 career points in 408 games with one top-10 stat (5th in goals one year, the half season).

He may be projected to become top-80 some day but he's a very marginal top-100 of all time at the moment.


Last edited by VanIslander: 09-04-2013 at 09:23 AM.
VanIslander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 08:11 AM
  #284
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: South Cackalacky
Posts: 50,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Toews? He's so overhyped on these boards. He was choking on the goals in the playoffs but his team won and all is forgiven. He won the Selke in the regular season but wasn't one of the most valuable Hawks this postseason.

The 24 year old has a Conn Smythe and 372 career points in 408 games with one top-10 stat (5th in goals one year, the half season).

He may be projected to become top-80 some day but he's a very marginal top-100 of all time at the moment.

Agreed. Putting Toews in a top 80 list is making way too big a deal of Cup-counting for one player, and of being team captain. The Conn Smythe and Selke are nice, but there's not much else where without doing a whole lot of projection.

Epsilon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 08:22 AM
  #285
Hardyvan123
[email protected]
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Totally agree. Despite how crude of a method it is, Richard managed 7 top 10 finishes in points receiving very little PP time, Toews had yet to reach one top 10 finish at the age of 25(Richard had four at that point). And I don't see Toews increasing his offensive output by all that much compared to previous years. He'll probably hit 80 points once or twice, bu that's about it.
To be fair though it's a lot easier to be top 10 in a 6 team league with only 36 top 6 players than it is in a 30 team league with 180 of them. Throw in all that high end non Canadian talent and the picture becomes a little more murky.

Don't get me wrong Richard will be much higher on my list, he had a long and outstanding career but is his individual peak already that much better than Toews?

Simply put as TDMM has indicated, Toews peak is pretty much on par with some other top 80 guys being considered.



Quote:
Not a big fan at all. But, I'm one of the biggest detractors of non-Soviet European players from before 1970 so I may be biased. There are simply too many players at center(the deepest position in hockey history) that have proven their worth at the highest level of hockey to put Tumba on this list. His teams lost to Canadian amateurs that couldn't even make the NHL, let alone excel in it. It would require absurd production for me to believe he believe he was that much better than his teammates. And he doesn't have that.
I agree on Tumba and a lot of the pre NHL European guys, they got over rated in the top 60 dman project IMO.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 09-04-2013 at 08:29 AM.
Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 08:29 AM
  #286
tony d
Goofy for Commish
 
tony d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind A Tree
Country: Canada
Posts: 53,112
vCash: 500
Yeah, I like Toews a lot. Guy's going to be good for a long time but there's no way he should be on this list at this stage of his career.

__________________
tony d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 08:34 AM
  #287
Mike Farkas
Grace Personified
 
Mike Farkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 6,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Yeah, I like Toews a lot. Guy's going to be good for a long time but there's no way he should be on this list at this stage of his career.
I haven't put together my list yet (though I do plan to), but I can't imagine Toews being on it. The knock on him (for what little there is to complain about) is "not a gamebreaker" and I agree. He brings it defensively and leadership wise and I"m sure over time he will amount to something that puts him on this list. But, albeit blindly, he doesn't strike me as someone I would strongly consider for the list at this point.

So many great centers all time to be throwing in a young like Toews already, in my cursory opinion...

__________________
http://twitter.com/MichaelFarkasHF

YouTube Channel: The Two-Line Pass - Hockey news, knowledge, video breakdowns and more: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKAI...52Q577Q/videos

Latest installment:Ep. 4 - Brady Skjei Evaluation
Mike Farkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 12:37 PM
  #288
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 5,044
vCash: 500
I hope Maltsev is nowhere near the Top List. The most overrated Soviet player of all time, a genuine compiler, who nearly always disappeared in tight games.

Sentinel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 12:47 PM
  #289
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 5,044
vCash: 500
My list of top Soviet centers would be:

Yakushev
Larionov
Firsov
Starshinov
Petrov

Sentinel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 01:00 PM
  #290
amnesiac
Space Oddity
 
amnesiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,487
vCash: 500
any mention of Cyclone Taylor? He was quite high on the top 70 list from 09.

amnesiac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 01:24 PM
  #291
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
One thing that is overlooked about about the PCHA All-Star teams is that in a three team league with very limited substitution, the majority of the starters, 2/3, will make a two team All-Star Team. Not very difficult to do relative to a 6, 12,.....30 team league.
PCHA was 4 teams that was later reduced to 3, but I agree for the most part about PCHA 2nd Team All Stars, which I think need to be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't think anyone thinks PCHA 1st Team All Stars are equal to 1st Team All Stars in the NHL... because even at it's peak, at most half of the best players in the world were in the PCHA (although most of the best ones there played rover).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Agreed. Putting Toews in a top 80 list is making way too big a deal of Cup-counting for one player, and of being team captain. The Conn Smythe and Selke are nice, but there's not much else where without doing a whole lot of projection.
Also his play in the Olympics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
To be fair though it's a lot easier to be top 10 in a 6 team league with only 36 top 6 players than it is in a 30 team league with 180 of them. Throw in all that high end non Canadian talent and the picture becomes a little more murky.
It's probably a little easier to be a top 10 scorer in a smaller league, but by now you realize that you are in the small minority on this board who thinks it is "a lot" easier.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong Richard will be much higher on my list, he had a long and outstanding career but is his individual peak already that much better than Toews?
At his peak, Henri Richard was Toews if Toews was the best even strength scorer in the league. So, yes.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 01:28 PM
  #292
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
My list of top Soviet centers would be:

Yakushev
Larionov
Firsov
Starshinov
Petrov
1) 2 of the 5 on this list weren't centers, unless you want to call Firsov a center because he played as a center for a season or two as his career winded down. Edit: Unless you mean Viktor Yakushev?

2) You don't think Maltsev, the 3rd leading scorer in World Championship history, should be on the list because of how he played in big games, but have Starshinov, who has dominant domestic stats, but was often outperformed by several teammates in the World Championships?


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-04-2013 at 02:31 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 02:18 PM
  #293
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,820
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
My list of top Soviet centers would be:

Yakushev
Larionov
Firsov
Starshinov
Petrov
Do you mean someone else? Yakushev is a winger.

Firsov is also counted as a winger for this project, although he played little center.

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 02:28 PM
  #294
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,815
vCash: 500
Viktor Yakushev

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Do you mean someone else? Yakushev is a winger.

Firsov is also counted as a winger for this project, although he played little center.
Perhaps Viktor Yakushev:

http://icehockey.wikia.com/wiki/Viktor_Yakushev

Center 1959 - 1967, Russian and Soviet HHOF member.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 02:36 PM
  #295
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 5,044
vCash: 500
A brainfart on Yakushev, I apologize. But Starshinov owned the 60s, along with Firsov. He should certainly rank higher than Maltsev who was a classic choker.

Sentinel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 02:56 PM
  #296
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,404
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
A brainfart on Yakushev, I apologize. But Starshinov owned the 60s, along with Firsov. He should certainly rank higher than Maltsev who was a classic choker.
A "choker" who has better accolades and statistics in big games than Starshinov... against better competition too.

I don't think Maltsev had the big game rep of Kharlamov or Mikhailov, but that's why he isn't ranked as high as those guys (if we were to rank all forwards together). As far as I know, the book on Maltsev was that he struggled against Canada's physical game in 1972, but that he held his own in 1976. And he was always one of their better players at the World Championships - the World Championships really seem to be where Maltsev distinguished himself from Petrov.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-04-2013 at 03:03 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 04:08 PM
  #297
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 5,044
vCash: 500
Yes, he thrived against East Germanies and Finlands of the 70s. His career statistics against Canada is 0.5 PPG. His Dynamo never won a Soviet Championship (unlike Spartak and Krylia Sovetov, which managed to break the CSKA stranglehold.

Sentinel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 06:24 PM
  #298
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 11,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Yes, he thrived against East Germanies and Finlands of the 70s. His career statistics against Canada is 0.5 PPG. His Dynamo never won a Soviet Championship (unlike Spartak and Krylia Sovetov, which managed to break the CSKA stranglehold.
From what I remember of Maltsev, he was perceived as being one of the most talented players on the Soviet squads of the 70s. Was his perception as a choker in Russia just yours or in general amongst fans and media?

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 06:28 PM
  #299
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 11,239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Yes of course TDMM. I know who jkrx is, communicate regularly. Older but younger than I poster/member... now, if Sven there was going to cut it... epic FAIL yes?... look, Id love to have seen him "work out" but fact is, he didnt. Ja. Sweden & Finland post WW2, very nasty. Tumba was a Hustler with some would say an unsavory past (WW2). Dont know, care. Fact is, he didnt cut it with the Quebec Aces of the QSHL or AHL or whatever the Hell league they were in at that time so who cares? Inferior player, but BIG player in Europe. Lightweight. Why bother discussing?... next?
In 1999 Tumba was named the best Swedish hockey player of all time.

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/hou...22#fbLoggedOut

Are the Swedes really that lacking in hockey knowledge or are you just a bit too dismissive?

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 07:23 PM
  #300
unknown33
Registered User
 
unknown33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Europe
Country: Marshall Islands
Posts: 3,620
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Are the Swedes really that lacking in hockey knowledge or are you just a bit too dismissive?
I feel that usually for those kind of awards the whole 'Players should be judged only on their accomplishments as hockey players' point is ignored.

unknown33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:34 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. Đ2016 All Rights Reserved.