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HOH Top 60 Centers of All-Time: Round 1 Preliminary Discussion Thread

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Old
09-19-2013, 01:26 AM
  #526
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
How? Please tell us of your "great find".
Surely you know of the childovski site which breaks down each players games and the teams they scored their goals against?

The goal scoring numbers look great until you look at the actual competition.

here is the link for Maltsev

http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_pl....asp?p_id=m005

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09-19-2013, 01:36 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Surely you know of the childovski site which breaks down each players games and the teams they scored their goals against?

The goal scoring numbers look great until you look at the actual competition.

here is the link for Maltsev

http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_pl....asp?p_id=m005
I can't remember if this was answered before. I'm sure all players over a 100 game sample size score more against weak teams than strong teams. But did these players rack up points against weak teams at a significantly greater proportion than other Soviet stars did?

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09-19-2013, 02:11 AM
  #528
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Surely you know of the childovski site which breaks down each players games and the teams they scored their goals against?

The goal scoring numbers look great until you look at the actual competition.
Well, let's look at Petrov's 'unimpressive' goal-scoring, shall we?

- 33 goals in 53 games vs. Czechoslovakia
- 25 goals in 47 games vs. Canada (surely over 50 % of them against 'NHL level' opposition)
- 32 goals in 57 games vs. Sweden
http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_pl....asp?p_id=p007

So his stats are unimpressive... COMPARED TO WHOM??? I don't think any Soviet player has better goal-scoring stats against CSSR than Petrov, for example. His 1972 Summit Series stats (7 pts in 8 games) or 1975-76 Super Series stats (5 pts in 2 games) hardly stand as proof of him not being able to compete at NHL level either. His stats are totally comparable (and often even better) to any Soviet player, including the ones that you approve of, e.g. Makarov and "the great" Larionov. Don't you realize that everything you say about Petrov or Maltsev and their "lack of real competition" also downgrades Makarov's and Larionov's accomplishments in Europe? Or did Makarov's and Larionov's "great" NHL careers impress you so much that it doesn't matter?

BTW, Chidlovski's site doesn't have the assist numbers, and those hardly would make Petrov's or Maltsev's statistics less impressive.

Please try to come up with at least something better... I mean really! Have you watched Petrov or Maltsev play? Were they not impressive? Or are you just arguing, because they never had the chance to play in the NHL... and thus, in your mind, "did not prove themselves"?

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Old
09-19-2013, 02:44 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
No room for either of them on my list. I didn't really get close, either.

I'm looking at Jack Adams, Bernie Nicholls, Jacques Lemaire and Brad Richards closing out my top-80.

You seem to appreciate Nighbor appropriately, which is great. but it makes me even more curious who you must be leaving out to have Cooney that high and be wondering about Sterner.
I ask questions about those I don't know too much about. I'm still playing with My list and narrowing people down. I have Lemaire on My list and have thought about Nicholls. Adams & Richards are most likely an afterthought right now, especially Adams.

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09-19-2013, 02:51 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
No room for either of them on my list. I didn't really get close, either.

I'm looking at Jack Adams, Bernie Nicholls, Jacques Lemaire and Brad Richards closing out my top-80.

You seem to appreciate Nighbor appropriately, which is great. but it makes me even more curious who you must be leaving out to have Cooney that high and be wondering about Sterner.
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Originally Posted by thom View Post
Having followed the habs my entire life Jacques is a tough one to figure.Jacques was a vebutry good player but not even close to Lafleurs level.Yes he did develop into a good 2 way player later in his career.But one should ask HOW many pts would Lafleur had if he played with a great offencive player.Jacques did show up in playoffs and big games but when your winger is getting 30 to 40 more pts in a season and playing on the same line something is not right.Jacques a borderline hall of famer but was a very good player but stats dont tell you where he should be fit.I think he is a top 50 centerman but just
Playoff performance is something that I consider greatly. To Me, great players show up in the playoffs when it's the most important time to be great. That is why this list is really fun & compelling because U need to measure out these attributes, along with Hart trophy votings, Defensive play and scoring when evaluating elite type players.

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09-19-2013, 02:54 AM
  #531
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Nighbor and Taylor are clearly superstars (not just stars) of hockey pre-NHL... the question is,... is Russell Bowie, Frank McGee and anyone else? Dunderdale? MacKay? Fredrickson?

Any superstar of their era ought to get top-60 consideration.

If you ain't got 10 non-NHLers on your top-80ish consideration list, you need to branch out.

I wish this was a top-100 list because the more you look, the more quality one finds. And quibbling about who is better than whom, establishing hierarchy, seems less important than honoring the greats who have played the game.
In the future, I would love to see an top 100 Wingers list. Talk about some cool and interesting debates.

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09-19-2013, 02:55 AM
  #532
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I was looking at his VsX score when I said he was slightly worse than Brind'amour in regular season offense, but I looked again and I think the measure might be unfair in the 1977-78 season.

I mean, Lemaire did finish 4, 5, 10 in points. It's pretty brutal that his percentage score in 1977-78 was less than 80% when he finished 4th in scoring.

1. Guy Lafleur*-MTL 132
2. Bryan Trottier*-NYI 123
3. Darryl Sittler*-TOR 117
4. Jacques Lemaire*-MTL 97
5. Denis Potvin*-NYI 94
6. Mike Bossy*-NYI 91
7. Terry O'Reilly-BOS 90
8. Gilbert Perreault*-BUF 89
Bobby Clarke*-PHI 89
10. Wilf Paiement-CLR 87
Lanny McDonald*-TOR 87

Maybe the Top 3 were just that good in 1977-78? (What an outlier season for Sittler by the way)
It must be Me, but I really don't understand the VsX stuff. It makes My head hurt.

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09-19-2013, 02:59 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
We know that everyone who bothered recording an opinion on the subject thought that Nighbor was the best defensive forward they ever saw.... Extending for decades after he retired.

I think Bobby Clarke is a good comparable for Nighbor both offensively and defensively.

The big difference there is that Lady Byng was so impressed by the way Nighbor dominated without resorting to the violence that was then present in hockey that he inspired her to donate a Trophy - IIRC, the very first Lady Byng Trophy was awarded to Nighbor himself by the Lady, with voting starting the following year. Definitely different from Clarke on that one
I agree about the comparison of Nighbor & Clarke. They are really close together in My rankings.

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09-19-2013, 06:49 AM
  #534
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Frank Nighbor vs Cyclone Taylor

As viewed in 1934.

Frank Nighbor:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...2917%2C2172505

Note, credited for changing the game of hockey from stickhandling to speed so the forward pass aspect does not matter. Also note the attention to the stick length detail and the poke check as opposed to the hook check that others attribute to Nighbor.

Fred "Cyclone" Taylor:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=6893%2C201744

Speed and offensive skills but no mention of defensive skills. Had to have the puck to be effective. Portrayed as entertaining. Popularized the game out west but did not change it or define a position the way Nighbor did.

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09-19-2013, 07:19 AM
  #535
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Russell Bowie and Frank McGee

From 1934.

Frank McGee:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...6940%2C2335499

Speed compared to Howie Morenz, stamina/toughness. Viewed as the best Ottawa Senator. Widely viewed by contemporaries, some still alive in 1934, as the best ever.

Russell Bowie:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=6906%2C512256

Also mentioned as the best ever from the pre NHA era.

Russell Bowie skill and smarts vs the speed and stamina/toughness of Frank McGee.

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09-19-2013, 07:20 AM
  #536
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Pretty sure. I've been in enough ATDs to know this.

http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_GoalsPerGame.php
Fair enough.

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09-19-2013, 07:35 AM
  #537
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Well, let's look at Petrov's 'unimpressive' goal-scoring, shall we?

- 33 goals in 53 games vs. Czechoslovakia
- 25 goals in 47 games vs. Canada (surely over 50 % of them against 'NHL level' opposition)
- 32 goals in 57 games vs. Sweden
http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_pl....asp?p_id=p007

So his stats are unimpressive... COMPARED TO WHOM??? I don't think any Soviet player has better goal-scoring stats against CSSR than Petrov, for example. His 1972 Summit Series stats (7 pts in 8 games) or 1975-76 Super Series stats (5 pts in 2 games) hardly stand as proof of him not being able to compete at NHL level either. His stats are totally comparable (and often even better) to any Soviet player, including the ones that you approve of, e.g. Makarov and "the great" Larionov. Don't you realize that everything you say about Petrov or Maltsev and their "lack of real competition" also downgrades Makarov's and Larionov's accomplishments in Europe? Or did Makarov's and Larionov's "great" NHL careers impress you so much that it doesn't matter?

BTW, Chidlovski's site doesn't have the assist numbers, and those hardly would make Petrov's or Maltsev's statistics less impressive.

Please try to come up with at least something better... I mean really! Have you watched Petrov or Maltsev play? Were they not impressive? Or are you just arguing, because they never had the chance to play in the NHL... and thus, in your mind, "did not prove themselves"?
Surely not, looking at his 1st 12 exhibition games against Canada Petrov has 12 goals in those 12 games, as well as 0 goals in 3 games in the (2)WC and (1) Izvetia Cup.

Maybe some investigation is needed instead of endless cheer leading for certain players?

I don't know yet where to put Petrov or Masltev on my list or even if they make it but their scoring against weaker competition certainly doesn't, and shouldn't help their case.

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09-19-2013, 08:05 AM
  #538
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Center's Role

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Surely not, looking at his 1st 12 exhibition games against Canada Petrov has 12 goals in those 12 games, as well as 0 goals in 3 games in the (2)WC and (1) Izvetia Cup.

Maybe some investigation is needed instead of endless cheer leading for certain players?

I don't know yet where to put Petrov or Masltev on my list or even if they make it but their scoring against weaker competition certainly doesn't, and shouldn't help their case.
Maybe some appreciation is needed of the different role, especially defensively, that a Soviet center was required to fill vs European opponents and vs Canadian opposition.

Example Larianov vs Gretzky or Lemieux, other Canadian centers and Larionov vs European centers. Likewise Petrov or Maltsev against their contemporaries.

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09-19-2013, 12:18 PM
  #539
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IMO Petrov belongs on this list, Maltsev doesn't.

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09-19-2013, 12:39 PM
  #540
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IMO Petrov belongs on this list, Maltsev doesn't.
People who saw them play would disagree with you (that is if you believe awards voting or all-time lists are anything close to approximations of what people who saw them play thought).


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-19-2013 at 12:52 PM.
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09-19-2013, 05:47 PM
  #541
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I know we think of Jack Adams as an NHLer mostly, but don't forgot that he starred in the PCHA too when he played there.



Lemaire = slightly worse offensively than Brind'amour in the regular season and that's before you look at the LaFleur factor (edit: Based on percentages/VsX). But Lemaire was awesome in the playoffs, even before LaFleur arrived.

Lemaire is really one of those guys whose spot on the list depends on an analysis of his playoff performances.
To me, Lemaire is similar to Keon in that he was better than his numbers showed him to be. Especially in the playoffs, both guys stood out (at least every game I saw them play) whether they got on the score sheet or not.

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09-19-2013, 05:49 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Maybe some appreciation is needed of the different role, especially defensively, that a Soviet center was required to fill vs European opponents and vs Canadian opposition.

Example Larianov vs Gretzky or Lemieux, other Canadian centers and Larionov vs European centers. Likewise Petrov or Maltsev against their contemporaries.
I can appreciate the role of a center in the Russian system, yet they score internationally at a pretty good clip in the case of these 2 players as well.

I'm a huge proponent of Feds, Dats and Larinov being more than just their goal scoring and stats

The biggest point is to look at all players with a critical eye and from as many perspectives as possible.

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09-19-2013, 05:54 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
To me, Lemaire is similar to Keon in that he was better than his numbers showed him to be. Especially in the playoffs, both guys stood out (at least every game I saw them play) whether they got on the score sheet or not.
Is it fair to say that Lemaire was slightly better in the playoffs or are guys split on that as well?

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09-19-2013, 05:57 PM
  #544
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All those guys made my list, quite easily. Except McGee. Really short career. Really little substance there . The lore of him running up the score against a weak Dawson team only inflates the legend.
I had both McGee and Fredrickson as marginal. What makes Fredrickson clearly better?


Last edited by Dennis Bonvie: 09-19-2013 at 06:11 PM.
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09-19-2013, 06:01 PM
  #545
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McGee was the Lindros of his time.

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09-19-2013, 06:04 PM
  #546
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Is it fair to say that Lemaire was slightly better in the playoffs or are guys split on that as well?
I think so.

Of course being a Bruins fan perhaps I remember Lemaire from the playoffs a little more than most. Not fondly, but very respectfully.

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09-19-2013, 06:06 PM
  #547
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McGee was the Lindros of his time.
Burned brightly but quickly?

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09-19-2013, 06:10 PM
  #548
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McGee was the Lindros of his time.
In what way? He was listed at 5'6" 150 lbs. I ask this because I'm trying to find a reason to include Him My top 60.

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09-19-2013, 06:11 PM
  #549
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Seems that McGee is getting significantly underrated. Can't believe he couldn't make 70s list. That 'too short career' is about as short as Crosby's...

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09-19-2013, 06:21 PM
  #550
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In what way? He was listed at 5'6" 150 lbs. I ask this because I'm trying to find a reason to include Him My top 60.
He was the fullback for Ottawa's football team. In that era, he was average size, but tough and could play through the toughest of tackles and checks.

Read Brian MacFarlane's It Happened in Hockey write-up on him, including plenty of quotes from eyewitnesses as to his ability to play through checks (google 'frank mcgee tough' ).

He played in 11 Stanley Cup challenges and was the best player clearly at the highest level of competition, averaging three goals a a game over it all.

Only career length keeps him apart from the Taylor and Nighbor level of all-time appreciation.

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