HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

HOH Top 60 Centers of All-Time: Round 1 Preliminary Discussion Thread

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-22-2013, 12:46 PM
  #576
ted1971
History Of Hockey
 
ted1971's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: south jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,111
vCash: 500
Finally done My list after 3 drafts and a lot of moving around. Just have to send it in later today.

ted1971 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-23-2013, 01:26 AM
  #577
VMBM
Amate misericordiam
 
VMBM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,513
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Later on in the second article, he indirectly defines it:



I like that he's including hits and screens that contribute to scoring chances. (Not that Maltsev or Kharlamov was doing much hitting really).

Anyway, hope that it helps puts to rest the silliness that Maltsev couldn't play against Canada, but the poster who keeps pushing that theory seems pretty immune to reason, so probably not.
The one thing I remember is e.g. Espo and Mikhailov shooting the puck a lot (well, obviously in Espo's case), often also from bad angles and stuff. Not that Espo or Mikhailov didn't also truly create many many chances as well.
But since it's all about quantity and not quality (of scoring chance), I think that's why Shadrin's stats, for example, look so poor. I mean, looking just at the table, you would not know that Yakushev was the best Soviet player in the Series or that Shadrin actually played very well (my eye test at least tells me that). Yakushev-Shadrin-Zimin/Anisin line may have not created as many scoring chances as the other big Soviet lines, but it's fair to assume that generally, those were quality chances, and partly that's why Yakushev et al. were also more efficient than other Soviet forward lines.

Even though Petrov doesn't do as well as some other Soviet stars, if you look at the scoring plays with Petrov, for instance, I don't think you can claim he was just a finisher; i.e. he was definitely a part of the 'creating process' on those.

I found only 2 fairly contradictory quotes on Maltsev's play in the Series.

Soviet sports writer Yuri Vanyat opinioned:

Quote:
Alexander Maltsev's play was disappointing and the reason was clear. He seemed intimidated by strong bodychecks delivered by the Canadians.
On the other hand, Canadian defenseman Pat Stapleton said:

Quote:
And number ten, who was that? Oh yeah, Maltsev. He was a smooth athlete, very smooth stride, he moved the puck well.
There is also a mention of Stapleton's defensive partner Bill White being especially impressed by Maltsev (http://www.1972summitseries.com/white.html).

I guess I would rather believe Stapleton and White in this matter! IMO at least Yakushev, Kharlamov and Mikhailov were better than him, though.

In the 1974 Summit Series, Maltsev scored only four points (all goals), but I think Team Canada coach Billy Harris chose him as the best Soviet player in the Series. So even though Maltsev wasn't always a big scorer against Canada, his play got some recognition. I think it could be partly because he was so talented and easy player to like, but were there really many Soviet players who were not talented?


Last edited by VMBM: 09-23-2013 at 02:05 AM.
VMBM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-23-2013, 02:47 AM
  #578
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,407
vCash: 500
yes, I've seen that quote from the Soviet sportswriter accusing Maltsev of struggling with the Canadian physical game in 1972, but maybe it's that he just wasn't as outstanding as he normally was? I've been told (on this board!) that the general sense in Europe was that Maltsev struggled a bit with the physical game in 1972 but that had adjusted by 1976. Either way, just as the Soviet speed and passing game was new to Canada, the Canadian physical game was new to the USSR.

Kind of random, but this is from an interview with Bobby Clarke in 2006:

Quote:
Originally Posted by question
Were Soviet players more skilled one-on-ne?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Clarke
I would not say so, although there were plenty of great players. Kharlamov was an incredible player and he could play physically too. What he was doing with the puck was just unbelievably beautiful. But when I played against Maltsev, I thought to myself that he was the best forward I had ever met on the ice. And I still think so now. He was great in everything – from controlling the puck to face-offs to physical play. And Yakushev! I would say he was the best player of the Series in both teams. Towards the end I looked at him and thought about the great Jean Beliveau, Alexander resembled him so much. He had that special grace, that Jean had. He is one those you could envy in a good way. Everyone would like to play like him: clean, beautiful, presise, strong and always with this one-of-a-kind grace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by question
Who out of the Soviet players you met impressed you the most and what could they, in your opinion, achieve in the NHL?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Clarke
Of course, Tretiak was one of the best goalies. Kharlamov and Yakushev could have won a Hart trophy each – that goes without saying. Petrov and Maltsev would have become NHL stars. The rest of the players of the 1972 team would have at least made the league. Naturally, the NHL hockey was a little bit different from the one the guys were used to, but I am certain, they would have adapted. Like I said, these guys feared nothing.
http://english.portal.sport-express.ru/articles/9_68/
http://hockey-observer.blogspot.com/...o-fighter.html

I mean, I wouldn't say Maltsev was as good as Kharlamov and Mikhailov, but he couldn't have been that far behind, not when his individual accolades are almost identical to their's, and the only knock on him is that most people (other than Bobby Clarke apparently) thought he didn't perform quite as well against Canada as K and M did.

And yes, 1972 was absolutely the highlight of Yakushev's career - something is to be said for being the guy who actually finishes your chances, small sample size or not.

Okay, I'll stop now.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-23-2013 at 02:56 AM.
TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 12:07 PM
  #579
ted1971
History Of Hockey
 
ted1971's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: south jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,111
vCash: 500
How many have sent in Their lists yet? Still working on My bottom 10.

ted1971 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 02:13 PM
  #580
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 44,284
vCash: 1020
Quote:
Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
How many have sent in Their lists yet? Still working on My bottom 10.
We have 3 lists so far, including both project admins (myself and TDMM) who submitted our lists just before the voting was opened to other participants.

Just a bit of advice to anyone doing this for the first time -- don't wait until close to the October 10 deadline to start working on your list. It can be surprisingly time-consuming and difficult to get that top-80 constructed. Now would be a good time to start...

tarheelhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-24-2013, 03:08 PM
  #581
Wrigley
We bad we nationwide
 
Wrigley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Texas Blues
Posts: 7,891
vCash: 500
One of my favorite players from my favorite team just missed my cut.

__________________


Well I was rollin' down the road in some cold blue steel,
I had a bluesman in the back, and a beautician at the wheel.
Wrigley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-25-2013, 11:47 AM
  #582
tony d
Whatareyousmiling at
 
tony d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind A Tree
Country: Canada
Posts: 50,141
vCash: 500
Will be submitting my list by the weekend, possibly even today, see what happens.

__________________
tony d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-25-2013, 07:21 PM
  #583
VanIslander
Don't waste my time
 
VanIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,796
vCash: 500
Did you consider Jack Adams?

VanIslander is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-25-2013, 07:59 PM
  #584
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,185
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Did you consider Jack Adams?
Absolutely..79th

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-25-2013, 08:09 PM
  #585
bigbuffalo313
Registered User
 
bigbuffalo313's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 3,855
vCash: 500
Submitted my list earlier today. Not as informed as some others doing this so I am expecting there to be some questions asked about it

bigbuffalo313 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-25-2013, 10:26 PM
  #586
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 27,730
vCash: 500
List technically done -- as in, the 80 guys that will make it are put down.

But since I jumped Bergeron and H. Smith quite a bit in the last 3 minutes, I'll wait 'till friday or so before sending it.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2013, 10:39 AM
  #587
DisgruntledGoat
Registered User
 
DisgruntledGoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,979
vCash: 500
I wish I had the time to submit a list. I considered doing a half-assed one (just so I could participate in the conversations afterwards which, I'm sure, will be great) but ultimately decided that would be a disservice to the project and the amount of effort some people are putting into it.

I will be following it closely, though!

DisgruntledGoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2013, 10:40 AM
  #588
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
I wish I had the time to submit a list. I considered doing a half-assed one (just so I could participate in the conversations afterwards which, I'm sure, will be great) but ultimately decided that would be a disservice to the project and the amount of effort some people are putting into it.

I will be following it closely, though!
You have 2 more weeks!

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2013, 10:48 AM
  #589
DisgruntledGoat
Registered User
 
DisgruntledGoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,979
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You have 2 more weeks!
I may still try. My schedule and need to educate myself on a few pre-NHL guys will make it tough, though.

DisgruntledGoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2013, 01:06 PM
  #590
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,407
vCash: 500
You guys all do have until Oct 10 to submit lists, but if you are almost done, there is no need to wait until the deadline.

It does speed up the screening process somewhat to receive more lists earlier.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2013, 01:53 PM
  #591
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 27,730
vCash: 500
My list, comprising 7 active players, 11 mainly Pre-NHL or West Leagues and 6 mostly european players, has been sent.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2013, 04:50 PM
  #592
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 10,828
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
My list, comprising 7 active players, 11 mainly Pre-NHL or West Leagues and 6 mostly european players, has been sent.
11 of the 80 best centers from mainly pre-NHL players? Wow.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2013, 04:54 PM
  #593
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
11 of the 80 best centers from mainly pre-NHL players? Wow.
Perhaps he means pre-consolidation (1926), not pre-NHL (1918)? Then guys like Nighbor, Lalonde, Malone, and Taylor would be included. (Well I guess Taylor is included anyway).

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2013, 05:00 PM
  #594
tony d
Whatareyousmiling at
 
tony d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind A Tree
Country: Canada
Posts: 50,141
vCash: 500
Submitted my list earlier today. Lots of tough choices but I think it's a good list.

tony d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2013, 08:13 PM
  #595
ted1971
History Of Hockey
 
ted1971's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: south jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,111
vCash: 500
Sending My list on Sunday via the HOH Link.

ted1971 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2013, 09:32 PM
  #596
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 27,730
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
11 of the 80 best centers from mainly pre-NHL players? Wow.
I meant either pre-NHL or/and WCHL, and all the guys TDMM named are in and counted in that 11.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-28-2013, 11:19 PM
  #597
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,558
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
11 of the 80 best centers from mainly pre-NHL players? Wow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Perhaps he means pre-consolidation (1926), not pre-NHL (1918)? Then guys like Nighbor, Lalonde, Malone, and Taylor would be included. (Well I guess Taylor is included anyway).
Still 11 of top 80 playing exclusively in the first 3 decades of organized professional hockey?

But I guess after the top 20 or so the order will be considerably different.

Maybe he has only 5 wingers on the next project?

Still trying to sort out my tiers, starting a new job and moving so I might bow out will know more in 2 or 3 days.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-29-2013, 08:18 AM
  #598
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Still 11 of top 80 playing exclusively in the first 3 decades of organized professional hockey?
Why not? That's 14% of the list devoted to players who played during the first 25% or so of hockey's existence. I think that's pretty reasonable.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-29-2013, 09:25 AM
  #599
the edler
Cory Schneider fan
 
the edler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,821
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I know many of you know this already, but if you don't, a quick and easy way to get a general overview of a player is to google his name with the word "legends" after it. For most players, you will get links to two different profiles of the player: his profile on LegendsOfHockey.com, the which is officially affiliated with the Hockey Hall of fame; and his profile on GreatestHockeyLegends.com, a great blog by Joe Pelletier. Pelletier's blog in particular usually contains good profiles of non-NHL European players.
^ I think the player bios at the HHOF site in general is pretty good and fair, but the one on great PCHA center Bernie Morris is suspect at best. The first two lines reads

Quote:
Originally Posted by HHOF
Forward Bernie Morris had a 20-year hockey career which included a six-game stint with the NHL's Boston Bruins in 1924-25. It was the highlight of his career, getting to play alongside the likes of Jimmy Herberts, Carson Cooper and Stan Jackson.
Yeah, OK? He won the 1916–17 PCHA scoring title and then went on to win the Stanley Cup in 1917 with the Metropolitans while pulverizing the Montreal Canadiens scoring 14 goals in 4 games in the finals, but "the highlight of his career" was when he played 6 games with the Bruins in 1924–25 with Herbert, Cooper and Jackson in the very much twilight of his career?

I don't know if the writer made a hiccup there and confused the words highlight and twilight, but even if you put twilight in there it's still a pretty strange sentence.

The last bit of the second paragraph says

Quote:
Originally Posted by HHOF
Morris settled in with the Seattle Metropolitans of the PCHA for seven years where he most often led the team in goal scoring. During his time in the PCHA he was a seven-time all-star selection.
Yeah, that's nice, but he didn't only lead his team in goals but in points pretty much every season, and many times by a large margin. He had a stretch from 1916–1919 where he finished 2–1–2–2 in the PCHA points race. The second places naturally only behind the great Cyclone Taylor. Then he was arrested, disappeared for a season, and when he came back he was never really the same, even though he scored at a PPG pace in 1921, 1922 and [almost] 1923. In those three seasons HOF teammate Frank Foyston outscored him by the total amount of 7 points, 6 of them in Morris' first year back from detention camp.

I'm not about to submit a list, but if I did Morris would be on it. Other PCHA center forwards who could be on it is Frank Fredrickson and Tommy Dunderdale.

the edler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-29-2013, 09:31 AM
  #600
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 10,828
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Still 11 of top 80 playing exclusively in the first 3 decades of organized professional hockey?

But I guess after the top 20 or so the order will be considerably different.

Maybe he has only 5 wingers on the next project?

Still trying to sort out my tiers, starting a new job and moving so I might bow out will know more in 2 or 3 days.
Don't do it!

Losing your unique perspective would hurt the project.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:43 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2016 All Rights Reserved.