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2014 - Canada Roster Discussion (Part VII)

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09-19-2013, 03:53 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
1-They'd have better coaching than whatever trash (pardon the expression) Canada sends to the WC.

2-These players are extremely coachable and are definitely more experienced than what Canada sends to the WC. No ''Skinner''s: no extremely talented forwards who are awful defensively and don't know what it takes to win. I pick Skinner here because he is the poster boy for this type of player.

3-Just stifling defense. This team can shut down any team in the world. All the players for the most part are exceptional defensive players, and as we all know, defense wins championships.



.... don't think I picked just random Canadian players here. These guys are very good two-way players that I to

Hey, I'm no fan of Skinner either... I'm sick of his one spin move coming down the wing. But I don't share your opinion that the team you picked would have that much success in an A level tournament.

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09-20-2013, 09:08 AM
  #402
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Definitely not. Gordon is awesome
Gordon is an NHL 3rd liner. Hes also a 3rd liner on TC? No. If you want to build an non-superstar team that might compete, you can leave out the Toews, Crosby, Stamkos... but at least put in some guys like Spezza and Benn.

Jamie Benn - Jason Spezza - Brent Burns
Ryan O'Rielly - Logan Couture - Bryan Little
Evander Kane - Kyle Turris - Justin Williams
Andrew Ladd - Jordan Staal - Brad Marchand
- Josh Bailey and Jeff Skinner

Francois Beauchemin - Travis Hamonic
Dan Hamhuis - Jason Garrison
Marc-Edouard Vlasic - Justin Schultz
- Marc Methot and Kevin Bieksa

Braden Holtby
James Reimer
- Jonathan Bernier

At least half the forward are very good defensively. The rest are still at least decent defensively.

The defense now has two right handed defenders instead of one and I take Hamonic and Schultz over Spurgeon and Methot in the top 6. Bieksa over Gorges since he is a RHD and is better offensively.

You had an AHL goaltender going to the Olympics...

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09-20-2013, 11:05 AM
  #403
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Im sorry but Bourque, Pageau, Greening, Pouliot, Gordon and Spurgeon?

I get where you were going with this but it would actually be worse than a WC team.


Agree 100%... That would be no better than an average NHL team and we stopped sending club teams to the WHC in the 60s or before that even...can't remember when we stopped as it was before my time....we woke up and realized club teams are just not good enough to compete at elite level tournaments. When Canada was sending junior club team teams to the World Juniors...it didn't turn out too well...Finally HC realized we needed a real national junior team program and voila...1st year of its existence we won the damn thing...

Short elite level tournaments are won with elite level players...

Let's just say, hypothetically speaking, the Black Hawks were 100% made up of Canadian born players and they were sent to play the WHC as Team Canada.
That would be one thing as they do have team structured play.... but picking a few random average NHL players and throwing them together in the hope "team play" can somehow develop quickly and in a short tournament would be a recipe for disaster. In my humble opinion... Mandy seems to think otherwise though...which is fine... interesting debate for sure...

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09-20-2013, 10:21 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by LeHabsMan View Post
Gordon is an NHL 3rd liner. Hes also a 3rd liner on TC? No. If you want to build an non-superstar team that might compete, you can leave out the Toews, Crosby, Stamkos... but at least put in some guys like Spezza and Benn.

Jamie Benn - Jason Spezza - Brent Burns
Ryan O'Rielly - Logan Couture - Bryan Little
Evander Kane - Kyle Turris - Justin Williams
Andrew Ladd - Jordan Staal - Brad Marchand
- Josh Bailey and Jeff Skinner

Francois Beauchemin - Travis Hamonic
Dan Hamhuis - Jason Garrison
Marc-Edouard Vlasic - Justin Schultz
- Marc Methot and Kevin Bieksa

Braden Holtby
James Reimer
- Jonathan Bernier

At least half the forward are very good defensively. The rest are still at least decent defensively.

The defense now has two right handed defenders instead of one and I take Hamonic and Schultz over Spurgeon and Methot in the top 6. Bieksa over Gorges since he is a RHD and is better offensively.

You had an AHL goaltender going to the Olympics...
Gordon is absolutely elite and la crème de la crème of 3rd liners.

Jordan Staal was absolutely brutal defensively last year and is generally one of the most overrated players in the league. As was Benn. Skinner might have been the worst defensive player in the league last year.

As a Sens fan, I take Turris over Spezza in terms of all around game every time.

Not a fan of Bieksa. I take Spurgeon over Schultz.

Evander Kane - meh.

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[/B]

Agree 100%... That would be no better than an average NHL team and we stopped sending club teams to the WHC in the 60s or before that even...can't remember when we stopped as it was before my time....we woke up and realized club teams are just not good enough to compete at elite level tournaments. When Canada was sending junior club team teams to the World Juniors...it didn't turn out too well...Finally HC realized we needed a real national junior team program and voila...1st year of its existence we won the damn thing...

Short elite level tournaments are won with elite level players...

Let's just say, hypothetically speaking, the Black Hawks were 100% made up of Canadian born players and they were sent to play the WHC as Team Canada.
That would be one thing as they do have team structured play.... but picking a few random average NHL players and throwing them together in the hope "team play" can somehow develop quickly and in a short tournament would be a recipe for disaster. In my humble opinion... Mandy seems to think otherwise though...which is fine... interesting debate for sure...
Like I said, these guys aren't random average players. I did specifically try to exclude any guys that are considered locks for Sochi. But, other than that, I believe these guys are the next best things available. I could have thrown in a Sharp or RNH I guess but I wanted to exclude for the most the what people consider ''stars''.


The majority of these players whether you realize or not provide top level two-way play. A lot of those guys are better all around players than say, Matt Duchene. Guys like Stamkos, Giroux, Tavares, Hall... just aren't good defensively at this point in their careers.

A guy like Gordon is literally 2 or 3 times the defensive player these guys are. And it plays a huge role on the scoreboard.


The whole point of my roster was to create a roster with relatively no name players that would do extremely well as a team. I think these players are EXTREMELY underrated, and obviously my suspicion is confirmed by your sentiments.

These guys aren't average. They're not Craig Adams, Brendan Morrow, Sam Gagner, Lecavalier, Briere, Boyes, Johansen, whatever.


While you measure how good a player is by how many points he scores, I can safely say I wouldn't take Skinner, Lecavalier, Gagner, Versteeg, etc over any of those players.

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09-21-2013, 04:05 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Gordon is absolutely elite and la crème de la crème of 3rd liners.

Jordan Staal was absolutely brutal defensively last year and is generally one of the most overrated players in the league. As was Benn. Skinner might have been the worst defensive player in the league last year.

As a Sens fan, I take Turris over Spezza in terms of all around game every time.

Not a fan of Bieksa. I take Spurgeon over Schultz.

Evander Kane - meh.



Like I said, these guys aren't random average players. I did specifically try to exclude any guys that are considered locks for Sochi. But, other than that, I believe these guys are the next best things available. I could have thrown in a Sharp or RNH I guess but I wanted to exclude for the most the what people consider ''stars''.


The majority of these players whether you realize or not provide top level two-way play. A lot of those guys are better all around players than say, Matt Duchene. Guys like Stamkos, Giroux, Tavares, Hall... just aren't good defensively at this point in their careers.

A guy like Gordon is literally 2 or 3 times the defensive player these guys are. And it plays a huge role on the scoreboard.


The whole point of my roster was to create a roster with relatively no name players that would do extremely well as a team. I think these players are EXTREMELY underrated, and obviously my suspicion is confirmed by your sentiments.

These guys aren't average. They're not Craig Adams, Brendan Morrow, Sam Gagner, Lecavalier, Briere, Boyes, Johansen, whatever.


While you measure how good a player is by how many points he scores, I can safely say I wouldn't take Skinner, Lecavalier, Gagner, Versteeg, etc over any of those players.

I get what you were trying to do, I've been trying to do the same thing, (playing with rosters for the WHC. I can't come up with a line-up I like and yours doesn't appeal to me either...maybe others can chime in, like jackslater or 86Habs) since this is an Olympic year and HC will come up with one of those wonky rosters this coming April, just as they did in 2010 when they sent a collection of 18 and 19 year olds with a whole lot of players named "who' and along with 1 Olympian (C. Perry) I think they finished 7th that year. So, I respectively disagree with your opinion, I don't think the team your picked would be any better than that. But hey, I'd love to see HC try such a line-up for the WHC as well....because well, who cares about that tournament anyway??? and it would be an interesting case study in team selection/building. So. email HC with your roster, HC is crazy and stupid enough to try anything in what they sell to us as "the Olympic Cycle" so long as they don't have to cover the insurance nut on big time NHL contracts... that's the only reason HC goofs around with the roster anyway..


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09-21-2013, 09:40 AM
  #406
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I get what you were trying to do, I've been trying to do the same thing, (playing with rosters for the WHC. I can't come up with a line-up I like and yours doesn't appeal to me either...maybe others can chime in, like jackslater or 86Habs) since this is an Olympic year and HC will come up with one of those wonky rosters this coming April, just as they did in 2010 when they sent a collection of 18 and 19 year olds with a whole lot of players named "who' and along with 1 Olympian (C. Perry) I think they finished 7th that year. So, I respectively disagree with your opinion, I don't think the team your picked would be any better than that. But hey, I'd love to see HC try such a line-up for the WHC as well....because well, who cares about that tournament anyway??? and it would be an interesting case study in team selection/building. So. email HC with your roster, HC is crazy and stupid enough to try anything in what they sell to us as "the Olympic Cycle" so long as they don't have to cover the insurance nut on big time NHL contracts... that's the only reason HC goofs around with the roster anyway..
Lol is there a way to e-mail the big boys at Hockey Canada?
''Stop taking Skinner!!''


The best offensive players are the highest paid players and the ''stars''. I'm trying to find value in other areas of the game, like puck possession and shutdown ability. That team could very well give up 0 or 1 goal a game. All they have to do score is 1 or 2 goals.

When you send young scoring stars to the WC, they don't seem to score much anyway and are bad defensively, and end up losing.

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09-21-2013, 12:58 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
The best offensive players are the highest paid players and the ''stars''. I'm trying to find value in other areas of the game, like puck possession and shutdown ability. That team could very well give up 0 or 1 goal a game. All they have to do score is 1 or 2 goals.
I didn't know Michel Therrien posted on these boards.

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09-22-2013, 03:21 AM
  #408
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[QUOTE=MandyAlwaysKnows;71364705]Lol is there a way to e-mail the big boys at Hockey Canada?
''Stop taking Skinner!!''


You circulate the petition asking HC exactly that, I'll sign it.

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09-23-2013, 11:53 AM
  #409
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Lol is there a way to e-mail the big boys at Hockey Canada?
''Stop taking Skinner!!''

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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
You circulate the petition asking HC exactly that, I'll sign it.
Skinner is not even close to being the problem with Canada at the WCs. Coaching, defence and player attitudes are the primary issues, not the fourth line LW.

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09-23-2013, 12:03 PM
  #410
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Skinner is not even close to being the problem with Canada at the WCs. Coaching, defence and player attitudes are the primary issues, not the fourth line LW.
I don't think you should get an argument about that; I really can't believe Lindy Ruff will be in Sochi.

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09-23-2013, 01:39 PM
  #411
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I don't think you should get an argument about that; I really can't believe Lindy Ruff will be in Sochi.
No room for someone like Quenneville, Trotz or Tippet to coach the D when Ruff is available. It's a no-brainer.

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09-23-2013, 01:59 PM
  #412
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Skinner is not even close to being the problem with Canada at the WCs. Coaching, defence and player attitudes are the primary issues, not the fourth line LW.
Forwards play a role in defense, obviously. Always picking one dimensional offensive players like Skinner, Stamkos, Duchene, Giroux, Eberle, etc is why Canada is bad at the WC. You can't expect to win with a forward corps that weak defensively.

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09-23-2013, 02:59 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Forwards play a role in defense, obviously. Always picking one dimensional offensive players like Skinner, Stamkos, Duchene, Giroux, Eberle, etc is why Canada is bad at the WC. You can't expect to win with a forward corps that weak defensively.
Yes, forwards are obviously involved in defence. That being said, the fourth line LW (not playing PK) has the most insignificant defensive responsibility on the team, along with his counterpart at RW. The bigger issue is the collection of poor defencemen that get sent over regularly. Canada has sent over enough defensively responsible forwards, in addition to those with tremendous offensive ability, to win. The team typically plays in a very lazy manner and with bone headed tactics. Skinner is not responsible for those problems.

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09-23-2013, 03:47 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Forwards play a role in defense, obviously. Always picking one dimensional offensive players like Skinner, Stamkos, Duchene, Giroux, Eberle, etc is why Canada is bad at the WC. You can't expect to win with a forward corps that weak defensively.
2 of the top 10 NHL forwards is the reason why Canada doesnt do well at the WC?

I agree that they need defensively responsible forwards but you need those guys too.

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09-23-2013, 08:21 PM
  #415
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No room for someone like Quenneville, Trotz or Tippet to coach the D when Ruff is available. It's a no-brainer.
Ruff sucks: Why was his team terrible for the entirety of his coaching career? Why did team Canada suck while his youngest and best players remained on the bench?

Answer: Ruff is a terrible coach who let's younger, more talented players remain on the bench while slower, more terrible players take the ice, and cost us games. He is the exact oppossite of what this team needs; or in other words, he's the Olympic team's Steve Spott.

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09-24-2013, 03:58 AM
  #416
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Skinner is not even close to being the problem with Canada at the WCs. Coaching, defence and player attitudes are the primary issues, not the fourth line LW.
I respect your opinion Jack, and you're right, Skinner is not to blame, I mean I just love his ice-escapades' routine and his countless pirouettes coming down the wing resulting in absolutely nothing. I give him 10 out of 10 in style points... maybe Skinner should have pursued figure skating more. Player attitudes? Other than Getzlaf/Perry/Benn out getting their boogie on in a Helsinki disco...I can't recall anything atrocious.. the attitude adjustment has to come from Hockey Canada and their insistence that each WHC can be won while simultaneously winning the next Olympic gold medal. Name a permanent coach (Andy Murray) pay him whatever he wants (the 3 top goofs at HC can all take a pay cut to afford his salary) and cap the number of Skinner type players, forget the next Olympics that is 4, 3 or 2 years in the future...HC has to go all in on each tournament or ****off don't bother wasting my time with this PR nonsense of "Olympic Cycles".

On the good news front M Staal played a lot of minutes last night and scored a goal..lets hope he continues to get back into elite form. I think him paired up with either Weber or Doughty would be super.


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09-24-2013, 07:43 AM
  #417
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Ruff sucks: Why was his team terrible for the entirety of his coaching career? Why did team Canada suck while his youngest and best players remained on the bench?

Answer: Ruff is a terrible coach who let's younger, more talented players remain on the bench while slower, more terrible players take the ice, and cost us games. He is the exact oppossite of what this team needs; or in other words, he's the Olympic team's Steve Spott.
Yeah, he's pretty bad. I am guessing that Babcock is comfortable with him, but there's no need to trot Ruff out there with all of the other quality Canadian coaches just sitting at home during the Olympics.

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I respect your opinion Jack, and you're right, Skinner is not to blame, I mean I just love his ice-escapades' routine and his countless pirouettes coming down the wing resulting in absolutely nothing. I give him 10 out of 10 in style points... maybe Skinner should have pursued figure skating more. Player attitudes? Other than Getzlaf/Perry/Benn out getting their boogie on in a Helsinki disco...I can't recall anything atrocious.. the attitude adjustment has to come from Hockey Canada and their insistence that each WHC can be won while simultaneously winning the next Olympic gold medal. Name a permanent coach (Andy Murray) pay him whatever he wants (the 3 top goofs at HC can all take a pay cut to afford his salary) and cap the number of Skinner type players, forget the next Olympics that is 4, 3 or 2 years in the future...HC has to go all in on each tournament or ****off don't bother wasting my time with this PR nonsense of "Olympic Cycles".

On the good news front M Staal played a lot of minutes last night and scored a goal..lets hope he continues to get back into elite form. I think him paired up with either Weber or Doughty would be super.
By attitude I am talking about the way that they play. Lazy, and down to the level of their opposition. Tendency to sit back on leads as well, though this issue seems widespread.

I change my opinion on whether or not there should be one head coach. I do think that it would improve results in the short term if it was the right person (Murray) but it would also block other Canadian coaches from getting some international experience. For example, I am glad that Babcock was able to be Canada's head coach in 2004.

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09-24-2013, 09:27 AM
  #418
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No room for someone like Quenneville, Trotz or Tippet to coach the D when Ruff is available. It's a no-brainer.
I don't get it guys, is Ruff a bad coach or what? I think he's a very, very good coach and I'm ok with him being in the coaching stuff. I would love to see Quenneville there too though.
The thing with Hall at the whc is overrated. Hall had not a best tournament, but I don't get it how bad Ruff looks here when there is talking about this. ..

EDIT: Julien is in, he's defensively a good coach too, for sure. But I still miss Quenneville ..


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09-24-2013, 08:41 PM
  #419
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On the good news front M Staal played a lot of minutes last night and scored a goal..lets hope he continues to get back into elite form. I think him paired up with either Weber or Doughty would be super.
Scored tonight as well - I think; sound is off.

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09-25-2013, 03:23 AM
  #420
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Scored tonight as well - I think; sound is off.
Fantastic. It's early, can't put too much stock into pre-season stats, he has to keep it going...although I doubt any of the coaches are looking at Staal to lead the attack...but I think with him in form our left side D looks to be in good shape... plus I'm just a big fan of the Thunder Bay brothers.

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09-25-2013, 04:14 AM
  #421
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Forwards play a role in defense, obviously. Always picking one dimensional offensive players like Skinner, Stamkos, Duchene, Giroux, Eberle, etc is why Canada is bad at the WC.
Depth players and defensively responsible forwards over skill and talent got us where exactly in the 2006 Olympics?


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You can't expect to win with a forward corps that weak defensively.
The Russians won the WC back to back years in 2008-2009 with a main forward crops that weren't even "average" defensively.


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09-25-2013, 06:36 AM
  #422
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The Russians won the WC back to back years in 2008-2009 with a main forward crops that weren't even "average" defensively.
Fans always hold the Canadian team to a higher standard, for whatever reason. The same people will come in this thread and complain that Canada needs all kinds of elite defensive forwards and physical presences, and then point to Russia for example and say that their team is great.

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09-25-2013, 07:17 AM
  #423
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Fans always hold the Canadian team to a higher standard, for whatever reason. The same people will come in this thread and complain that Canada needs all kinds of elite defensive forwards and physical presences, and then point to Russia for example and say that their team is great.
Of course, it gives them something on which to base an argument. Let's remember from 2003-09, in a 7 year span at the WHC we played in 5 gold medal games, winning 3 + sandwiched around that were 2 Olympic gold medals and 5 U20 gold medals playing in 10 consecutive gold medal games.. we were lapping the competition. Post Vancouver HC has either become engorged by that success and as a result, lazy, or, my personal belief, they have backed off a little and have thrown a few tournaments, but for the past few years sort of struggle to come up with a winning formula. Either way, if 2013/14 goes poorly, then, as I like to call them, the 3 goofs at the top of the Hockey Canada ponzi scheme should all resign. 3 tournaments U18/U20 and Sochi. At the very least I expect 2 gold medal game appearances and 1 gold medal. Juniors and Olympics being the most import...U18...not so much.. but would like to see what a line of Konecny Mcdavid and Barzal could do there. all 3 centers I know but put them together on the PP and watch out... lethal.

more proof of just how little we value the World Hockey Championships...even though mentioning it in the post, I completely forgot to list it as an important tournament in the up-coming season.... so add it to the list..


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09-25-2013, 08:41 AM
  #424
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I don't get it guys, is Ruff a bad coach or what? I think he's a very, very good coach and I'm ok with him being in the coaching stuff. I would love to see Quenneville there too though.
The thing with Hall at the whc is overrated. Hall had not a best tournament, but I don't get it how bad Ruff looks here when there is talking about this. ..

EDIT: Julien is in, he's defensively a good coach too, for sure. But I still miss Quenneville ..
Ruff is a mediocre coach. That is the issue. The vast majority of quality NHL coaches are Canadian, and there are a few outside of the NHL that would also be preferable. He's only an assistant so it's not a massive issue, but there are better choices.

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09-25-2013, 09:44 AM
  #425
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Fantastic. It's early, can't put too much stock into pre-season stats, he has to keep it going...although I doubt any of the coaches are looking at Staal to lead the attack...but I think with him in form our left side D looks to be in good shape... plus I'm just a big fan of the Thunder Bay brothers.
Me too.

It would be awesome to see Marc, Eric and Jordan together.

I would say their chances are: 1. Eric, 2. Marc, 3. Jordan ... Eric is almost a lock, Marc has a big chance since he's a LHer. Idk about Jordan, I can imagine him and Bergeron together, maybe with Hall on the left side (or Duchene / Carter / Nash / Sharp / Richards / Marchand ... plenty of options...) I'm not sure about Jordan Staal. He's not in my roster now, but he may play himself into the team.

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