HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Changing how we Score Assists. Would it work? Is it worth it?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-20-2014, 04:08 PM
  #1
Todds Chiropractory
Registered User
 
Todds Chiropractory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,107
vCash: 50
Changing how we Score Assists. Would it work? Is it worth it?

Alright so this is something that has bothered me for some time so I'm looking to start a little bit of a debate around the topic. The main issue being, due to the amount of value put in the amount of points a players scores per year, there is very little control to determine whether a player really "earned" an assist or not. And this can lead to highly inflated point totals of players who really didn't contribute to as much offence as their point totals suggest.

The current system of simply taking on the 2 last players who touched the puck and assuming they had a direct effect on the play building to goal, has worked quite well for many years, as it is incredibly easy and takes no real judgment of any sort. Yet when player X passes the puck to teammate Y in their own zone, followed by teammate Y dekeing through an entire team before scoring while flying through the air, player X gets some credit for what was a complete individual effort by teammate Y. Or similarly a goalie passes the puck to a defenseman, said defenseman begins a passing play with one of his teammates which results in a goal, the goalie gets credit for offence that they had no real contribution to. This just seems fundamentally wrong to me, and as we move forward it seems to be something we can improve on.

A classic example to this is knocking a player for having lots of "secondary assists". Now I have never really liked this argument, as being a Canucks fan I have witnessed enough Sedin Magic to realize that just because passing took place before a shot is taken, it doesn't mean that said passing didn't have a large contribution to the goal being scored. But I do understand the argument, and I agree with the notion that there are currently lots of players who's point totals are drastically inflated, just by passing the puck to a star offensive player and letting them do all the work, its not a knock on them but rather a coincidental aspect of our scoring system which allows quite a large misrepresentation to take place.

So what can we do about it? The first idea that comes to mind is you have a more trained goal judge/referee in house who, with the assist of video replay, determines the players who truly assisted on the goal being scored. This could or could not be capped at 2 players, and could or could not actually require the player to touch the puck, this could make for some interesting debate. Admittedly, this could get complicated, but I believe with set guidelines and instant video review being available it is possible. Hell it would definitely make those droned out scoring announcements a little more interesting.

But simply put with the amount of emphasis that the NHL fan, NHL GM (supposedly), NHL Agent (definitely) and hell everyone else involved in hockey all put on point totals, I think we could do a lot more to ensure that they represent offensive contribution more accurately.


Last edited by Todds Chiropractory: 02-20-2014 at 04:14 PM.
Todds Chiropractory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 04:16 PM
  #2
iLandHer
Registered User
 
iLandHer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,963
vCash: 500
We should give assists to players who screen goalies or make disruptions in the play that allow their teams to score too. I want MOAR assists.

iLandHer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 04:17 PM
  #3
Vokouna Maattata
Save us, Beau!
 
Vokouna Maattata's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,579
vCash: 500
The whole idea seems way too subjective with no real basis. It would be just like officiating with its inconsistency.

Vokouna Maattata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 04:18 PM
  #4
jmart21
MISC!!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: All Over The Place
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,835
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todds Chiropractory View Post
Alright so this is something that has bothered me for some time so I'm looking to start a little bit of a debate around the topic. The main issue being, due to the amount of value put in the amount of points a players scores per year, there is very little control to determine whether a player really "earned" an assist or not. And this can lead to highly inflated point totals of players who really didn't contribute to as much offence as their point totals suggest.

The current system of simply taking on the 2 last players who touched the puck and assuming they had a direct effect on the play building to goal, has worked quite well for many years, as it is incredibly easy and takes no real judgment of any sort. Yet when player X passes the puck to teammate Y in their own zone, followed by teammate Y dekeing through an entire team before scoring while flying through the air, player X gets some credit for what was a complete individual effort by teammate Y. Or similarly a goalie passes the puck to a defenseman, said defenseman begins a passing play with one of his teammates which results in a goal, the goalie gets credit for offence that they had no real contribution to. This just seems fundamentally wrong to me, and as we move forward it seems to be this is something we can improve on.

A classic example to this is knocking a player for having lots of "secondary assists". Now I have never really liked this argument, as being a Canucks fan I have witnessed enough Sedin Magic to realize that just because passing took place before a shot is taken, it doesn't mean that said passing didn't have a large contribution to the goal being scored. But I do understand the argument, and I agree with the notion that there are currently lots of players who's point totals are drastically inflated, just by passing the puck to a star offensive player and letting them do all the work, its not a knock on them but rather a coincidental aspect of our scoring system which allows quite a large misrepresentation to take place.

So what can we do about it? The first idea that comes to mind is you have a more trained goal judge/referee in house who, with the assist of video replay, determines the players who truly assisted on the goal being scored. This could or could not be capped at 2 players, and could or could not actually require the player to touch the puck, this could make for some interesting debate. Admittedly, this could get complicated, but I believe with set guidelines and instant video review being available it is possible. Hell it would definitely make those droned out scoring announcements a little more interesting.

But simply put with the amount of emphasis that the NHL fan, NHL GM (supposedly), NHL Agent (definitely) and hell everyone else involved in hockey all put on point totals, I think we could do a lot more to ensure that they represent offensive contribution more accurately.

You want the assists to be given out on a goal-by-goal basis....based on some person's interpretation of what an assist truly is? Sorry, but that makes it even more of a mess.

An assist is what it is. You can complain all you want that some players don't "earn" them. But you could also say that some players don't earn their goals. Why not review every goal and hand it to the player that "truly deserves it"? No more goals credited for minor tip ins, hell if the puck bounces to you and you have a wide open net you shouldn't get credit right? I mean, you just passed it to an open net..right?

Stats based on personal interpretation are never as good as something that's black/white. Just look at the general feeling towards hits, giveaways and takeaways around the league.

jmart21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 04:18 PM
  #5
Blue Blooded
Registered User
 
Blue Blooded's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Handicap spot
Country: Sweden
Posts: 2,718
vCash: 504
Just remove the secondary assist altogether, it has been proven as being more luck than skill anyway.

Blue Blooded is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 04:19 PM
  #6
Blackhawkswincup
Global Moderator
 
Blackhawkswincup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicagoland
Country: United States
Posts: 100,796
vCash: 340
System is fine the way it is

Don't fix what isn't broken

Blackhawkswincup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 04:22 PM
  #7
Jag68Sid87
Registered User
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 28,041
vCash: 500
No thanks to adding any 'judging' in this beautiful sport. It's really not a big deal, but opening it up to subjectivity will make a mountain out of a molehill.

Jag68Sid87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 04:23 PM
  #8
Todds Chiropractory
Registered User
 
Todds Chiropractory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,107
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmart21 View Post
You want the assists to be given out on a goal-by-goal basis....based on some person's interpretation of what an assist truly is? Sorry, but that makes it even more of a mess.

An assist is what it is. You can complain all you want that some players don't "earn" them. But you could also say that some players don't earn their goals. Why not review every goal and hand it to the player that "truly deserves it"? No more goals credited for minor tip ins, hell if the puck bounces to you and you have a wide open net you shouldn't get credit right? I mean, you just passed it to an open net..right?

Stats based on personal interpretation are never as good as something that's black/white. Just look at the general feeling towards hits, giveaways and takeaways around the league.
I do not agree with this fundamental point. Personally I believe that a lot of the time it is incredibly obvious when a player did nothing to contribute to the goal being scored, and adding this personal interpretation would help eliminate this error in the current system. As I stated in my initial post, I'm not trying to say that this wouldn't be potentially complicated, but there could be a set of rules of things we look for when determining whether a player really contributed or not, and when in doubt you could always err on the side of caution and revert to the current system we have in place, but this would atleast allow for the potential for obvious non-assists to be removed.

On the rest of your post, a goal is a goal is a goal. Not trying to argue that at all.

Todds Chiropractory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 04:25 PM
  #9
Catamo
NHL2com League
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: British Columbia
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,460
vCash: 1171
How about giving an assist to all other skaters on the ice, since its likely they must have contributed in one way or another. I don't think too many goals would ever be scored 3 on 5.

But really, dont fix what ain't broken.

Catamo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 04:31 PM
  #10
Golden_Jet
Registered User
 
Golden_Jet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 423
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todds Chiropractory View Post


So what can we do about it? The first idea that comes to mind is you have a more trained goal judge/referee in house who, with the assist of video replay, determines the players who truly assisted on the goal being scored. This could or could not be capped at 2 players, and could or could not actually require the player to touch the puck, this could make for some interesting debate. Admittedly, this could get complicated, but I believe with set guidelines and instant video review being available it is possible. Hell it would definitely make those droned out scoring announcements a little more interesting.

But simply put with the amount of emphasis that the NHL fan, NHL GM (supposedly), NHL Agent (definitely) and hell everyone else involved in hockey all put on point totals, I think we could do a lot more to ensure that they represent offensive contribution more accurately.
They do this now, every game. Lots of time assists and even goals are changed throughout the game after video review during the game or intermissions.

Golden_Jet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 04:32 PM
  #11
Ducks in a row
Registered User
 
Ducks in a row's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,818
vCash: 500
If a player passes the puck to a teammate and that player scores regardless of how he scored it should be a assist to the passer because without the puck being passed to the goal scorer he would never of had the puck to be able to score.

The way assists are now is fine. Only possible change is only 1 assist per goal but I think it should remain as is.

Ducks in a row is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 04:34 PM
  #12
SmellOfVictory
Registered User
 
SmellOfVictory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,625
vCash: 114
It's an interesting idea in theory, but in practice it would just make offensive stats less reliable. We already have enough issue with the fact that the NHL stats whatevers can't even count shots and hits consistently between rinks; there's just no way I'd trust them to make judgment calls as to whether or not someone was integral to a goal being scored.

And even beyond the inconsistencies, adding subjectivity to raw numbers is generally a bad idea.

SmellOfVictory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 04:42 PM
  #13
djdub
#6cups
 
djdub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Calgary, AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 637
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden_Jet View Post
They do this now, every game. Lots of time assists and even goals are changed throughout the game after video review during the game or intermissions.
I think the OP knows this.

What he is saying, is have them review every goal and see how the play develops. If it was a play where a player did all the individual effort with a pass from his own player in the defensive zone. Make it unassisted.

If a player had a huge individual effort in the offensive zone lost the puck to a defender but somehow forced the defender to make a turn over back to a team mate who goes on to score. Give that player an assist, even though he didn't make an actual pass to his team mate.

A series of rules could be setup to "judge" these assists on which could be enforced by a committee of ~3 scoring judges.

I think it's a good idea

djdub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 04:44 PM
  #14
Golden_Jet
Registered User
 
Golden_Jet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 423
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by djdub View Post
I think the OP knows this.

What he is saying, is have them review every goal and see how the play develops. If it was a play where a player did all the individual effort with a pass from his own player in the defensive zone. Make it unassisted.

If a player had a huge individual effort in the offensive zone lost the puck to a defender but somehow forced the defender to make a turn over back to a team mate who goes on to score. Give that player an assist, even though he didn't make an actual pass to his team mate.

A series of rules could be setup to "judge" these assists on which could be enforced by a committee of ~3 scoring judges.

I think it's a good idea

If in fact your interpretation of the OP is correct it would render the last 100 years of stats useless.

Golden_Jet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 04:46 PM
  #15
Todds Chiropractory
Registered User
 
Todds Chiropractory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,107
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden_Jet View Post
If in fact your interpretation of the OP is correct it would render the last 100 years of stats useless.
He is correct that is what I was getting at. And doing something wrong for a long time isn't a good reason to continue doing it.

Todds Chiropractory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 06:45 PM
  #16
Homegrown Kings
ft. Philly & Lumbus
 
Homegrown Kings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: PNW
Country: United States
Posts: 2,134
vCash: 500
What you've proposed is far too subjective to enforce, though I do like the spirit of it. The current system of points only tells so much of the story on any given play.

Sometimes the tertiary assist might be the most impressive play, which was key for generating the offense. Sometimes a player might screen a goalie, and not touch the puck, but arguably be just as responsible for the goal as he who shot it. Though where do you stop? What about the the guy who makes a great hit that jars the puck loose where it gets picked up by somebody who scores on a breakaway. I just don't know how you can set some clear guidelines that would be easy to put into practice.

Also this would be a radical change of the scoring system that has been more or less untouched for generations. I don't see the current system as flawed enough to warrant such a change, and I don't necessarily think of myself as a traditionalist.

Creative idea, though.

Homegrown Kings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 06:51 PM
  #17
Frank Garrett
Registered User
 
Frank Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Duncan Construction
Posts: 1,267
vCash: 500
Ban assists.

Frank Garrett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 06:59 PM
  #18
Disclose
Registered User
 
Disclose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,171
vCash: 1000
yeah.. no.
you dont like secondary assists, but a player getting a point" could not actually require the player to touch the puck" is even worse.

i guess just keep it at one assist per goal (if theres any).
but i would just keep it the way it is.

Disclose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 07:31 PM
  #19
bobbyt91*
you must quote me :P
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Kitchener
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,208
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todds Chiropractory View Post
Alright so this is something that has bothered me for some time so I'm looking to start a little bit of a debate around the topic. The main issue being, due to the amount of value put in the amount of points a players scores per year, there is very little control to determine whether a player really "earned" an assist or not. And this can lead to highly inflated point totals of players who really didn't contribute to as much offence as their point totals suggest.

The current system of simply taking on the 2 last players who touched the puck and assuming they had a direct effect on the play building to goal, has worked quite well for many years, as it is incredibly easy and takes no real judgment of any sort. Yet when player X passes the puck to teammate Y in their own zone, followed by teammate Y dekeing through an entire team before scoring while flying through the air, player X gets some credit for what was a complete individual effort by teammate Y. Or similarly a goalie passes the puck to a defenseman, said defenseman begins a passing play with one of his teammates which results in a goal, the goalie gets credit for offence that they had no real contribution to. This just seems fundamentally wrong to me, and as we move forward it seems to be something we can improve on.

A classic example to this is knocking a player for having lots of "secondary assists". Now I have never really liked this argument, as being a Canucks fan I have witnessed enough Sedin Magic to realize that just because passing took place before a shot is taken, it doesn't mean that said passing didn't have a large contribution to the goal being scored. But I do understand the argument, and I agree with the notion that there are currently lots of players who's point totals are drastically inflated, just by passing the puck to a star offensive player and letting them do all the work, its not a knock on them but rather a coincidental aspect of our scoring system which allows quite a large misrepresentation to take place.

So what can we do about it? The first idea that comes to mind is you have a more trained goal judge/referee in house who, with the assist of video replay, determines the players who truly assisted on the goal being scored. This could or could not be capped at 2 players, and could or could not actually require the player to touch the puck, this could make for some interesting debate. Admittedly, this could get complicated, but I believe with set guidelines and instant video review being available it is possible. Hell it would definitely make those droned out scoring announcements a little more interesting.

But simply put with the amount of emphasis that the NHL fan, NHL GM (supposedly), NHL Agent (definitely) and hell everyone else involved in hockey all put on point totals, I think we could do a lot more to ensure that they represent offensive contribution more accurately.
What about a situation where the 2 secondary assists are valid and 2 other players also directly contribute to the goal? how to you decide what was more important? situation below

Gardiner makes a long stretch pass to Bozak, Bozak slows up entering the zone allowing JVR to screen the goalie then Bozak now heads up the Left wing while Kessel heads up the right wing causing the goalie and D to have to split their attention 40% Bozak and 60% Kessel then Bozak drops the puck in the slot as Rielly pinches and one times it home.

Ok so by current rules Rielly gets the goal, Bozak 1st assist and Gardiner 2nd assist. But by the new rules how do you pick when Kessel helped by pulling D his way and making the goalie focus on him, JVR helped by standing there lol(screening) then Bozie with the drop pass plus slowing up to start play and Gardiner with the stretch pass. I have seen similar plays to this fairly often with the Leafs and all 5 have had a direct impact on the goal.

bobbyt91* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 07:35 PM
  #20
KingBogo
Admitted Homer
 
KingBogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 4,425
vCash: 1087
I say leave it as it is. Why make something subjective. Sometimes you make a great play and don't get an assist and sometimes you get a lucky one. Over the long term players who contribute the most offensively get the most points.

Making something needlessly subjective just adds a greater possibility of controversy.

KingBogo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 07:42 PM
  #21
Ash35
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 753
vCash: 500
The stats are fine. Usually the top scorers at the end of year are the best offensive players.

Ash35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 07:54 PM
  #22
Pavels Dog
#Fireholland
 
Pavels Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,490
vCash: 500
I have to be honest, that is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. Not only would it be a monumental task to have a referee go through ever scoring play in detail to determine who "assisted" on it, it would also mean different arenas would be higher or lower scoring depending on the scorekeeper(s) in that arena and it would mean a tight scoring race could be determined on the last game of the season because one of those refs determine some dude's net-front presence was worth an assist even if he never touched the puck. And say what you will but a good play in the defensive zone is 100% worth an assist even if he passes to a guy that proceeds to go on a rush and beating 3 players. Starting a good breakout is a key part of a good offense.

The system is fine as it is. The amount of assists a player get without doing much is canceled out by the times he'll get an assist where he does all the work, or the times someone else will score with very little effort. No one racks up 100+ easy points in a year and no one has 100 'difficult' points in a year.

Pavels Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 07:59 PM
  #23
Dick Sledge
The Tactleneck
 
Dick Sledge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Trapped in Kinect 2
Country: United States
Posts: 3,410
vCash: 500
Every player in the NHL has the same opportunity for secondary assists, accidental assists and assists they didn't "earn".

If you're a player who's more involved with the plays you're going to get random assists.

Dick Sledge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 08:07 PM
  #24
Bure All Day
Registered User
 
Bure All Day's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Vancouver Isl.
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,045
vCash: 500
How many times per year do players get rewarded assists in the examples you provided... maybe 20-30 in the entire NHL? That's about 1 extra assist per team in the NHL.... I seriously doubt this is inflating assist totals by very much.

Also, I've seen plays where the 3rd player to touch the puck was just as, if not more instrumental to a goal, and doesn't get credited with anything except a "+". It all evens out.

BTW I love goalie assists, why would you want to remove them

Bure All Day is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-20-2014, 08:08 PM
  #25
massivegoonery
Registered User
 
massivegoonery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chicago
Country: United States
Posts: 11,312
vCash: 500
The big plus with the current system is that we've always used it. You change the system and now the new scores aren't comparable in any way with the old ones.

That said, I would love a purely subjective system.

massivegoonery is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:45 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.