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Old
12-14-2013, 10:29 AM
  #251
swimmer77
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It still boggles my mind that three of the supposed top 3 leaders on this team are at the bottom of the barrel in team plus/minus.

Mike Green and Ovi are each minus 11.

Bruce Laich is minus 9.

I realize it's a stat that doesn't get a whole lot of respect but to me there is just something wrong with that picture.

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Old
12-14-2013, 11:33 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
It still boggles my mind that three of the supposed top 3 leaders on this team are at the bottom of the barrel in team plus/minus.

Mike Green and Ovi are each minus 11.

Bruce Laich is minus 9.

I realize it's a stat that doesn't get a whole lot of respect but to me there is just something wrong with that picture.
what does that prove that +50 didn't? the dump green and laich bandwagon is pretty full. do you want to add ovechkin to that group?

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Old
12-14-2013, 02:38 PM
  #253
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On 2009-10 Caps, everybody had good-to-amazing +/-, including all forward lines, there were no particular patterns except to say that it was offense driven, and the D was basically along for the ride, especially Schultz, who was +50 while only contributing 23 pts! It was visually obvious, too, that he was a good partner for Green, nothing more.

This year, it's a lot clearer what's going on in terms of who's doing what. The top line is terrible at ES, Green is terrible (relative to any defensive partner), and Laich is terrible (relative to any of his partners). All these are confirmed both by +/- and by what the eyes see. The only question as far as causality, assuming that the top line and Green play together a lot, is whether the top line drags Green down, or vice-versa, or if both are equally bad.

So you have to look at partners. You can't really say for example that specifically MJ has been terrible at E/S, because both of his linemates are basically as bad or worse. All you can say is that together, they've been awful. With Green, none of his defensive partners have awful +/-, so clearly he is the problem. Same with Laich, all of his linemates have far better +/-.

It's also not particularly controversial to surmise that guys like Ovi and Green may be far more effective in a Boudreau offense than in the Hunter's defense or Oates's handedness.

Ovi is untouchable for political reasons, so while I think it's a perfectly valid question to ask whether he's the most effective way to spend 9.5M if you're playing "the right way according to Umberger and Don Cherry", it's completely theoretical.

Green, however, is perceived as far less untouchable, so it makes sense that we discuss scenarios where he's replaced.

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Old
12-14-2013, 05:24 PM
  #254
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Top line is awful at puck possession or puck retrieval. Backstrom is amazing along the boards. The problem is he gets no help from the wingers. Ovechkin is a huge guy with amazing hands, he should help along the boards. Instead he just circles behind the play trying to get open. Backstrom inevitability looses the puck because he's outnumbered and the opponent starts the rush the other way.

OV doesn't have Knuble anymore and MoJo sucks along the boards. The result is very little puck possession.

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12-14-2013, 05:58 PM
  #255
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I miss Kozlov's puck possession on the top line. KHL casualty....grr....

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12-14-2013, 06:24 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
I miss Kozlov's puck possession on the top line. KHL casualty....grr....
Well, it wasn't really working with him, either, because they were just too slow overall, as with Knuble.

I miss Zubrus more.. he was the right kind of player to play with Ovi -- strong, fast, hard-working, and with just enough skill to complement a star.

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Old
12-14-2013, 07:06 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by artilector View Post
Well, it wasn't really working with him, either, because they were just too slow overall, as with Knuble.

I miss Zubrus more.. he was the right kind of player to play with Ovi -- strong, fast, hard-working, and with just enough skill to complement a star.
Wrong again. The player we miss is Chris Clark.

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12-14-2013, 07:15 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by PSUCapsFan View Post
Top line is awful at puck possession or puck retrieval. Backstrom is amazing along the boards. The problem is he gets no help from the wingers. Ovechkin is a huge guy with amazing hands, he should help along the boards. Instead he just circles behind the play trying to get open. Backstrom inevitability looses the puck because he's outnumbered and the opponent starts the rush the other way.

OV doesn't have Knuble anymore and MoJo sucks along the boards. The result is very little puck possession.
Uhh no the entire team ignores Ovechkin unless he is open. Watch the breakout, no one looks to pass to Ovechkin in the defensive end. They avoid even looking at him.

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Old
12-14-2013, 07:48 PM
  #259
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Carry on.


Last edited by LetsGoBears: 12-14-2013 at 08:29 PM.
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Old
12-14-2013, 09:25 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
Wrong again. The player we miss is Chris Clark.
Does he still send 50% of his paycheck to Ovi for Xmas?

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Old
12-15-2013, 12:53 AM
  #261
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Uhh no the entire team ignores Ovechkin unless he is open. Watch the breakout, no one looks to pass to Ovechkin in the defensive end. They avoid even looking at him.
That's just so blatantly false... what the hell are you watching?

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Old
12-15-2013, 07:42 AM
  #262
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I've always thought the most important strengths for the ideal Ovechkin opposite wing would be puck retrieval, puck protection, and net presence. Someone who can go and win the board battle to dig the puck out of the corners, protect it while in traffic to maintain possession, and crash the net to drag defenders away from Ovie and pounce on rebounds he creates. That's why Clark and Knuble worked so well on his line despite modest skill. Bonus points for a line mate that can stick handle through traffic and create off the wall (two things both Kozlov and Semin excelled at)

Some players around the league that seem perfect fits would be Parise, Franzen, Iginla, Doan, & Alfredsson of a few years ago, Zetterberg, Hossa, Callahan and Oshie. Ladd and Moulsen strike me as guys that might be attainable and also fit the profile, though their skill level is generally lower than the others.

The strengths of that type of player match up almost perfectly with Johansson's weaknesses, which is why he's an abysmal fit on that line.

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12-15-2013, 08:54 AM
  #263
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abysmal would be rico fata. I'd rather Johansson play center. Johansson and Clark are a good examination. Clark's speed spread the ice and opened up space for backstrom and ovechkin to work. Clark was better at scoring near the net which Johansson doesn't seemt to be but Johansson is a high level playmaker and passer which Clark was not.

Knuble was great at the board battle and great in front of the net. Johansson wins as many pucks with pure speed, though, as Knuble won in a physical fight in the corner for the puck. I think too many people dismiss that when its an important factor.

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Old
12-15-2013, 08:59 AM
  #264
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I'm as big a Johansson supporter as there is on here, but you're out to lunch on his abilities. 9 ES assists in 32 games does not make a high level playmaker. And he doesn't win nearly as many pucks with pure speed as Knuble did with physicality on the boards. Your conjuring things up in your head. He might win races to pucks, but often quickly loses possession. He doesn't maintain the possession, which is all that matters.

For the 80th time, we're talking about even strength, and not the power play.

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Old
12-15-2013, 09:14 AM
  #265
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well...then the first line lw should be clear. its erat

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Old
12-15-2013, 09:33 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
well...then the first line lw should be clear. its erat
Didn't Erat shutdown the first line down for a few games. Production stopped with him on the first line. I would like to give it another shot. Its better long term for the team if Mojo makes it as a center.

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12-15-2013, 09:39 AM
  #267
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well...then the first line lw should be clear. its erat
Erat is a right wing. If you're more interested in the Erat from Nashville vs the Washington version at least.

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Old
12-15-2013, 10:04 AM
  #268
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Erat is a right wing. If you're more interested in the Erat from Nashville vs the Washington version at least.
Ov-Backs-Erat

Or Oates too smart for that, is he?

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Old
12-15-2013, 10:23 AM
  #269
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I would love to see fehr go on the first line, need a tough guy that will charge the net, not like mojo, that is only pass first and makes some stupid mistakes with the puck. This Plus minus thing is really over blown. Look who ovi is playing with, green has been maybe one of the worse Dmen in the nhl this season, mojo and backstrom have been turning over the puck alot this season.

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Old
12-16-2013, 07:41 AM
  #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
I miss Kozlov's puck possession on the top line. KHL casualty....grr....
Wait...you mean the Russian Mario Lemieux?? The same guy who loafed around thru most every hockey game and came up small in the playoffs time after time?

You look up underachiever in the dictionary and there will be an entry with his name all over it.

I don't miss him one bit.

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Old
12-16-2013, 07:52 AM
  #271
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A winger for the top line should come from the outside. Unfortunately, GMGM is a coward who would never go for a big trade, so here were are. Fehr-Erat-Laich-MJ-Chimera-letstryVolpatti-howaboutGreen-Fehr-Erat...

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Old
12-16-2013, 09:39 AM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Zorak View Post
A winger for the top line should come from the outside. Unfortunately, GMGM is a coward who would never go for a big trade, so here were are. Fehr-Erat-Laich-MJ-Chimera-letstryVolpatti-howaboutGreen-Fehr-Erat...
It really wouldn't even need to be a big trade. This team needs much more help on the defense to pay premium price for top-line winger. What i would like to see is someone who could fill the similar role as Knuble did in that line. Drive the net and score the tap-ins you get.

Moulson would be great addition to that line if he isn't asking for ridiculous money in his next contract. Other players i could see filling that role are Glencross, Michalek (UFA), or Kopecky.

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Old
12-16-2013, 10:37 AM
  #273
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It really wouldn't even need to be a big trade. This team needs much more help on the defense to pay premium price for top-line winger. What i would like to see is someone who could fill the similar role as Knuble did in that line. Drive the net and score the tap-ins you get.
They need the board work more than the scoring, but Joel Ward is the obvious choice.

Ovechkin - Backstrom - Ward

Fehr could maybe work too.

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Old
12-16-2013, 10:54 AM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Liberati0n View Post
They need the board work more than the scoring, but Joel Ward is the obvious choice.

Ovechkin - Backstrom - Ward

Fehr could maybe work too.
True. Glencross and Kopecky would both bring that too. Moulson and Michalek not so much.

I was focusing on LW's since as long as Oates is here Ward won't happen but that could work pretty well.

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Old
12-16-2013, 11:11 AM
  #275
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I don't think Moulson has retrieved a single puck in his life.

Perron would have been ideal. Johansson + 3rd would have done it. But nooooo, gotta keep the ballerina.

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