HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

what if Orr was a centre?

View Poll Results: how many points
less than 99 pts 2 6.67%
100-129 3 10.00%
130-159 9 30.00%
160-189 10 33.33%
190-215 6 20.00%
215+ 0 0%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-03-2013, 11:44 AM
  #1
amnesiac
Space Oddity
 
amnesiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,383
vCash: 500
what if Orr was a centre?

I know this an almost impossible question to answer, but about how many goals/points do you think Orr couldve put up in his prime/era with average/good linemates playing at centre?

amnesiac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 11:49 AM
  #2
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,072
vCash: 500
Less

Quote:
Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
I know this an almost impossible question to answer, but about how many goals/points do you think Orr couldve put up in his prime/era with average/good linemates playing at centre?

Less than he did playing as a defenseman because he would lose about 1/3 of his ice time. This would make it easier to dedicate a checking center and line to him. Finally he would be limited in his ability to use his speed and mobility to advantage like he could as a defenseman.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 11:54 AM
  #3
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 37,522
vCash: 500
Orr is probably one of the only players in history who may actually have been advantaged in his point production by playing defense instead of forward. His puck rushing ability was such a unique weapon, and would have been harder to leverage if he had played up.

On the other hand, the only player in the league who had a higher PPG than Orr was Esposito, and it's hard to imagine Esposito outscoring Center-Orr. So perhaps he'd get that little boost to the top of the chart.

tarheelhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 12:09 PM
  #4
Psycho Papa Joe
Porkchop Hoser
 
Psycho Papa Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cesspool, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
I'm guessing he'd top Esposito's 154pts, so I put him in the 160-189 pt category. I'm assuming here, they convert Espo to a winger.

Psycho Papa Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 12:11 PM
  #5
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,184
vCash: 500
I said 130-159. We saw him hit that number twice in his career as it was. It is true he had the advantage of being able to use his speed from the back end and rush, but with his skating ability I would believe that the system would revolve around getting Orr the puck as much as possible. There would be plenty of times when there would be a set play to let him take it from behind the net and go coast to coast. We saw Perreault and Lafleur use their speed to their advantage on rushes. If we saw Perreault as a forward with those lovely rushes I think Orr would do just fine. His ice time is cut back, but he is involved in the play even more and has less responsibliity on defense.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 12:29 PM
  #6
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,072
vCash: 500
Small Boston Garden Rink

As a center Bobby Orr would have been further limited by the small Boston Garden rink. Furthermore the assumption of getting the puck to Bobby Orr or letting him comeback and rush the puck assumes that a 2-3 attck would work. Standard is a 3-2.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 12:40 PM
  #7
feffan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Malmö
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,116
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I said 130-159. We saw him hit that number twice in his career as it was. It is true he had the advantage of being able to use his speed from the back end and rush, but with his skating ability I would believe that the system would revolve around getting Orr the puck as much as possible. There would be plenty of times when there would be a set play to let him take it from behind the net and go coast to coast. We saw Perreault and Lafleur use their speed to their advantage on rushes. If we saw Perreault as a forward with those lovely rushes I think Orr would do just fine. His ice time is cut back, but he is involved in the play even more and has less responsibliity on defense.
Good post. Would be interesting to see what it would have done to the game if Orr kind of revolutionised the centre position instead of the defence position. The only thing I have too add is that I think he would top Espesitos 152 by a bit, so going with 160+.

feffan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 12:54 PM
  #8
robertguess2013
Registered User
 
robertguess2013's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New Port Richey Fl
Country: United States
Posts: 7,199
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to robertguess2013 Send a message via MSN to robertguess2013 Send a message via Yahoo to robertguess2013
Well depends when he played.

I honestly think now ORR could score the most points and would rival gretsky numbers as a center.

The one thing about orr that everyone I have ever talked to about him is that he could skate circles around anyone playing at his time and to those old guys they still say he would skate better than anyone in todays game.

I have to take a guy watching hockey for about 60 years as having some knowledge and not just being boston fans this is from those all over who saw him.

So if he could have gotten surgeries and fixed his knees? Wow sky is limit.

I have only seen some old video and it was like he was toying with everyone else.

He was bigger more physical than anyone at his time or he played that way and yep know is 5'11 like 200 but didnt play like that size I would compare to lemieux's physical play with gretskys speed and agility. Amazing the post that I have seen most often describing bobby orr was that he was the perfect hockey specimen.

Superman on skates would seem to me to do pretty good

robertguess2013 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 12:56 PM
  #9
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 26,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
As a center Bobby Orr would have been further limited by the small Boston Garden rink. Furthermore the assumption of getting the puck to Bobby Orr or letting him comeback and rush the puck assumes that a 2-3 attck would work. Standard is a 3-2.
He simply wouldnt have been as effective. He saw the ice, the entire surface from his perch on the blueline & back deep. Didnt think like a Centre, thought like a Rover & played it that way. Total hybrid. He'd have made for one Hell of a Center, no question about it, but as a Defenceman, beyond excellent. There are innumerable advantages to playing offensively as a Defenceman. You have more time & space.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 01:02 PM
  #10
Beau Knows
Captain Canada
 
Beau Knows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,095
vCash: 500
I agree with most here, I'm not sure it would help his yearly point totals much, if at all. He would get less ice-time, less touches and would have less opportunities to build up speed through the defensive zone and neutral zone. His skating was so good that it didn't really matter that he had to start in his own zone with the puck. Although this may have saved his knees by not skating quite as fast into the blueline and given him higher career totals.

Beau Knows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 01:15 PM
  #11
brianscot
Registered User
 
brianscot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Halifax, NS
Posts: 1,364
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
As a center Bobby Orr would have been further limited by the small Boston Garden rink. Furthermore the assumption of getting the puck to Bobby Orr or letting him comeback and rush the puck assumes that a 2-3 attck would work. Standard is a 3-2.
Do you think that the small Boston Garden rink was that much of a disadvantage? Yes, it permitted even more clutch and grab, but Boston always had a great forechecking advantage at home due to getting upon the defensemen so much faster.

Yes, Orr would have had less overall ice time, but I wonder what his powerplay stats would be playing up front?

brianscot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 01:18 PM
  #12
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 16,511
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
He simply wouldnt have been as effective. He saw the ice, the entire surface from his perch on the blueline & back deep. Didnt think like a Centre, thought like a Rover & played it that way. Total hybrid. He'd have made for one Hell of a Center, no question about it, but as a Defenceman, beyond excellent. There are innumerable advantages to playing offensively as a Defenceman. You have more time & space.
True dat. When you start skating from the back end towards opposite net you have a different kind of view of the ice than if you start from center-ice. It also sometimes seemed to me that Orr wanted to carry the puck and skate from the back. It seemed as if he was accelerating the whole time, gathering some speed before entering the offensive zone. He probably wouldn't have been as fast entering the enemy territory if he didn't take his time getting on the top speed.

TAnnala is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 01:26 PM
  #13
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,184
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by feffan View Post
Good post. Would be interesting to see what it would have done to the game if Orr kind of revolutionised the centre position instead of the defence position. The only thing I have too add is that I think he would top Espesitos 152 by a bit, so going with 160+.
The only thing is if Orr is at centre, he doesn't have Esposito either, and he doesn't have a version of himself on the blueline. That may not make a whole lot of difference, but it is worth noting.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 01:31 PM
  #14
robertguess2013
Registered User
 
robertguess2013's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New Port Richey Fl
Country: United States
Posts: 7,199
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to robertguess2013 Send a message via MSN to robertguess2013 Send a message via Yahoo to robertguess2013
He played center in preseason of rookie year by the way.

robertguess2013 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 01:59 PM
  #15
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,072
vCash: 500
Small Rink

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianscot View Post
Do you think that the small Boston Garden rink was that much of a disadvantage? Yes, it permitted even more clutch and grab, but Boston always had a great forechecking advantage at home due to getting upon the defensemen so much faster.

Yes, Orr would have had less overall ice time, but I wonder what his powerplay stats would be playing up front?
The forechecking advantage did not help an excellent center like Milt Schmidt generate point totals:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...schmimi01.html

The dump and chase is winger focused. LW/RW crashing the weaker defenseman in the corner. This nullifies much of the fast puck carrying centers advantages.

Also the team plays a different game on the road than at home if there is a size differential - smaller home rink. Impacts forward lines more than defensemen.

PP stats playing up front would be weaker since he would not have Bobby Orr, the defenseman, running the PP from the point.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 02:02 PM
  #16
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
 
Fred Taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,145
vCash: 500
I think he would get 160+.

Fred Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 02:07 PM
  #17
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 26,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertguess2013 View Post
He played center in preseason of rookie year by the way.
Yes he did indeed. Ted Green as well skated up to him at his first Training Camp in 66 and said "Kid? I dont know what their paying you but it isnt enough". Wore 27, his junior number before switching to 4. Hero as a junior was Terry Harper. Classic stay at home Defenceman noted for playing it rough....

"Harper Hat Trick"? 3 Goals over the course of an entire season.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 03:52 PM
  #18
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,146
vCash: 931
Does not defensemen on average, or at least the top guys, score just shy of two thirds of what the best forwards do? That if applicable to Orr, means that he would score what, 200? Of course he's an outlier, but would that not mean that he actually could surpass the average? But becouse of his playing style perhaps his actual totals more should be seen as 200 for a forward. Would not be surprised if a talent like him could find a way though.

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 05:12 PM
  #19
LeBlondeDemon10
BlindLemon Haystacks
 
LeBlondeDemon10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,175
vCash: 500
The time was ripe for a revolution to occur at the defense position. Orr would still put up good numbers as a center, but as others have pointed out, he wouldn't have himself on defense feeding him, he'd have far less ice time and he would have to deal with smaller confines to work in. He's still a HOFer and maybe has a longer career.

LeBlondeDemon10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 06:26 PM
  #20
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 26,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
The time was ripe for a revolution to occur at the defense position.
Oh ya. The evolution of the Defencemans role, carrying the puck actually jumping in with the rush then leading it had been building, simmering for 3 decades at least before Orr came along & put it on full boil. Shore, Harvey, Horton, Brewer, bunch of em extemely aggressive in that regard. You can actually trace it back to pre-NHA days. Long train coming but it was coming none the less.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 07:58 PM
  #21
LeBlondeDemon10
BlindLemon Haystacks
 
LeBlondeDemon10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,175
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Oh ya. The evolution of the Defencemans role, carrying the puck actually jumping in with the rush then leading it had been building, simmering for 3 decades at least before Orr came along & put it on full boil. Shore, Harvey, Horton, Brewer, bunch of em extemely aggressive in that regard. You can actually trace it back to pre-NHA days. Long train coming but it was coming none the less.
Interesting how it was never really approved on a larger scale until the decade of revolutions came along - the 60's. Hippies, rock and roll, Curt Flood, the civil rights movement, anti-war rally's all challenging the limits and then along comes Orr and changes hockey. Not a coincidence in a sport laden with old-fashioned values, stuffed shirts and hell-bent against change.

LeBlondeDemon10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 08:38 PM
  #22
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 26,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Interesting how it was never really approved on a larger scale until the decade of revolutions came along - the 60's. Hippies, rock and roll, Curt Flood, the civil rights movement, anti-war rally's all challenging the limits and then along comes Orr and changes hockey. Not a coincidence in a sport laden with old-fashioned values, stuffed shirts and hell-bent against change.
In Toronto, the most successful franchise of the 60's all of these guys pretty much had come up through Saint Mikes & the Marlies, supported by some Vets like Olmstead, but still, rancour, biting at Imlachs bit, the poster boy for that being Carl Brewer. Frank Mahovlich as well. Sensitive. Very gracious individual.... None of these guys would say **** if their mouths were full of it. Smythe & his military rules, and if that didnt bend the bough of self will, lay a Catholic guilt trip on the miscreant. "Selfish. What of your team mates? The Team". You complied or you were buried. The Agnostic Conn Smythe quoting scripture over your hockey corpse.

but back to Brewer: absolutely despised the "Lock" system of play Imlach demanded. Natural rushing Defenceman a good 15yrs ahead of his time, absolutely in love with the European, Russian, International style of play. Rebel with a cause.... a good decade earlier Tim Horton, same thing absent Brewers attitude and considerably more powerful, Rushing Defenceman. Laid out by a wicked (and totally clean) Bill Gadsby check that busted his jaw & leg, never the same again. Lost that half step.

Horton couldve potentially been Bobby Orr circa early 50's. Faster than Doug Harvey, a lot stronger. Brewer would be fined by Imlach if he carried the puck past the Center Ice Red Line, $50 first time, $100 the second time & so on. Can you imagine Orr, being Drafted by the Leafs? Imlach not getting fired in 69? Poor Bobby there wouldve been another Horton or Brewer. Imlach was no Horse Whisperer, he'd have broken that Mustang or died trying the old Bastid. As a player myself back in the latter years of all of that, the Waxers & Marlies being the end all if you were seriously talented & on your way, ya, I rebelled. Wasnt the first nor the last. Literally dozens upon dozens of us going well back, 1930's back, real problem with Smythe, general philosophy on the game, people, as in how to deal with them. Rebels been around lot longer than just the late 60's & 70's LBD. Make the likes of me seem completely innocuous, tame and timid in comparison.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 08:59 PM
  #23
Mike Farkas
Hockey's Future Staff
Grace Personified
 
Mike Farkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,692
vCash: 500
I always take my best player/skater/thinker and move him back to defense on whatever team I coach. Your best player needs to play defense, more control over the game, more room to use his skating ability, gets see the play develop and create that development.

Orr, in my estimation, probably scores less points at center because you aren't utilizing his talents well enough. High scoring d-men wouldn't just score more points because they're playing forward, that's not how it works. It depends on the strengths of the player and why he is effective at producing from the back line.

Orr was just superhuman, so he could do anything at any position. But he would not benefit from being stuffed into a forward position, in my opinion. Doesn't make sense.

Mike Farkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 09:30 PM
  #24
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 26,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Doesn't make sense.
In retrospect no, certainly doesnt. Alien concept. He did play Left Wing until the age of 10 however his then Coach in Parry Sound Bucko McDonald converted him to Defence who Orr credits with teaching him all he knew about the game....


Last edited by Killion: 09-04-2013 at 10:25 AM.
Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 05:01 AM
  #25
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,146
vCash: 931
Why does people keep bringing up less ice time if he had been a forward? This is after all the case for all forwards, and all defensemen. The forwards still score more.
Furthermore, if Steve Yzerman could score 155 points flying through the middle of the ice, then Bobby Orr could score more than that, regardless of if he played in the seventies or the eighties.

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:55 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.