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Let's talk about movies (and TV shows)... The Sequel!!

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Old
10-01-2013, 09:12 AM
  #501
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
As a high school teacher , if he lived in Ontario he would probably have a near 6 figure salary with 300 sick days banked, he could have gone onto a long term health leave making an indexed salary off a group benefits plan, or retired to an indexed pension, cashing in 6 months salary and double dipping as a supply teacher while managing tutoring assignments for $75/hr cash.

More lucrative than meth here in Ontari-ari-ari- owe.
That's ridiculous!

That show would've been called "Breaking Bored".

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10-01-2013, 10:05 AM
  #502
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That's ridiculous!

That show would've been called "Breaking Bored".
We call it "Breaking like Greece".

I have a friend who 3 years ago did exactly what I described. He hit his age+service= 85 eligible retirement age (in Ontario teachers need a calculator to add numbers unless those numbers add up to 85 in which they can do the math in a millisecond), retired at 95K salary and cashed in 6 months of banked sick day salary. He gets a full defined benefits pension indexed for inflation for life, with 100 percent medical coverage. He then does 95 days of supply teaching annually and then charges $75/hr for after hours tutoring which, as a math teacher, there is no shortage of students lining up for. Tutoring is cash.

He owns a million dollar+ home in the burbs which is not uncommon in the profession these days.

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10-01-2013, 12:44 PM
  #503
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I watched Senna last night for the first time. I am a casual motorsport fan, and I was vaguely aware of the politics and reputation for some drivers at the time of Senna's run.

But the douch-baggery of Alain Prost and Jean-Marie Balestre in that day seems absolutely astounding. Some of those guys drove multimillion dollar machines like go-karts.

I remember when Schumacher had tried to take out Villeneuve to preserve his one point standing lead, and it failed. I lost respect for Schumacher that day. I had forgotten that Prost had turned into teammate Senna the same way. And then lobbying to get his own teammate DQ'd, holy **** what an idiot.

I understand the competitive dynamics of "teammates" in F1 , but how can a person so openly be an a-hole.
Did you watch Senna because of the bill simmons article ? ive been meaning to

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10-01-2013, 01:05 PM
  #504
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Did you watch Senna because of the bill simmons article ? ive been meaning to
I think I am going to go out and see Rush, just whetting my appetite for it.

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10-01-2013, 02:42 PM
  #505
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Argue all you want, his motives are imbedded in every move he makes. Even as far as the lengths he will go to get his earned money to his family, even after it's clear that his double life is over, and even after his family tells him they have no more use for him (why don't you just die!) . The 737 episode was obvious and put things into context.
If 737K is all he really wants because it secures his family, and that's all he really wants to do, bring financial security to his family, then why doesn't he stop?
Why does he keep going? Because he's forced? No, he's never really forced. Every single decision he makes further pushes him away from his family. But you can think he is in a corner where he lacks choices, I disagree.

I think if he really cared for his family, lots of things would have went differently.
Deep down he does it for himself, and he says so himself at the end.
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I will put this another way in the form of a question, if Walt was a financially secure teacher does the story even have a beginning?
Well that depends, because you seem to think financial security is the sole reason he starts this. I disagree with that notion.
I think the show is more about him, not his family. It's more about how he feels like a huge disappointment in life, not really about securing cash for his family.
So if there's another show where he has enough money, but still has the same feelings of depressions and disappointments, then yes, I absolutely think he does the same thing.

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You say you can't think of anybody who could possibly hook up in the meth game and be dedicated to their family, that's a big judgement on your part. I would argue that people who find themselves dying of cancer rarely get into the meth game for thrills and adrenaline. That's what skydiving and Bucket -Lists are for.

In any case I think it's up to the viewer to decide the value of Walt's life and to judge him on his motives. I don't see him as a psychopath.
I think it's a combination of every thing, but unlike what the audience was lead to believe, I think securing money for his family is a small reason, not the main one.

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Geez, if he'd been Canadian, the doctor would've told him he had cancer and that his free Medicare treatment starts next week. The end.
Completely disagree. Why does Gale do it? As I said, WW is the same as GB, except without the family.

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Good-guy Walt had no chance to thrive, and there was no show if he had. But good-guy Walt still hung on, even while Heisenberg's massive ego turned him into a raging egomaniac in the throes of total denial. I don't consider pride and ego to be 'evil', though the actions done in their names often are. Walt did some seriously evil stuff, but I maintain it's too easy to call him 'evil'. That simple description ignores all the conflict that fuelled Walter White through five seasons. If we acknowledge Walt's evil side, we also have to acknowledge his regret, his multiple attempts to save Jesse, his desperate stab at saving Hank, his final gambit to provide for his son, etc. Walt was that human side as much as he was his evil side. Anyone who doesn't get that has missed the great depth of this character and has, I think, missed the real point of this great series. There's nothing more interesting than a flawed character struggling with their flaws. Walt's flaws were huge and his struggle epic. That can only happen when the opposing sides of good and bad are balanced. If Walt was simply 'evil', there would have been no struggle, no battle, no drama, no interest.
Even Vince Gilligan says WW is evil, but what does the creator know I guess..

WW views Jesse has a family member. He cares about his family. Again, caring for your family does not remove you from being an evil controlling and manipulative A-hole.
Who the F- let's the gf of your ''friend'' (that he views as a type of son) suffocate on her own vomits in bed while he sleeps?? Only to let him wake up next to her dead. All this for what? So he can keep selling with him? Ya, so-not-evil.

Who the F- chokes someone with a bike lock on a pole?..So-not-Evil.
Who the F- poisons a kid, again, only to manipulate this person he's supposed to care about. So-not-Evil.
Who the F- forces his under-aged and disabled kid to drink tequila shots just because he has an ego battle with his brother in law? So-not-Evil.
Who the F- just terrorizes his wife? So-not-Evil. (Oh yea, I forget, Skylar is the ***** because she tried keep herself and kids away from their murdering drug dealing good father. Sure, that totally makes sense).

I mean seriously, there's so many instances of Walt just be this evil manipulative man. But you place more importance on the family man. I think you totally got fooled by WW.

I mean, we can all have different opinions, but we do get some perspective at the end. WW admits that he's done it for himself all along. That it wasn't just for his family, that this was just an excuse. And you even have Vince Gilligan that say he's evil.
I think we can argue just what drives him to start cooking. I think it's a combination of things, with family being near the bottom. But I don't think it's debatable whether or not WW is evil. He is.

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10-01-2013, 03:59 PM
  #506
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Anyway you guys can spoil the whole series in another thread? I come here to talk about movies and the whole show is being discussed. Cmon guys, create a breaking bad spoiler edition thread if you're going to do this.

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10-01-2013, 09:16 PM
  #507
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Or they can just use spoiler font. It is not hard.

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10-01-2013, 09:16 PM
  #508
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Has anyone seen Runner Runner?

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10-02-2013, 09:37 AM
  #509
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Completely disagree. Why does Gale do it? As I said, WW is the same as GB, except without the family.

Even Vince Gilligan says WW is evil, but what does the creator know I guess..

WW views Jesse has a family member. He cares about his family. Again, caring for your family does not remove you from being an evil controlling and manipulative A-hole.
Who the F- let's the gf of your ''friend'' (that he views as a type of son) suffocate on her own vomits in bed while he sleeps?? Only to let him wake up next to her dead. All this for what? So he can keep selling with him? Ya, so-not-evil.

Who the F- chokes someone with a bike lock on a pole?..So-not-Evil.
Who the F- poisons a kid, again, only to manipulate this person he's supposed to care about. So-not-Evil.
Who the F- forces his under-aged and disabled kid to drink tequila shots just because he has an ego battle with his brother in law? So-not-Evil.
Who the F- just terrorizes his wife? So-not-Evil. (Oh yea, I forget, Skylar is the ***** because she tried keep herself and kids away from their murdering drug dealing good father. Sure, that totally makes sense).

I mean seriously, there's so many instances of Walt just be this evil manipulative man. But you place more importance on the family man. I think you totally got fooled by WW.

I mean, we can all have different opinions, but we do get some perspective at the end. WW admits that he's done it for himself all along. That it wasn't just for his family, that this was just an excuse. And you even have Vince Gilligan that say he's evil.
I think we can argue just what drives him to start cooking. I think it's a combination of things, with family being near the bottom. But I don't think it's debatable whether or not WW is evil. He is.
Sorry, this isn't convincing.

Reducing a character as nuanced as Walter White to a few bullet points doesn't make any case. I can just as easily come up with a different list:

SPOILERS:
Who saves Jesse from the first dealers in episode-one? Evil?
Who saves Jesse from Gus's dealers by running over them? Evil?
Who refuses to work for Gus without Jesse, once again saving him? Evil?
Who leaves a bag of money at Jesse's house, even after Jesse said he was through? Evil?
Who offers his entire fortune in exchange for Hank's life? Evil?
Who ends up providing financial security for his son and deflecting blame from his wife? Evil?
Who saves Jesse's life at the end? Evil?


I'll repeat -- I am NOT making the case that Walt was a nice guy. He suffers from a raging ego and a huge chip on his shoulder, and he's spent the better part of five seasons desperately rationalizing his destructive actions. He has certainly done many evil things, but as a person he's way, way more layered than 'evil'. Yes, evil is part of him, but so is the struggling good guy and the devoted family man. Without his good and bad sides there is no conflict, no drama, no depth and no interest in Walter White the character. Geez - the entire show is based on his good and evil side battling each other.

Ask yourself this: Was it 'in-character' for Walt to kill people? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to repeatedly save Jesse? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to build a meth empire? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to try protecting Hank from Gus and then the Nazis? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to refuse to walk away from his empire? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to try to walk away from his empire?

The answer is "Yes" to all those wildly-opposing motives. It was totally in character for Walt to be either good or evil because that's who he was. We didn't know which Walt would show up each episode, but both made total sense. It made total sense to watch Walt killing Mike and planning a hit on Mike's guys because, yes, Walt became an evil SOB. But it made total sense to watch Walt save Jesse and Hank, and desperately try to send his son money, because, yes, Walt's also hangin' onto his good side.

Walter White committing evil was as much in-character as Walter White saving someone from evil, because they were the same conflicted, regretful, unhappy, lonely person. If you've missed those parts of Walter White and simply see 'evil', then you've spent five seasons watching a cartoon.

Finally, as to Vince Gilligan saying Walt was evil, I addressed this in another post. Good characters go beyond simple definitions, even those of their creators. If VG wanted a purely evil character, he wouldn't have wrapped up the final episode with so much redemption.

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10-02-2013, 09:43 AM
  #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Sorry, this isn't convincing.

Reducing a character as nuanced as Walter White to a few bullet points doesn't make any case. I can just as easily come up with a different list:

SPOILERS:
Who saves Jesse from the first dealers in episode-one? Evil?
Who saves Jesse from Gus's dealers by running over them? Evil?
Who refuses to work for Gus without Jesse, once again saving him? Evil?
Who leaves a bag of money at Jesse's house, even after Jesse said he was through? Evil?
Who offers his entire fortune in exchange for Hank's life? Evil?
Who ends up providing financial security for his son and deflecting blame from his wife? Evil?
Who saves Jesse's life at the end? Evil?


I'll repeat -- I am NOT making the case that Walt was a nice guy. He suffers from a raging ego and a huge chip on his shoulder, and he's spent the better part of five seasons desperately rationalizing his destructive actions. He has certainly done many evil things, but as a person he's way, way more layered than 'evil'. Yes, evil is part of him, but so is the struggling good guy and the devoted family man. Without his good and bad sides there is no conflict, no drama, no depth and no interest in Walter White the character. Geez - the entire show is based on his good and evil side battling each other.

Ask yourself this: Was it 'in-character' for Walt to kill people? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to repeatedly save Jesse? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to build a meth empire? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to try protecting Hank from Gus and then the Nazis? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to refuse to walk away from his empire? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to try to walk away from his empire?

The answer is "Yes" to all those wildly-opposing motives. It was totally in character for Walt to be either good or evil because that's who he was. We didn't know which Walt would show up each episode, but both made total sense. It made total sense to watch Walt killing Mike and planning a hit on Mike's guys because, yes, Walt became an evil SOB. But it made total sense to watch Walt save Jesse and Hank, and desperately try to send his son money, because, yes, Walt's also hangin' onto his good side.

Walter White committing evil was as much in-character as Walter White saving someone from evil, because they were the same conflicted, regretful, unhappy, lonely person. If you've missed those parts of Walter White and simply see 'evil', then you've spent five seasons watching a cartoon.

Finally, as to Vince Gilligan saying Walt was evil, I addressed this in another post. Good characters go beyond simple definitions, even those of their creators. If VG wanted a purely evil character, he wouldn't have wrapped up the final episode with so much redemption.
Its as simple as that, well said Lshap great post

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10-02-2013, 10:42 AM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Sorry, this isn't convincing.

Reducing a character as nuanced as Walter White to a few bullet points doesn't make any case. I can just as easily come up with a different list:

SPOILERS:
Who saves Jesse from the first dealers in episode-one? Evil?
Who saves Jesse from Gus's dealers by running over them? Evil?
Who refuses to work for Gus without Jesse, once again saving him? Evil?
Who leaves a bag of money at Jesse's house, even after Jesse said he was through? Evil?
Who offers his entire fortune in exchange for Hank's life? Evil?
Who ends up providing financial security for his son and deflecting blame from his wife? Evil?
Who saves Jesse's life at the end? Evil?


I'll repeat -- I am NOT making the case that Walt was a nice guy. He suffers from a raging ego and a huge chip on his shoulder, and he's spent the better part of five seasons desperately rationalizing his destructive actions. He has certainly done many evil things, but as a person he's way, way more layered than 'evil'. Yes, evil is part of him, but so is the struggling good guy and the devoted family man. Without his good and bad sides there is no conflict, no drama, no depth and no interest in Walter White the character. Geez - the entire show is based on his good and evil side battling each other.

Ask yourself this: Was it 'in-character' for Walt to kill people? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to repeatedly save Jesse? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to build a meth empire? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to try protecting Hank from Gus and then the Nazis? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to refuse to walk away from his empire? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to try to walk away from his empire?

The answer is "Yes" to all those wildly-opposing motives. It was totally in character for Walt to be either good or evil because that's who he was. We didn't know which Walt would show up each episode, but both made total sense. It made total sense to watch Walt killing Mike and planning a hit on Mike's guys because, yes, Walt became an evil SOB. But it made total sense to watch Walt save Jesse and Hank, and desperately try to send his son money, because, yes, Walt's also hangin' onto his good side.

Walter White committing evil was as much in-character as Walter White saving someone from evil, because they were the same conflicted, regretful, unhappy, lonely person. If you've missed those parts of Walter White and simply see 'evil', then you've spent five seasons watching a cartoon.

Finally, as to Vince Gilligan saying Walt was evil, I addressed this in another post. Good characters go beyond simple definitions, even those of their creators. If VG wanted a purely evil character, he wouldn't have wrapped up the final episode with so much redemption.
Well said!

I am not sure why this is so hard for some to understand?

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10-02-2013, 11:24 AM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Sorry, this isn't convincing.

Reducing a character as nuanced as Walter White to a few bullet points doesn't make any case. I can just as easily come up with a different list:

SPOILERS:
Who saves Jesse from the first dealers in episode-one? Evil?
Who saves Jesse from Gus's dealers by running over them? Evil?
Who refuses to work for Gus without Jesse, once again saving him? Evil?
Who leaves a bag of money at Jesse's house, even after Jesse said he was through? Evil?
Who offers his entire fortune in exchange for Hank's life? Evil?
Who ends up providing financial security for his son and deflecting blame from his wife? Evil?
Who saves Jesse's life at the end? Evil?


I'll repeat -- I am NOT making the case that Walt was a nice guy. He suffers from a raging ego and a huge chip on his shoulder, and he's spent the better part of five seasons desperately rationalizing his destructive actions. He has certainly done many evil things, but as a person he's way, way more layered than 'evil'. Yes, evil is part of him, but so is the struggling good guy and the devoted family man. Without his good and bad sides there is no conflict, no drama, no depth and no interest in Walter White the character. Geez - the entire show is based on his good and evil side battling each other.

Ask yourself this: Was it 'in-character' for Walt to kill people? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to repeatedly save Jesse? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to build a meth empire? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to try protecting Hank from Gus and then the Nazis? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to refuse to walk away from his empire? Was it 'in-character' for Walt to try to walk away from his empire?

The answer is "Yes" to all those wildly-opposing motives. It was totally in character for Walt to be either good or evil because that's who he was. We didn't know which Walt would show up each episode, but both made total sense. It made total sense to watch Walt killing Mike and planning a hit on Mike's guys because, yes, Walt became an evil SOB. But it made total sense to watch Walt save Jesse and Hank, and desperately try to send his son money, because, yes, Walt's also hangin' onto his good side.

Walter White committing evil was as much in-character as Walter White saving someone from evil, because they were the same conflicted, regretful, unhappy, lonely person. If you've missed those parts of Walter White and simply see 'evil', then you've spent five seasons watching a cartoon.

Finally, as to Vince Gilligan saying Walt was evil, I addressed this in another post. Good characters go beyond simple definitions, even those of their creators. If VG wanted a purely evil character, he wouldn't have wrapped up the final episode with so much redemption.
What are you really arguing about here? That Walter White is not 100% evil?
Who is? Even some serial killers care about their families. What's your point?

WW is evil, it doesn't matter if he has some good in him. Maybe he starts as a nice man, but he quickly turns into an evil character.


Same thing with Walt. Sure, he was this good guy, but he's still evil. Saying he's just partly evil is irrelevant. You're arguing over semantics, I don't care if he's 50%-73%-99% evil, at the end of the day, he is evil.

And your spoiler list is pretty funny. It's as if WW is this innocent man, this savior, that comes to the rescue out of the pureness of his heart. It's garbage. Everything you mentioned happened BECAUSE of him. He's responsible for everything, so because he tries to fix his mistakes, that were unforced to begin with, it makes him good??? Because he tries to help some people out of guilt, it makes him good? Just because he cares for his family, it makes him good??
Dude, that does make any sense.
Also, I only said those things to show they were decisions he's made that someone that is actually good (like you seem to believe WW is) would not have done. It was a short list, that can be extended easily, but the point wasn't to make a never ending list of the bad deeds WW has done. I shouldn't have to tell them to you..

There is no question WW battles between good or bad, that's the beauty of the show. But that's what is so interesting. It shows you how much a good kind hearted man can BECOME evil. There's no question about this. It's not good guy WW always pushed into a corner and only does things to protect himself and his family, you know out of the kindness of his heart.

The man is evil, there's no doubt about it. Just how much of it he is is pretty irrelevant.


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10-02-2013, 11:27 AM
  #513
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I was set to watch WWZ until I read the viewer reviews. It totally scared me off.
If you had any interest in watching WWZ I'd say don't listen to the nay-sayers. It was great! It was intense and managed to hit that part in the pit of my stomach that not too many movies manage to reach. Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

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10-02-2013, 11:29 AM
  #514
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Breaking Bad was the best show in years!

This is how you end a classic series. I'm looking at you dexter and sopranos!

 
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10-02-2013, 11:47 AM
  #515
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Anyway you guys can spoil the whole series in another thread? I come here to talk about movies and the whole show is being discussed. Cmon guys, create a breaking bad spoiler edition thread if you're going to do this.
I tried.

They moved the thread to syberia where nobody from this forum would discuss it. I wish the mods would just let threads be sometimes. I don't see why we can't have a separate thread in this forum... would make a lot of sense.
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Has anyone seen Runner Runner?
You mean the one with the coyote? Yeah, that was wicked.

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10-02-2013, 11:55 AM
  #516
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Agree completely (as we seem to have from the beginning). None of us (I hope) have been in the position of scrambling to make a mark before dying of a fatal disease. The cancer, the fortuitous drive-by with Hank where he first sees Jesse, the decision to cook meth as the way to make lots of quick cash, the psychopath dealers who are always one step away from killing him -- it's all a very contrived way to kick the show into gear and shove Walt down a path where his morality battles his ego and his survival instincts. As you said, if Walt hadn't been ground down so deeply by life before the cancer, he'd have very little motivation to climb up so high to compensate. The show would have no beginning.

Geez, if he'd been Canadian, the doctor would've told him he had cancer and that his free Medicare treatment starts next week. The end.

Good-guy Walt had no chance to thrive, and there was no show if he had. But good-guy Walt still hung on, even while Heisenberg's massive ego turned him into a raging egomaniac in the throes of total denial. I don't consider pride and ego to be 'evil', though the actions done in their names often are. Walt did some seriously evil stuff, but I maintain it's too easy to call him 'evil'. That simple description ignores all the conflict that fuelled Walter White through five seasons. If we acknowledge Walt's evil side, we also have to acknowledge his regret, his multiple attempts to save Jesse, his desperate stab at saving Hank, his final gambit to provide for his son, etc. Walt was that human side as much as he was his evil side. Anyone who doesn't get that has missed the great depth of this character and has, I think, missed the real point of this great series. There's nothing more interesting than a flawed character struggling with their flaws. Walt's flaws were huge and his struggle epic. That can only happen when the opposing sides of good and bad are balanced. If Walt was simply 'evil', there would have been no struggle, no battle, no drama, no interest.
At the end of the first episode he says to Jesse "I am awake!" That's his explanation for starting this whole thing off. He doesn't say "I need the money" or "I'm doing it for my family"... he's basically saying the law is for suckers and I'm not going to be one of them anymore.

Let's not forget how he got the idea in the first place too. He goes out on a sting with his brother in law and learns about how much cash those guys make. The trip would've happened whether he had cancer or not.

So would he have done it if he'd been the head of the Gray Matter empire? Probably not because he'd have something to lose. But as a middle class school teacher (even without cancer)? I think the temptation would've been too much and he would've done it anyway. His pride was hurt and this was his chance of being the bigshot he felt he deserved to be.

I think it's too easy to say he's evil or he's good. That's really an existential question that you could go on about forever. But I do believe that his road down the wrong path didn't start with him getting cancer... it started with that trip with Hank. Once he learned more about the business he would've gone into it one way or another.

Just this man's opinion.

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10-02-2013, 12:10 PM
  #517
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What are you really arguing about here? That Walter White is not 100% evil?
Who is? Even some serial killers care about their families. What's your point?

WW is evil, it doesn't matter if he has some good in him. Maybe he starts as a nice man, but he quickly turns into an evil character.

Same thing with Walt. Sure, he was this good guy, but he's still evil. Saying he's just partly evil is irrelevant. You're arguing over semantics, I don't care if he's 50%-73%-99% evil, at the end of the day, he is evil.
This doesn't make sense. You're saying it doesn't matter if a peanut-butter & jelly sandwich is 50% or 73% peanut-butter, you're going to call the sandwich peanut-butter. That just ain't the same sandwich.

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And your spoiler list is pretty funny. It's as if WW is this innocent man, this savior, that comes to the rescue out of the pureness of his heart. It's garbage. Everything you mentioned happened BECAUSE of him. He's responsible for everything, so because he tries to fix his mistakes, that were unforced to begin with, it makes him good??? Because he tries to help some people out of guilt, it makes him good? Just because he cares for his family, it makes him good??
First of all, this is factually wrong (though I'd rather not have to detail which events weren't directly Walt's fault) Second, if you read my post instead of reacted to it, you'd have noticed I said these lists are useless precisely because any list cherry-picks whatever side of his personality you want. Your original list was out of context and so was mine. Guess what -- you can't define a character by a handful of bullet points (unless it's a shallow character, I guess).

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Also, I only said those things to show they were decisions he's made that someone that is actually good (like you seem to believe WW is) would not have done. It was a short list, that can be extended easily, but the point wasn't to make a never ending list of the bad deeds WW has done. I shouldn't have to tell them to you..
If you actually think I'm selling Walt as a good-guy you've really misread my posts. Please take another look. Walt is a nasty, but very complicated, SOB.

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There is no question WW battles between good or bad, that's the beauty of the show. But that's what is so interesting. It shows you how much a good kind hearted man can BECOME evil. There's no question about this. It's not good guy WW always pushed into a corner and only does things to protect himself and his family, you know out of the kindness of his heart.

The man is evil, there's no doubt about it. Just how much of it he is is pretty irrelevant.
Every time you say "There is no question" or "No doubt about it", it sounds like you watched the show on a 14" black-&-white TV. Man, this show is nothing but questions! They have round-table debates between the cast and crew surrounding the what-ifs and deep motives of Walter White because there is a frikkin mountain of doubt as to the nature of this character. Presuming that you have it all figured out in one simple definition is a huge arrogant leap. So, no dude, Walt is not simply evil and his journey is not a straight line from good to evil. Yes, he becomes evil. And then he leaves evil and goes back to his normal life. And then he gets drawn back into evil. And then he resists evil by trying to save Jesse and Hank. And then finally he redeems himself (somewhat) in the final episode. You even acknowledged this redemption in an earlier post. That's not evil -- that's the battle between good and evil we both agree defined the show. Like the sandwich -- as long as there's jelly with the peanut-butter, it's not just a peanut-butter sandwich.

And yeah, before you hit me with the next volley, of course this is semantics. But what do you expect in a conversation about a fictional psyche? Don't make me drag math into this!

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10-02-2013, 12:16 PM
  #518
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What are you really arguing about here? That Walter White is not 100% evil?
Who is? Even some serial killers care about their families. What's your point?

WW is evil, it doesn't matter if he has some good in him. Maybe he starts as a nice man, but he quickly turns into an evil character.


Same thing with Walt. Sure, he was this good guy, but he's still evil. Saying he's just partly evil is irrelevant. You're arguing over semantics, I don't care if he's 50%-73%-99% evil, at the end of the day, he is evil.

The man is evil, there's no doubt about it. Just how much of it he is is pretty irrelevant.

What makes someone evil? Is stealing evil? Should a kid who steals a candy from the store be condemned to being evil for the rest of his life? Does robbing a bank make you evil? What if you did it to provide for your family? The bank charges me money every time I withdraw my OWN money. Is that evil? What if you murder someone. Is that evil? What if it's done to protect your family? Does that automatically make the act not evil or does it just excuse you from being guilty of the crime?

Why is Walter White evil? Because he killed some drug dealers and nazis? Couldn't you say that the world is a better place because of him? Doesn't that make him good? He did what he did to provide for his family by doing something he was good at until he finally admitted that he did it because he liked it and was good at it, unfortunately he made some mistakes along the way. Do you think he would have done what he did if he knew how it was going to turn out?

We all have an evil side and the potential for malice. But what keeps it in check? Up bringing and society? Morals and common sense? Love for our fellow man or fear of repercussion? People play games like Grand Theft Auto because they enjoy exploring their dark side. Doesn't mean they will automatically go out and start stealing cars and popping caps in peoples *****! What about the viewers who identify and sympathize with Walter White? Does that make us evil?

This show is waaaaaayyyy too deep and has way too many shades of gray to definitively say that this or that person is evil as if it were black and white. That's what makes this show so great! If you don't care what percentage a person is evil and it's all just semantics to you then by your very definition every single person on this planet is evil! Or did you imply that a person is evil when they cross the arbitrary 50% threshold. If so when did WW cross this barrier and by your definition can a person do enough "good" deeds to buy themselves back to being good? As you can see, relevance of this discussion is anything but irrelevant. I wish they had shows like this back when I was going to school. I would have wrote a whole paper about it.


Last edited by Bryson: 10-02-2013 at 12:48 PM.
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10-02-2013, 04:46 PM
  #519
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What makes someone evil? Is stealing evil? Should a kid who steals a candy from the store be condemned to being evil for the rest of his life? Does robbing a bank make you evil? What if you did it to provide for your family? The bank charges me money every time I withdraw my OWN money. Is that evil? What if you murder someone. Is that evil? What if it's done to protect your family? Does that automatically make the act not evil or does it just excuse you from being guilty of the crime?

Why is Walter White evil? Because he killed some drug dealers and nazis? Couldn't you say that the world is a better place because of him? Doesn't that make him good? He did what he did to provide for his family by doing something he was good at until he finally admitted that he did it because he liked it and was good at it, unfortunately he made some mistakes along the way. Do you think he would have done what he did if he knew how it was going to turn out?

We all have an evil side and the potential for malice. But what keeps it in check? Up bringing and society? Morals and common sense? Love for our fellow man or fear of repercussion? People play games like Grand Theft Auto because they enjoy exploring their dark side. Doesn't mean they will automatically go out and start stealing cars and popping caps in peoples *****! What about the viewers who identify and sympathize with Walter White? Does that make us evil?

This show is waaaaaayyyy too deep and has way too many shades of gray to definitively say that this or that person is evil as if it were black and white. That's what makes this show so great! If you don't care what percentage a person is evil and it's all just semantics to you then by your very definition every single person on this planet is evil! Or did you imply that a person is evil when they cross the arbitrary 50% threshold. If so when did WW cross this barrier and by your definition can a person do enough "good" deeds to buy themselves back to being good? As you can see, relevance of this discussion is anything but irrelevant. I wish they had shows like this back when I was going to school. I would have wrote a whole paper about it.
I have a degree in philosophy (Lafleurs Guy isn't totally stupid) and it's funny that your arguments run the gamut of what a philosophy 101 class would look like.

Utilitarianism vs. Kantian reasoning. Consequentialism (did his actions result in a greater good) vs deontological thinking (the act of stealing is evil in itself)... I guess it all depends on what school you subscribe to.

Tomorrow's philosophy topics: Does morality even exist? Also to be covered; What colour is 7?

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10-02-2013, 05:32 PM
  #520
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At the end of the first episode he says to Jesse "I am awake!" That's his explanation for starting this whole thing off. He doesn't say "I need the money" or "I'm doing it for my family"... he's basically saying the law is for suckers and I'm not going to be one of them anymore.

Let's not forget how he got the idea in the first place too. He goes out on a sting with his brother in law and learns about how much cash those guys make. The trip would've happened whether he had cancer or not.

So would he have done it if he'd been the head of the Gray Matter empire? Probably not because he'd have something to lose. But as a middle class school teacher (even without cancer)? I think the temptation would've been too much and he would've done it anyway. His pride was hurt and this was his chance of being the bigshot he felt he deserved to be.

I think it's too easy to say he's evil or he's good. That's really an existential question that you could go on about forever. But I do believe that his road down the wrong path didn't start with him getting cancer... it started with that trip with Hank. Once he learned more about the business he would've gone into it one way or another.

Just this man's opinion.
I re-watched S1E1 and, yeah, Walt's "I'm awake" comment sounds pretty powerful in retrospect. No question his cancer diagnosis rips away Walt's 50 years of polite rule-following and reveals the ego that's been burning inside. Five seasons, dozens of moral compromises and a few moral moments later, there's still no definitive summary of just what or who he became. I think the fact that we accepted Walt doing evil as well as saving people from evil proves he was somewhere in that wide grey area in between the two.

Picture Todd suddenly wheeling around and shooting his uncle to save Jesse, or calling the cops out of guilt. Never, because it would've been totally out of character for Todd to take that moral leap. But Walt could, and did, rise to that level of morality, just as he could sink to some seriously disgusting depths.

On a more philosophical note, maybe I'm more forgiving of Walt's duality (though I do NOT forgive it outright!) because I understand the nature of temptation and the tsunami of unintended consequences it opens up. Breaking Bad is an extreme example, but after seeing many real-life examples of temptation, consequences and pain, most have been filed under "Stupid", or "Immature", or "Selfish". "Evil", thankfully, is rare.

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10-02-2013, 07:27 PM
  #521
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I re-watched S1E1 and, yeah, Walt's "I'm awake" comment sounds pretty powerful in retrospect. No question his cancer diagnosis rips away Walt's 50 years of polite rule-following and reveals the ego that's been burning inside. Five seasons, dozens of moral compromises and a few moral moments later, there's still no definitive summary of just what or who he became. I think the fact that we accepted Walt doing evil as well as saving people from evil proves he was somewhere in that wide grey area in between the two.

Picture Todd suddenly wheeling around and shooting his uncle to save Jesse, or calling the cops out of guilt. Never, because it would've been totally out of character for Todd to take that moral leap. But Walt could, and did, rise to that level of morality, just as he could sink to some seriously disgusting depths.

On a more philosophical note, maybe I'm more forgiving of Walt's duality (though I do NOT forgive it outright!) because I understand the nature of temptation and the tsunami of unintended consequences it opens up. Breaking Bad is an extreme example, but after seeing many real-life examples of temptation, consequences and pain, most have been filed under "Stupid", or "Immature", or "Selfish". "Evil", thankfully, is rare.
I'm always leery of calling somebody 'evil' or 'good' because they are relative terms. I also don't want to throw stones within a glass house.

Is Walt up there with Uncle Jack or Todd? No. I think those are two very dark characters. Even Todd though seemed like there was some good in him. On the one hand he seemed really nice to Walt and then on the other...

Nobody is totally evil. I think we all know that Walt has a conscience and there's no debating this. But a LOT of times in this show there's a fork in the road and he takes the wrong path. That could be said of ALL of us of course but some of those paths were uh... dark to say the least.

So is he 'evil'? I'd say his actions were evil, I'd say that he does it not for the noble reasons that you (and Walt) have suggested. I'd say he does it out of greed, pride and insecurity about himself. He's not a total villain in the sense that say Brad Marchand is but he's certainly not a heroic figure.

So where is he on the list of villains? He's not Blofeld or Lex Luthor or Tony Suprano.... but he's worse than Nurse Ratched, Gordon Gekko or Mr. Potter. On the sliding scale of bad I'd put him somewhere next to Dexter (probably worse than Dexter because Dex can't help it) or Colonel Kurtz. Certainly not a great guy nor is it great company to be with.

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10-04-2013, 03:24 PM
  #522
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watching this is the end right now.

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10-04-2013, 04:14 PM
  #523
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thanks to the detailed and lenghty posts, you gave up enough stuff about the Breaking Bad serie I wont have to start watching it (the wife wanted to)

whenever you decide to talk about another serie, try not to kill it by giving way too much info about it... just in case I'd feel like watching it.

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10-05-2013, 06:16 AM
  #524
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Rush is the best 2013 movie that I have seen so far. A fantastic character study with a lot of suspense and tension and an actual theme. It is also funny at times.

Do not look up the history of the drivers prior to watching it.

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10-05-2013, 06:55 AM
  #525
Lshap
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thanks to the detailed and lenghty posts, you gave up enough stuff about the Breaking Bad serie I wont have to start watching it (the wife wanted to)

whenever you decide to talk about another serie, try not to kill it by giving way too much info about it... just in case I'd feel like watching it.
Sorry about my part in this. Sometimes the philosophies come too fast and furious for proper spoilers.

On the other hand, if you're really looking for an 'out' for certain shows, let me know what else I can ruin for you.

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