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Kovalchuk: Would you accept him back? (Mod Note Post 293)

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10-23-2013, 03:18 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
42 year old Jagr > Kovalchuk.

I'm serious.
I'm pretty sure Jagr is on pace for the same amount of points as Kovalchuk was last year. Kovalchuk was not that great last year. I think Ryder has already matched half of Kovalchuk's even strength goal totals last year, in just 9 games this year.

Kovalchuk wasn't that good last year. I mean I guess you could say he was ''Good'' but he wasn't great. Not by his standards. I can't remember him taking over many games last year as he's a supposed ''Gamebreaker'' or scoring many meaningful goals. The Washington OT winner in game 3 of last season was the last big goal I remember.

He would help us offensively right now, no doubt. Especially if we got the second half 10-11 or 11-12 Kovalchuk.

The loss of Kovalchuk still doesn't explain why we've given up 3 goals in all but one game this season.

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10-23-2013, 03:23 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Bleedred View Post
I'm pretty sure Jagr is on pace for the same amount of points as Kovalchuk was last year. Kovalchuk was not that great last year. I think Ryder has already matched half of Kovalchuk's even strength goal totals last year, in just 9 games this year.

Kovalchuk wasn't that good last year. I mean I guess you could say he was ''Good'' but he wasn't great. Not by his standards. I can't remember him taking over many games last year as he's a supposed ''Gamebreaker'' or scoring many meaningful goals. The Washington OT winner in game 3 of last season was the last big goal I remember.

He would help us offensively right now, no doubt. Especially if we got the second half 10-11 or 11-12 Kovalchuk.

The loss of Kovalchuk still doesn't explain why we've given up 3 goals in all but one game this season.
Kovalchuk would change on how the opposing team has to play, so yes he may factor in every aspect of the game, even defense

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10-23-2013, 03:28 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Take Notes View Post
Kovalchuk would change on how the opposing team has to play, so yes he may factor in every aspect of the game, even defense
I don't think so. Kovalchuk was not particularly good at defense (At even strength) as much as many people thought he had become a good defensive player. I just didn't really see it at even strength. Not so much a liability anymore as he used to be, but not good.

The shorthanded offense probably will take a significant dive without him. We've also got a different coach in charge of the PK this year though.

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10-23-2013, 03:30 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Bleedred View Post
I'm pretty sure Jagr is on pace for the same amount of points as Kovalchuk was last year. Kovalchuk was not that great last year. I think Ryder has already matched half of Kovalchuk's even strength goal totals last year, in just 9 games this year.

Kovalchuk wasn't that good last year. I mean I guess you could say he was ''Good'' but he wasn't great. Not by his standards. I can't remember him taking over many games last year as he's a supposed ''Gamebreaker'' or scoring many meaningful goals. The Washington OT winner in game 3 of last season was the last big goal I remember.

He would help us offensively right now, no doubt. Especially if we got the second half 10-11 or 11-12 Kovalchuk.

The loss of Kovalchuk still doesn't explain why we've given up 3 goals in all but one game this season.
We get it. He sucked last season. He was completely out of it and checked out. That's not admirable and nobody is condoning it. But, he is twice the player that Jagr is and same goes for Ryder. He would be a big help

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10-23-2013, 03:32 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Take Notes View Post
Some posters rather have a losing team then have Kovy back and win again.

But okay lets enjoy our 1 win in 10 games.
You realize they went on a 6 game losing streak with him in the lineup last year and STILL weren't scoring with him playing 25 minutes a night right? Things wouldn't be a whole lot different with him here right now considering they wouldn't have been able to bring in half the UFA's they did because his contract was so humongous.

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10-23-2013, 03:33 PM
  #156
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We get it. He sucked last season. He was completely out of it and checked out. That's not admirable and nobody is condoning it. But, he is twice the player that Jagr is and same goes for Ryder. He would be a big help
I would definitely take the second half 10-11 or 11-12 Kovalchuk over Ryder or Jagr. It would be an easy decision.

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10-23-2013, 03:34 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Benedict Parisechuk View Post
You realize they went on a 6 game losing streak with him in the lineup last year and STILL weren't scoring with him playing 25 minutes a night right? Things wouldn't be a whole lot different with him here right now considering they wouldn't have been able to bring in half the UFA's they did because his contract was so humongous.
If you cant see that last year was an off year for him, then you can go run with those who ran victory laps after he retired

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10-23-2013, 03:35 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Benedict Parisechuk View Post
You realize they went on a 6 game losing streak with him in the lineup last year and STILL weren't scoring with him playing 25 minutes a night right? Things wouldn't be a whole lot different with him here right now considering they wouldn't have been able to bring in half the UFA's they did because his contract was so humongous.
We were on a 6 year losing streak with Hedberg in net. And Kovalchuk's supporting cast was Bobby Butler and Alexei Ponikarovsky---not Damien Brunner and Michael Ryder.

Kovalchuk's absence has destroyed much of our game. Our PP is virtually useless now. Our PK has no threat of scoring. And I'd attribute roughly one goal scored less per game due to Kovalchuk's departure. Even if he didn't score every night, his mere presence opened up room for other players on the ice to score because he'd naturally draw 1 if not 2 defenders close to him.

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10-23-2013, 03:35 PM
  #159
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Our current 17 is on pace to practically shatter the old 17's numbers from last season.

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10-23-2013, 03:37 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Benedict Parisechuk View Post
Our current 17 is on pace to practically shatter the old 17's numbers from last season.
Until Ryder shows me he can carry a team singlehandedly as Kovalchuk's done in the past for us (such as in the much referenced second half of 2010-11), I will never rank Ryder anywhere near Kovalchuk.

EDIT:

It's also worth noting that Deboer refused to put Kovalchuk back at his normal position of LW, despite the fact nearly all of his goals last year were from the left side of the ice.

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10-23-2013, 03:37 PM
  #161
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Losing Kovalchuk still doesn't explain why we've given up at least 3 goals in 8 of 9 games this year.

And Kovalchuk was not very clutch during that losing streak that he was apart of last year. We won 3 of 13 games I think, and 2 of them were in the shootout. We lose those two shootouts that we won, and we have just as long of a losing streak with Kovalchuk in the lineup, as the one we had with him out of the lineup.

One regulation win during that stretch with Marty injured. Can't remember too many big goals from him. One shorty in a beating against the Flyers, our only regulation win of that stretch. Two goals in a beatdown from the Hurricanes.

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10-23-2013, 03:37 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Benedict Parisechuk View Post
Our current 17 is on pace to practically shatter the old 17's numbers from last season.
Yes and the 17 of the year before was twice the player our current 17 will ever be, and that's not a knock on Ryder, Kovy wss that good.

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10-23-2013, 03:39 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Take Notes View Post
Some posters rather have a losing team then have Kovy back and win again.

But okay lets enjoy our 1 win in 10 games.
Kovy alone wouldn't fix our problems but I'll admit would have been pretty cool to see Jagr and Kovy play together

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10-23-2013, 03:40 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Bleedred View Post
Losing Kovalchuk still doesn't explain why we've given up at least 3 goals in 8 of 9 games this year.
Other teams has to adjust to his presence, so they might take less chances, and it goes on, I'm not saying that we would have 5 shutouts, but a player with the caliber of Kovy changes the complexity of the whole game

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10-23-2013, 03:41 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Bleedred View Post
Losing Kovalchuk still doesn't explain why we've given up at least 3 goals in 8 of 9 games this year.

And Kovalchuk was not very clutch during that losing streak that he was apart of last year. We won 3 of 13 games I think, and 2 of them were in the shootout. We lose those two shootouts that we won, and we have just as long of a losing streak with Kovalchuk in the lineup, as the one we had with him out of the lineup.

One regulation win during that stretch with Marty injured. Can't remember too many big goals from him. One shorty in a beating against the Flyers, our only regulation win of that stretch. Two goals in a beatdown from the Hurricanes.
Agreed that we are giving up a ton of goal which is a problem and Kovy wouldn't change it all that much but how many have we given up chasing the game near the end (empy-netters or just bad pinches) because we are down a goal? Maybe we wouldn't be doing that so often if we had an actual offensive threat.

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10-23-2013, 03:41 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Take Notes View Post
If you cant see that last year was an off year for him, then you can go run with those who ran victory laps after he retired
Well you really don't know that considering he already has a bum shoulder right now. The injuries have been piling up for him going back to June 2012. I'm not saying he wouldn't help things right now but I don't think he would making THAT much of a difference. Were probably a .500 team with him. He failed every time he had to be "The Guy" in his 3 years here.

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10-23-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Benedict Parisechuk View Post
Well you really don't know that considering he already has a bum shoulder right now. The injuries have been piling up for him going back to June 2012. I'm not saying he wouldn't help things right now but I don't think he would making THAT much of a difference. Were probably a .500 team with him. He failed every time he had to be "The Guy" in his 3 years here.
I don't about failing in the second half with Lemaire and our Cup run season

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10-23-2013, 03:46 PM
  #168
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Agreed that we are giving up a ton of goal which is a problem and Kovy wouldn't change it all that much but how many have we given up chasing the game near the end (empy-netters or just bad pinches) because we are down a goal? Maybe we wouldn't be doing that so often if we had an actual offensive threat.
I'm pretty sure we've only tied the game with the goalie pulled like two times with Kovalchuk even on the team. I remember digging up our empty net statistics in 11-12 even. We gave up an empty net goal almost half the times we pulled the goalie that year. We only scored with the extra attacker once that year. We also gave up goals with the other teams goalie pulled I think 3 or 4 times that year.
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Originally Posted by Benedict Parisechuk View Post
Well you really don't know that considering he already has a bum shoulder right now. The injuries have been piling up for him going back to June 2012. I'm not saying he wouldn't help things right now but I don't think he would making THAT much of a difference. Were probably a .500 team with him. He failed every time he had to be "The Guy" in his 3 years here.
Well you figure if he was here, Jagr probably wouldn't be. Who knows if we'd even have Brunner either?

I'll go with a 500 team at best, depending on who else we didn't have that we do have now.

I think we probably don't get shutout both of those games. Maybe just one, or possibly neither. Maybe we get another goal out of the Calgary or Vancouver games. Maybe we get one more goal in a game like last nights.

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10-23-2013, 03:48 PM
  #169
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Kovy himself wouldn't be a problem here right now. The way the coaches would utilize him is what would be a problem.

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10-23-2013, 03:49 PM
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Bleedred, my point was that we wouldn't be down and chasing games as often as we are now

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10-23-2013, 03:50 PM
  #171
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Kovy himself wouldn't be a problem here right now. The way the coaches would utilize him is what would be a problem.
That too. Kovalchuk looked like a bum by his standards last year. I do think a lot of that had to do with him not wanting to be here anymore, but you can't expect Kovalchuk to be any good playing on the opposite wing with Ponikarovsky and other junk.

It worked with Parise, but not these other bums. He made Nick Palmieri look good when he played his correct position.

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10-23-2013, 03:53 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Jamie1987 View Post
Kovy alone wouldn't fix our problems but I'll admit would have been pretty cool to see Jagr and Kovy play together
Jagr wouldn't be here if Kovachuk was still here.
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I don't about failing in the second half with Lemaire and our Cup run season
Those games in the 2nd half of 2010 were essentially meaningless until they got within about 8 points and pooped out. When the games mattered most in the fall/winter of 2010 he pulled a Harry Houdini. Not saying it was ALL his fault because the coach was a clown but he still didn't do anything to help the cause. He was aided during the cup run by Parise and Elias, Henrique emerging and Sykora throwing back the clock. The support system played as big a role as anything. He was great that year, don't get me wrong but he was never asked to be the guy that year.

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10-23-2013, 03:56 PM
  #173
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That too. Kovalchuk looked like a bum by his standards last year. I do think a lot of that had to do with him not wanting to be here anymore, but you can't expect Kovalchuk to be any good playing on the opposite wing with Ponikarovsky and other junk.

It worked with Parise, but not these other bums. He made Nick Palmieri look good when he played his correct position.
I didn't mean it in that way at all. I meant in the sense that he would be back to playing 2 minutes on every power play, and having the entire 2 minutes run through him and one corner of the ice. It became too easy to defend and we were lost without him because no one else knew how to run a part of the power play. Even if the results are similar, the PP looks much better this year solely because more people are involved. The problems with how he was utilized in the past would happen again, and probably make other players less effective as he would be overworked with the earned ice time of others.

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10-23-2013, 03:59 PM
  #174
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Kovalchuk would help this team. Let me make that perfectly clear. Maybe we wouldn't be getting shutout by the Al Montoya's of the world (We did get shutout by Anders Nilsson in his first NHL start when he was here though)

I don't think he's the biggest reason for our problems though. The nosedive started last year about a month before he was injured. We could have just easily won only one of 13 games during that stretch Marty was out, when Kovalchuk was in the lineup. We could have also won a couple shootouts when Kovalchuk was injured.

This teams collapse started a month before Kovalchuk was injured. Let's go back to probably that two games in a row against Washington last year. Or maybe even that game against the Islanders with the Tavares hat trick.

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10-23-2013, 04:03 PM
  #175
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Kovalchuk would help this team. Let me make that perfectly clear. Maybe we wouldn't be getting shutout by the Al Montoya's of the world (We did get shutout by Anders Nilsson in his first NHL start when he was here though)

I don't think he's the biggest reason for our problems though. The nosedive started last year about a month before he was injured. We could have just easily won only one of 13 games during that stretch Marty was out, when Kovalchuk was in the lineup. We could have also won a couple shootouts when Kovalchuk was injured.

This teams collapse started a month before Kovalchuk was injured. Let's go back to probably that two games in a row against Washington last year. Or maybe even that game against the Islanders with the Tavares hat trick.
Exactly. Those games when Marty was out were not a whole hell of a lot different than what were seeing now. The only difference was Hedberg turning into a sieve. They were barely averaging 2 goals a game during that span and that's when they had outstanding puck possession and they still couldn't score.

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