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Other Chicago and General Sports Thread XXI - Baseball...we survived!

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Old
09-05-2013, 11:21 AM
  #126
Cullksinikers
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
I like Groce's chance once he gets a kid on campus
My firm belief on everything is that QS is down to UCLA and U of I and Cliff is down to Kansas and U of I. If Snider commits now after Leron did, Cliff will see Champaign-Urbana as a "hip" place to play college basketball. It's really that simple. I think if they get one, they get both. If they wind up just getting Snider, that's still a huge get for the program, but the (big) cherry on top would be Cliff.

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09-05-2013, 11:36 AM
  #127
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My firm belief on everything is that QS is down to UCLA and U of I and Cliff is down to Kansas and U of I. If Snider commits now after Leron did, Cliff will see Champaign-Urbana as a "hip" place to play college basketball. It's really that simple. I think if they get one, they get both. If they wind up just getting Snider, that's still a huge get for the program, but the (big) cherry on top would be Cliff.
Groce vs Alford is one thing, Groce vs $elf is an entirely different one. I'd be happy if they just get Snider, PG is a huge need position.

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09-05-2013, 11:57 AM
  #128
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Paul Hines and Tip O'Neill won Triple Crowns. They're far from great players. Look at the 30-30 club. There's 38 players in that, some of which aren't even considered very good.

I understand what you're getting at, but it doesn't make them better because they were in the right place at the right time with three specific stats.

If I wanted to compare Cabrera to Pujols, the Triple Crown wouldn't factor into the decision because he's posted 7 seasons better than Cabrera's best and 2 more seasons with a .400+ wOBA.
only two players who ever won it and aren't in HOF. Also both were before 1900. And besides, Cabrera appears to be in his peak right now, where as pujols is 3 or 4 years older and seemingly deteriorating quickly

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09-05-2013, 11:59 AM
  #129
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Murray, would you rather have a triple crown winner or league leader in OBP?

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09-05-2013, 12:24 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Murray, would you rather have a triple crown winner or league leader in OBP?
What kind of question is that? Everyone would have taken Cabrera over Joe Mauer last year.

I'd rather have the league leader in OBP than the league leader in batting average, all else equal.


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09-05-2013, 12:34 PM
  #131
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I guess what I am getting at is that with advanced stats coming in, it's like having a high batting average and a bunch of RBIs is bad. Those are not random stats.

And one thing I have always argued is that a single is worth much more than a walk. I'd say 3 walks are worth 2 singles and an out. Some people will say it's equal but anytime you put the ball in play, things happen. I just feel like OBP and some other stats have been a bit overblown.

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09-05-2013, 12:57 PM
  #132
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I'd rather have the league leader in wOBA, UZR and BSR, which would probably be like a 20 WAR player.

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09-05-2013, 01:00 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
I guess what I am getting at is that with advanced stats coming in, it's like having a high batting average and a bunch of RBIs is bad. Those are not random stats.

And one thing I have always argued is that a single is worth much more than a walk. I'd say 3 walks are worth 2 singles and an out. Some people will say it's equal but anytime you put the ball in play, things happen. I just feel like OBP and some other stats have been a bit overblown.
But it doesn't make you any better. Those are your stats. Just because you hit the circumstantial lottery doesn't make you a better player. If Player A had better stats than Player B, but Player B won the Triple Crown, Player A is still better.

I'd rather have the bases loaded than one man on third or two men on or a none because there was a triple play. There are zero bad outcomes with a walk. There are many with a batted ball. It's a risk/reward issue with the same outcome. That's why they're equal.

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09-05-2013, 01:07 PM
  #134
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I agree, Trout was better last year IMO, largely because of his unbelievable steal total and conversion rate, plus his defense.

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09-05-2013, 01:11 PM
  #135
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I agree, Trout was better last year IMO, largely because of his unbelievable steal total and conversion rate, plus his defense.
He was also a top 3 hitter in baseball.

He's better this year, too.

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09-05-2013, 01:36 PM
  #136
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What kind of question is that? Everyone would have taken Cabrera over Joe Mauer last year.

I'd rather have the league leader in OBP than the league leader in batting average, all else equal.
depends on how close and also their slg% imo.

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I'd rather have the league leader in wOBA, UZR and BSR, which would probably be like a 20 WAR player.
who wouldn't....

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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
I agree, Trout was better last year IMO, largely because of his unbelievable steal total and conversion rate, plus his defense.
Better hitter or better player?

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Originally Posted by MurrayBannerman View Post
He was also a top 3 hitter in baseball.

He's better this year, too.
Again, better hitter or better player? He's certainly not a better hitter. Lower obp, lower slg, lower average, half the hr's....

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09-05-2013, 01:40 PM
  #137
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As a hitter, Trout was and is among the best, but yeah, I give the better hitter title to Cabrera last year for sure. However, the other things Trout did that Cabrera did not made a huge difference.

Trout was an elite base stealer and defender, Cabrera was pretty poor in both respects although I give him credit for making third base work as well as he did.

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09-05-2013, 01:43 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
As a hitter, Trout was and is among the best, but yeah, I give the better hitter title to Cabrera last year for sure. However, the other things Trout did that Cabrera did not made a huge difference.

Trout was an elite base stealer and defender, Cabrera was pretty poor in both respects although I give him credit for making third base work as well as he did.
I don't think trout is an elite defensive player, in fact I'd say he's just an above average defensive player. I also think that SB's have a tendency to get overrated.

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09-05-2013, 01:47 PM
  #139
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depends on how close and also their slg% imo.



who wouldn't....



Better hitter or better player?



Again, better hitter or better player? He's certainly not a better hitter. Lower obp, lower slg, lower average, half the hr's....
Different argument. Different question.

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09-05-2013, 01:48 PM
  #140
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I don't think trout is an elite defensive player, in fact I'd say he's just an above average defensive player. I also think that SB's have a tendency to get overrated.
Based on what? His lower UZR this year? He's a legitimate grade 80 defender according to everyone and a moderate variance stat doesn't change that.

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09-05-2013, 01:50 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
As a hitter, Trout was and is among the best, but yeah, I give the better hitter title to Cabrera last year for sure. However, the other things Trout did that Cabrera did not made a huge difference.

Trout was an elite base stealer and defender, Cabrera was pretty poor in both respects although I give him credit for making third base work as well as he did.
He's an average baserunner but a butcher in the field.

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09-05-2013, 02:33 PM
  #142
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Based on what? His lower UZR this year? He's a legitimate grade 80 defender according to everyone and a moderate variance stat doesn't change that.
dwar doesn't like him much and his arm isn't great from what I've seen/read. And grade 80 sounds like "above average" to me. And his first season could be just as much a fluke as you're arguing his second season is. Also, as far as his range factor, he's been right around league average both seasons...


Last edited by madgoat33: 09-05-2013 at 02:38 PM.
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09-05-2013, 02:38 PM
  #143
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Of course Hawkman would be an ND guy

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Old
09-05-2013, 02:46 PM
  #144
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dwar doesn't like him much and his arm isn't great from what I've seen/read. And grade 80 sounds like "above average" to me. And his first season could be just as much a fluke as you're arguing his second season is. Also, as far as his range factor, he's been right around league average both seasons...
80 is the highest on the scale and extremely rare. Andrelton Simmons is an 80 defender. Shane Victorino isn't but he's having a season like one.

The scouting opinions hold more weight than the defensive metrics, which back up Trout, because they're not fully developed yet. That said, they do hold weight, especially when they correlate.

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09-05-2013, 03:10 PM
  #145
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80 is the highest on the scale and extremely rare. Andrelton Simmons is an 80 defender. Shane Victorino isn't but he's having a season like one.

The scouting opinions hold more weight than the defensive metrics, which back up Trout, because they're not fully developed yet. That said, they do hold weight, especially when they correlate.

"advanced metrics matter until they don't fit in with my argument."

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09-06-2013, 01:35 AM
  #146
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Would you guys do something like Castro, Pierce Johnson, Vogelbach and Valbuena for Felix Hernandez? I like it a lot for both teams, especially Seattle.

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09-06-2013, 02:38 AM
  #147
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A SS with big question marks about him going forward, a promising college pitcher, a power bat that can't play any D, and if by Luis Valbuena you mean a mediocre infielder?

Seattle could do much better.

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09-06-2013, 08:36 AM
  #148
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What do you think is value from the Cubs? It's hard for me to gauge because I keep thinking about the 27M per.

On a side note, Castro would be deadly in a place like Safeco.

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09-06-2013, 11:42 AM
  #149
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"advanced metrics matter until they don't fit in with my argument."
"This says defense so maybe I can seem like I know what I'm talking about."

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/201...agree-too-much

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/200...ther-defensive

OMG! Evidence!

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Old
09-06-2013, 12:18 PM
  #150
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That's not even close for King Felix.

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