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Whose peak season was better, Jagr in 1998-99 or Fedorov in 1993-94

View Poll Results: Better peak season, Jagr or Fedorov
Jagr's 1998-99 season 76 65.52%
Fedorov's 1993-94 season 40 34.48%
Voters: 116. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-05-2013, 08:56 PM
  #1
livewell68
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Whose peak season was better, Jagr in 1998-99 or Fedorov in 1993-94

Very simple question.

Who's peak season was more impressive.

Jagr's 1998-99 season, Hart trophy, Art Ross, Pearson, 127 Pts in 81 games, 20 more points than the second leading scorer (as many assists (83) as his teammate Straka had points, + 17. The Penguins scored 242 goals and Jagr had a hand in 52% of his team's goals, one other player scored 52 Pts on the Penguins.

or

Fedorov's 1993-94 season, Hart trophy, Selke, Pearson, 2nd in league scoring with 6 of his teammates scoring 70 Pts or more, +47. The Red Wings scored 356 goals total and Fedorov had a hand in 34% of the team's overall goals.


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09-05-2013, 09:00 PM
  #2
TheDevilMadeMe
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I would vote for too close to call if it were an option. These two plus Ovechkin's 2007-08 were the best 3 seasons by a European forward in NHL history, in my opinion

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09-05-2013, 09:44 PM
  #3
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They are both extremely impressive seasons but the offensive numbers look much closer than they actually are in context.

Jagr.

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09-05-2013, 09:53 PM
  #4
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I would vote for too close to call if it were an option. These two plus Ovechkin's 2007-08 were the best 3 seasons by a European forward in NHL history, in my opinion
Malkins 2008-2009 and 2011-2012 says hello.

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09-05-2013, 09:56 PM
  #5
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Jagr.


His peak and his prime is far greater than any other Euro bar none.

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09-05-2013, 10:00 PM
  #6
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Originally Posted by Malkin112 View Post
Malkins 2008-2009 and 2011-2012 says hello.
You could include Ovechkin's 2009-10 season as well. He was on pace for 57 goals and 124 points.

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09-05-2013, 10:04 PM
  #7
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Originally Posted by Malkin112 View Post
Malkins 2008-2009 and 2011-2012 says hello.
Ovi's 2007-2008 was much better than Malkin's two best seasons. Ovi had 65 goals.

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09-05-2013, 10:35 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by Tpinheiro4 View Post
Ovi's 2007-2008 was much better than Malkin's two best seasons. Ovi had 65 goals.
I agree it's better than Malkins 2008-2009 regular season, but he had one of the best play off runs in recent history that season. 2011-2012 Malkin was 55g and 120 point pace so it has to be quite close Ovi's best season.

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09-05-2013, 11:16 PM
  #9
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Originally Posted by Tpinheiro4 View Post
Ovi's 2007-2008 was much better than Malkin's two best seasons. Ovi had 65 goals.
There is more to a good season than just scoring goals. Malkin was flat out dominant in 2011-12 and was the closest I have seen anyone dominate to Jagr's level since basically Jagr.


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09-05-2013, 11:16 PM
  #10
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Originally Posted by Malkin112 View Post
I agree it's better than Malkins 2008-2009 regular season, but he had one of the best play off runs in recent history that season. 2011-2012 Malkin was 55g and 120 point pace so it has to be quite close Ovi's best season.
Actually 119 points pace in 2011-12.

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09-05-2013, 11:27 PM
  #11
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
There is more to a good season than just scoring goals. Malkin was flat out dominant in 2011-12 and was the closest I have seen anyone dominate to Jagr's level since basically Jagr.
Offensively, Malkin was dominant in 2011-12, but IMO lack of high end competition was a big factor. He also provided nothing but offense, while Ovechkin 2007-2010 brought an intimidating physical game.

If you don't think there was weak competition at the top in 2011-12, I can see how you would like the season more.


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09-05-2013, 11:48 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by Malkin112 View Post
Malkins 2008-2009 and 2011-2012 says hello.
Great season, no doubt. But both of these are a step behind. It is quite telling that Malkin won the 08-09 Art Ross and his campaign wasn't considered as good as Ovechkin's 08-09 which in itself is a step behind what OV did in 07-08.

So, Malkin had great season's but those were a clear step behind that monster 65 goal campaign Ovechkin pulled. As TDMM said, OV, Jagr and Feds have the best peak-season's for any european forward.

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Old
09-06-2013, 12:57 AM
  #13
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I would vote for too close to call if it were an option. These two plus Ovechkin's 2007-08 were the best 3 seasons by a European forward in NHL history, in my opinion
I was going to say the first sentence and I agree with the 2nd.

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09-06-2013, 01:18 AM
  #14
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Offensively, Malkin was dominant in 2011-12, but IMO lack of high end competition was a big factor. He also provided nothing but offense, while Ovechkin 2007-2010 brought an intimidating physical game.

If you don't think there was weak competition at the top in 2011-12, I can see how you would like the season more.
what are you talking about? Malkin is very good neutral zone player that's why he is usually top-5 takeaways and surely he is not Selke caliber on his own zone, but compared to Oveckhin he is second coming of Bobby Orr.

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09-06-2013, 07:43 AM
  #15
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Originally Posted by Malkin112 View Post
what are you talking about? Malkin is very good neutral zone player that's why he is usually top-5 takeaways and surely he is not Selke caliber on his own zone, but compared to Oveckhin he is second coming of Bobby Orr.
It was (but hopefully isn't any longer) a common misnomer that Ovechkin was a "complete player" back when he was matched head to head vs. Crosby in countless debates because Ovechkin was physical (as if that's what "complete" actually means). Even though Ovechkin was never close to as good defensively as Crosby was/is.

Ovechkin gets a lot of mileage out of the fact that he skates into traffic trying one on one moves and then when he loses it, he just shoves the opposing player down out of, I don't know, frustration...? It's not at all effective or relevant to the game though. It's incorrectly labeled as "another dimension", "passion" and even "leadership" by some - quite strangely, might I add.

Him flying in on the forecheck and taking charges at emerging defensemen on the breakout at least was grounded in some principles of hockey...but the last few years, him just shoving people down because he lost the puck (again) doesn't equate to anything meaningful unfortunately...

Malkin's NZ play - especially in his last couple seasons - is more important to the game of hockey, the process of winning the game, than really anything Ovechkin has done away from the puck in his career to date. Of course, Ovechkin with the puck, in the seasons we're discussing, was a sight to see - no question.

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09-06-2013, 09:43 AM
  #16
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68. when he was in "something to prove" mode in his prime the league simply couldn't handly him offensively.

federov was a beast too but jagr is a tier above federov. jagr imposed his will...

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09-06-2013, 10:05 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
It was (but hopefully isn't any longer) a common misnomer that Ovechkin was a "complete player" back when he was matched head to head vs. Crosby in countless debates because Ovechkin was physical (as if that's what "complete" actually means). Even though Ovechkin was never close to as good defensively as Crosby was/is.

Ovechkin gets a lot of mileage out of the fact that he skates into traffic trying one on one moves and then when he loses it, he just shoves the opposing player down out of, I don't know, frustration...? It's not at all effective or relevant to the game though. It's incorrectly labeled as "another dimension", "passion" and even "leadership" by some - quite strangely, might I add.

Him flying in on the forecheck and taking charges at emerging defensemen on the breakout at least was grounded in some principles of hockey...but the last few years, him just shoving people down because he lost the puck (again) doesn't equate to anything meaningful unfortunately...

Malkin's NZ play - especially in his last couple seasons - is more important to the game of hockey, the process of winning the game, than really anything Ovechkin has done away from the puck in his career to date. Of course, Ovechkin with the puck, in the seasons we're discussing, was a sight to see - no question.
I remember Colin White, the biggest, baddest defenseman the Devils have had since Scott Stevens on his way to retrieving the puck in his own zone, see Ovechkin getting ready to hit him, brace himself, and get destroyed anyway. Ovechkin came up with the puck. How does that not help win hockey games? Malkin and Ovechkin (like Jagr) are both lazy back checkers.

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09-06-2013, 11:56 AM
  #18
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You are all crazy. Fedorov's defensive advantage all but destroys
Jag's offensive in their peak seasons. Prime you have a good argument, although Fed's four 20 pt. playoffs also matter somewhat.

And why didn't you actually post Fed's stats in the OP? Because it would be more impressive?

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09-06-2013, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ot92s View Post
68. when he was in "something to prove" mode in his prime the league simply couldn't handly him offensively.

federov was a beast too but jagr is a tier above federov. jagr imposed his will...
Offensively, yeah (percentage of team offense, scoring titles, and numbers considering the DPE bare that out quite easily), but "overall"? I dunno. When I think of '93/94 vs '98/99 I feel like Jagr scoring points in those days was just an one way offensive race against teams pouring goals in past Barrasso/Skudra and that crap defense, whereas Fedorov's 120 points in his season came through play that made him +48 at the end of the regular season. That year Jagr had nights where he got 5 points and ended up only +1, or 3 points and finished -2, for example (also found a 2 point night where he finished -4!). Fedorov was never minus on a multi-point night. Basically, Jagr having an offensive outburst didn't always pay off for his team in the end, but with Fedorov, it did.

Neither willed their team on to much in the playoffs either season, so it's a matter of voting for Jagr's offensive prowess that year or Fedorov's complete game coupled with elite offense. Not a run-away vote by any stretch, imo. I'd probably even lean towards Fedorov, as Jagr wasn't even at peak goal-scoring prowess that year, almost lucky to top the 40 mark, getting 7 goals in 7 April games leading up to the playoffs (to make 44), and being on of the few among the goal leaders to finish the season without a hat trick. Finishing just 4 behind Bure for the goal scoring title (who got 60) while winning the Selke as an Art Ross runner up to Gretzky is still representative of "better" hockey, imo.

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09-06-2013, 12:05 PM
  #20
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Jagr's.

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09-06-2013, 03:13 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Offensively, yeah (percentage of team offense, scoring titles, and numbers considering the DPE bare that out quite easily), but "overall"? I dunno. When I think of '93/94 vs '98/99 I feel like Jagr scoring points in those days was just an one way offensive race against teams pouring goals in past Barrasso/Skudra and that crap defense, whereas Fedorov's 120 points in his season came through play that made him +48 at the end of the regular season. That year Jagr had nights where he got 5 points and ended up only +1, or 3 points and finished -2, for example (also found a 2 point night where he finished -4!). Fedorov was never minus on a multi-point night. Basically, Jagr having an offensive outburst didn't always pay off for his team in the end, but with Fedorov, it did.

Neither willed their team on to much in the playoffs either season, so it's a matter of voting for Jagr's offensive prowess that year or Fedorov's complete game coupled with elite offense. Not a run-away vote by any stretch, imo. I'd probably even lean towards Fedorov, as Jagr wasn't even at peak goal-scoring prowess that year, almost lucky to top the 40 mark, getting 7 goals in 7 April games leading up to the playoffs (to make 44), and being on of the few among the goal leaders to finish the season without a hat trick. Finishing just 4 behind Bure for the goal scoring title (who got 60) while winning the Selke as an Art Ross runner up to Gretzky is still representative of "better" hockey, imo.
You are basically faulting Jagr for his team's defensive and goaltending deficiencies when you bring up his +/- stats, especially in 1998-99, despite his team's weak defensive team, he still put up a respectable +17. That team had no business making the playoffs, let alone knocking out the 1st Seed Devils (mostly on the strength of Jagr's game) that playoffs. The Penguins were not built to win Cups in the post-Lemieux era, Jagr was pretty much the sole reason (with minor credit going to Straka) that those teams even made the playoffs and Jagr orchestrated back-to-back 1st round upsets in both 1999 and 2000 against the 1st seed Devils and 2nd seed Capitals in respective seasons.

As for only scoring 44 goals, I would think 83 assists (16 more than the runner up) is "better hockey". After all, the leading goals scorer only scored 49 goals. That was the only other season (not including the shortened seasons) (2003-04 being the other) in the last 30 years where the Rocket Richard winner didn't score 50 goals. That tells you how hard it was to score.

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09-06-2013, 03:53 PM
  #22
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You are basically faulting Jagr for his team's defensive and goaltending deficiencies when you bring up his +/- stats, especially in 1998-99, despite his team's weak defensive team, he still put up a respectable +17.
All I'm saying, is when you play 25-30 minutes/night, you're a pretty big part of any team defensive "deficiencies". The part about finishing games in the minus despite putting up lots of points obviously comes from being plenty productive (especially on the powerplay), but only marginally compensating for poorer 5-on-5 defensive play through the majority the game. Absolutely fantastic season offensively though, for sure. Just not clearly better "overall" than Fedorov's season in question, imo, that's all.

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09-06-2013, 04:05 PM
  #23
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BTW, if you look at this http://dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx

You would see the difference in scoring from 1993-94 to 1998-99.

The GPG (goals per game) in 1993-94 was 6.48 while the GPG in 1998-99 was 5.27.

That is a huge difference, more than 1 whole goal scored more in 1993-94 than 1998-99. That means in context, at least offensively speaking Jagr's 1998-99 127 Pts blows away Fedorov's 1993-94 120 Pts.

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09-06-2013, 04:12 PM
  #24
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All I'm saying, is when you play 25-30 minutes/night, you're a pretty big part of any team defensive "deficiencies". The part about finishing games in the minus despite putting up lots of points obviously comes from being plenty productive (especially on the powerplay), but only marginally compensating for poorer 5-on-5 defensive play through the majority the game. Absolutely fantastic season offensively though, for sure. Just not clearly better "overall" than Fedorov's season in question, imo, that's all.
I think you should recheck your stats.

In 1998-99 Jagr scored 82 evenstrength points of his 127 total points. He averaged PPG off 5-on-5 play alone. He was the runaway leader for 5-on-5 scoring.

2nd in evenstrength scoring was Sundin who finished with 67 5-on-5 points.

Jagr completely dominated his competition and Jagr's lower +/- is more attributed to his team's weaker overall defense and goaltending as we all know that Jagr probably has the greatest puck possession game of all time.


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09-06-2013, 04:43 PM
  #25
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Surprising how little respect is given to a season where a center plays defense worthy of the Selke Trophy and scores 120 points. This should be Federov the winner, if not by TKO than at least by clear decision.

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