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Was Lidstrom a generational talent?

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Old
09-02-2013, 10:42 AM
  #126
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You start with... and proceed to:
And your point being?

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09-02-2013, 11:01 AM
  #127
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No he wasn't. I guess I have high standards when it comes to generational players. I think of Morenz, Richard, Beliveau, Howe, Hull, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr. Now of course Crosby. I guess you could sneak Lafleur or Esposito in there as well since there was a gap between Orr and Gretzky (and Esposito winning 4 straight scoring titles doesn't hurt his cause). But if I wouldn't put Bourque as a generational talent (and he's close) I certainly won't with Lidstrom.

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09-02-2013, 11:06 AM
  #128
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No he wasn't. I guess I have high standards when it comes to generational players. I think of Morenz, Richard, Beliveau, Howe, Hull, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr. Now of course Crosby. I guess you could sneak Lafleur or Esposito in there as well since there was a gap between Orr and Gretzky (and Esposito winning 4 straight scoring titles doesn't hurt his cause). But if I wouldn't put Bourque as a generational talent (and he's close) I certainly won't with Lidstrom.
Dominik Hasek?

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09-02-2013, 11:29 AM
  #129
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How is Jagr a generational talent, but not Lidstrom?

I'm also blown away to see people saying Larry Murphy, Al MacInnis, and Scott Neidermayer are/were on Lidstrom's level.

Guess what they all have in common?

I don't think there's much debate that Lidstrom was the best defensive defenseman of his generation(maybe there is, I don't know), but take a look at his offensive numbers to go along with it.

From the first full season after the lockout, 95/96 and 10/11, 16 seasons, Lidstrom has been top five in defenseman scoring all but three of those seasons, and only ever been out of the top 10 once. If I'm not mistaken he was a top three scorer in 12 of those seasons, and then a fifth, sixth, ninth, and 22nd.

Only player in the top 10 not to have played in the 80s high scoring era as well.

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09-02-2013, 11:43 AM
  #130
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A generation is 20 or so years. Was he the best Defensman over the course of 20 years. Simple answer yes.

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09-02-2013, 11:44 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Huge Red Wings fan.
Niklas Lidstrom is the most overrated player on HFboards.

Red Wings defensemen have been protected by the best group of centers the NHL has seen for the last 25 years.

Lidstrom's Norris Trophies are more about Norris Trophy voters sucking at their job.

Seeing people rank Lidstrom with Gretzky and Orr is an absolute joke. For 10 years Gretzky was the best or 2nd best player in the game. Orr, for practically his entire career, was the best player in the game.

Was Lidstrom ever clearly the best player in hockey? Maybe in or around 2002.

The Red Wings franchise protects its aging defensemen.

Fetisov. Rouse. Macoun. Murphy, Duchesne. Wooley. Chelios. Schneider. Rafalski.

It's rare that you ever see an established Wings' defenseman leave Detroit and suddenly become a much better player. (Maybe Aaron Ward? Maybeeeee.)

Conversely, many defensemen come to Detroit and benefit from a team that 1) is usually on the attack b) backchecks extremely c) plays a system that allows defensemen to get more mileage out of their body.

I don't even think Lidstrom was the best defensemen in Detroit. Konstantinov was superior in every element of the game -- except, perhaps, the powerplay, where Vladdie didn't see a ton of time.

Just look at the even strength production numbers. Look at Vladdie's incredible hitting, his ridiculous end-to-end rushes, his fierce hitting, great defense and unbelievable competitive spirit.

Lidstrom and Bourque are similar to me and I'd rank them as about equal. I'd put Larry Robinson ahead of both guys.
I actually HATE doing this TWO TIMES in a day we are under some agreement lmao.

I do not think Lidstrom is one of most overrated players on HFBOARDS. I do not think he is a generational talent cause agree is guys who compare each year and was guys as good or better which you and me both named within 10 of his playing years meaning they played like half of the same years he played and I could not tell a difference.

For those saying this guy won all these trophies they were all in debate people was not any landslides lol. I love lidstrom. I dont know if I take PRONGER over him for any one year honestly cause I like reliable nick. Thats what I called him.

Yet if you give me a full career of KONNY? I take him over every defensemen I have ever seen. He was going to be a generational talent. I have very little doubts of that. He was sick and in a league by himself when he had the accident. He made lidstrom a forgotten asset he was so skilled.

Vladimir Konstantinov, known also as "Vladdie" and "Vlad The Impaler" (for his vicious hits), was drafted 221st overall in the 1989 NHL Entry Draft by the Detroit Red Wings, after impressing a Red Wings scout at the 1987 World Junior Championships, where a brawl broke out in the USSR/Canada game. Scout Neil Smith remembers, "He was the only one of the Russians who fought back." Probably the most notable aspect of his hockey career was his aggressive style, specializing in getting opponents off their game. "For my game," he explained, "I don’t need to score the goal. I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals." Konstantinov's aggressive style of play also earned him the nickname "Vladinator".
He was also part of the unit known as "The Russian Five," which consisted of him and fellow defensemen Viacheslav Fetisov, and forwards Igor Larionov, Sergei Fedorov, and Vyacheslav Kozlov.
Konstantinov earned the NHL Plus/Minus Award in 1995–96, with a plus/minus difference of +60. The +60 has been the highest rating a player has finished with in the past 20 seasons, since Wayne Gretzky finished with a +70 in the 1986–87 NHL season.
In 1996–97, Konstantinov helped his team to win the Stanley Cup against the Philadelphia Flyers. Flyers coach Terry Murray expected that his top line of center Eric Lindros, left winger John LeClair and right winger Mikael Renberg, known as the "Legion of Doom" for its scoring and toughness, would be facing Konstantinov. However Red Wings coach Scotty Bowman surprised the Flyers by instead opting for the finesse-oriented defense pairing of Nicklas Lidstrom and Larry Murphy to neutralize the Lindros line's forechecking.[1] In that same year, Konstantinov was runner-up to Brian Leetch for the Norris Trophy, given to the league's best defenseman. This would turn out to be Konstantinov's final season.


I have no doubts Vladdy could have scored but he had it in mindset to shut down the other teams. 5 on 5 he is the best player ive ever watched defensively. He hit people so hard their moms felt it in other cities I mean this.

Would Vladdy be a generational talent? We got to see him for six years and in my lifetime of watching 35 years of hockey he is the guy I think was probably best player ive ever seen. He had it all is another reason why dont put this generational term to reliable nick.

I also am confused as hell over this generational player generational talent GARBAGE lol.

Is no such thing. 1st you have Generational talent/player than 2nd you have "elite all time great player/talent" Than you have the next level 3rd the guys who will make the hall of fame but not automatic first timers.

Is a handful of guys in the 1st level

Is a ton of guys in the second area.

Is way more in the third level.

Lidstrom is second level. He is not the first level. He is debate wise in top 10 all time defensemen but is no way in my opinion lifelong wings fan head and shoulders above anyone from 2-8. That is not the case so he is not Generational.


I also dont agree that a guy has to be a gretsky or crosby and be known right off the bat to be considered generational. I think is based on him being head and shoulders above his level of competition for a number of years to be that golden high plateau and everyone wanting to label more to list is kinda sad

Tom Brady has to be considered generational if he had won those two games against NY I think is zero debate. Yet he wasnt known except from Michigan when he came to NFL. I thought he was actually the second best Michigan QB while he was there lol. Other guy busted out in both football and baseball lol.

Even though Peyton might have some years of comparable numbers Tom won more which for a quarterback really matters.

Lidstrom has four cups in 20 years. If he had won 8 or 11 as the captain? I would put him as generational. If he had dominated in any of the 7 years like half of them where no one is close in norris voting or their isnt an argument I would put him as generational.


The only thing Lidstrom did was he was one of smartest players. He stick checked incredibly well. He was never out of position and almost impossible to get past.

He was always ranked with league leaders but wasnt way above them and running away from them.

He didnt hit people which I consider important. He didnt block all that many shots.

He was the best have ever seen at the blue line in causing a problem slowing down the opponent etc..

Yet that doesnt make someone generational. Is no one like him today really at all. With what he was best at. Is plenty though that compare still to him in points production plus minus etc.. Right now is plenty of players you put in his better years who compete with him for the Norris.

Case in point you take his last norris and look at 5-5 750 minutes played like half a season and he is ranked 69th stat wise in nhl for points per 60 minutes average. Brian Rafalski is actually number one his teammate. Matt Carle is number two.
Lidstrom scored 15 points 5 on 5 and had a plus minus of -2 for the year and had 62 points.

This should be enough for EVERYONE to realize the voting for the NORRIS is a true joke. THAT IS GENERATIONAL? That is the highest level of talent of its time in hockey?

I am sorry I have loved Lidstrom forever but honestly was not over 2 years when I really thought he would win the norris. Was always a huge question.

I dont know why people want to add to the greatest ever.

Is one about Teemu Selanne up also about is he generational talent.

I have a different structure I guess but to me is a joke. I get a lot of people are fascinated by the NORRIS Trophy the problem is the voting is really garbage for a number of years. Is about top point men and the overall stats are totally overlooked lately it actually makes me sad.

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09-02-2013, 12:01 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
No he wasn't. I guess I have high standards when it comes to generational players. I think of Morenz, Richard, Beliveau, Howe, Hull, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr. Now of course Crosby. I guess you could sneak Lafleur or Esposito in there as well since there was a gap between Orr and Gretzky (and Esposito winning 4 straight scoring titles doesn't hurt his cause). But if I wouldn't put Bourque as a generational talent (and he's close) I certainly won't with Lidstrom.
So basically Orr and a bunch of forwards?

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09-02-2013, 12:29 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So basically Orr and a bunch of forwards?
I will answer yes. Orr was 1.393 points per game lidstrom 0.73ppg 450 plus minus and if put him against bourque 0.98ppg and 528 plus minus potvin 0.992ppg and 460 plus minus robinson 0.692 ppg and 730 plus minus he is not above any of them really overall and if you look at his 5-5 stats over his norris wins its not that good to be honest. I cant find all the stats but had them each time he was candidate for Norris and is why I wondered if he would win.

His points per game were better in the other norris wins except that last one on five on five but was 10 guys comparable. He has had 4 years of plus minus 40 three of those years he won the norris.

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09-02-2013, 12:41 PM
  #134
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I was referring more to the media narrative rather than the scoring race itself. Maybe I'm just remembering things a bit poorly, but it felt like when that season started the media were itching to anoint Crosby as the best player in the NHL as soon as possible. THN ranked him 1st on the Top 50 list, didn't they?

Thanks for the links overpass.
I think he was ranked in the top 5 but I think Crosby being ranked 1st by THN was in 2007-08 the season after he won his lone Art Ross.

Edit. Going into the 2006-07 season it was Kipprisuff 1st, Pronger 2nd (not sure why he was ranked so high) and Jagr 3rd, Crosby was 6th.


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09-02-2013, 12:46 PM
  #135
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I think he was ranked in the top 5 but I think Crosby being ranked 1st by THN was in 2007-08 the season after he won his lone Art Ross.
6th, I believe. Kiprusoff, Pronger, Jagr, Thornton, Ovechkin.

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09-02-2013, 12:56 PM
  #136
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"generational talent" is pure gibberish.

if you asking is he is in the all time top tier, the answer is no. he is on the second tier...

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09-02-2013, 01:18 PM
  #137
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For those saying this guy won all these trophies they were all in debate people was not any landslides lol.
I'm not going through that entire wall of text because I don't have the time, but this is blatantly false and even a cursory glance at the Norris trophy voting would show that. For instance, what debate was there in 2007-08, one of the biggest landslide wins in NHL history?

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09-02-2013, 01:33 PM
  #138
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Depends where the line for "generational" is. If someone were to consider Bourque a "generational" talent, then you'd probably think the same about Lidstrom. If they were to draw the line a bit closer to Orr, then he's not.

Myself, I'd lean toward yes.

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09-02-2013, 05:49 PM
  #139
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So basically Orr and a bunch of forwards?
I don't really say it that way, but it sort of is. If you want to say who the best player was for each generation then it pretty much is that way. Harvey isn't even in there because you'd have taken Howe over Harvey. No defenseman was as good as Gretzky or Lemieux when they played. Lafleur was kind of on his own too in that Orr to Gretzky gap. Then there's Jagr who had that title for a few years at least up until 2001. Post 2005 it's Crosby. I guess the gap not mentioned is that one between around 2001-'04. You could pick a few guys. Forsberg, Sakic, Lidstrom, Brodeur, even Iginla. All great players, none I would say were good enough at that time to be generational talents though.


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Dominik Hasek?
Possibly him too. Harder to put goalies into this equation though. But if you have to pick a modern goalie you can't ignore his prime.

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09-02-2013, 06:19 PM
  #140
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Did you see what Lidstrom did to Lindros and the Legion of Doom in the '97 finals? What about that doesn't scream DOMINATION to you?
Kind of like what Scott Stevens did to Lindstrom's Wings in the '95 finals?

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09-02-2013, 06:50 PM
  #141
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don't think he's a generational talent since he wasn't drafted 1OA or close to that. he was however a generational player.
My feelings exactly, a generational talent is a guy who scouts are talking about at 14 and just keeps looking and getting better and makes an immediate splash in the NHL.

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09-02-2013, 06:58 PM
  #142
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"generational talent" is pure gibberish.

if you asking is he is in the all time top tier, the answer is no. he is on the second tier...
does your 1st tier of Dmen have more than 1 hand full of players on it?

I agree that he isn't a generational talent, very few players are, Orr and Potvin on the back end are the only that come to mind to me and forwards like Wayne, Mario and Sid are obvious, probably OA and maybe Malkin too for current guys.

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09-02-2013, 07:15 PM
  #143
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Depends where the line for "generational" is. If someone were to consider Bourque a "generational" talent, then you'd probably think the same about Lidstrom. If they were to draw the line a bit closer to Orr, then he's not.

Myself, I'd lean toward yes.
Pretty much this. Bourque is a half step above Lidstrom, but both are clearly a step (or several steps) behind Orr. There's been more than one generation, so I'm inclined to think there's more than one generational defender.

Orr for the 60s and 70s, Bourque for the 80s and 90s, Lidstrom for the late 90s and 00s.

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09-02-2013, 08:38 PM
  #144
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Kind of like what Scott Stevens did to Lindstrom's Wings in the '95 finals?
Minor point (and forgivable if you were posting this from a smartphone), but is it really that hard to spell a player's name correctly when the spelling is entirely phonetic? If I was making some kind of negative or ambivalent comment about Scott Stevens, and spelled his name Scott Stenvens, I would expect far less people to take whatever I point I was trying to make seriously.

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09-02-2013, 08:54 PM
  #145
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Minor point (and forgivable if you were posting this from a smartphone), but is it really that hard to spell a player's name correctly when the spelling is entirely phonetic? If I was making some kind of negative or ambivalent comment about Scott Stevens, and spelled his name Scott Stenvens, I would expect far less people to take whatever I point I was trying to make seriously.
Too many I's.

Can't take this seriously.

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09-02-2013, 09:02 PM
  #146
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Too many I's.

Can't take this seriously.
Considering how often I post on here when I'm drunk (such as right now), I'm surprised I don't make more mistakes. Thankfully Chrome takes care of most of them for me.

And I wasn't trying to pick on you, but the "Lindstrom" mistake is one of the most gear-grinding on here. If people constantly posted "Bournque", I imagine you'd feel similarly.

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09-02-2013, 09:12 PM
  #147
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Considering how often I post on here when I'm drunk (such as right now), I'm surprised I don't make more mistakes. Thankfully Chrome takes care of most of them for me.

And I wasn't trying to pick on you, but the "Lindstrom" mistake is one of the most gear-grinding on here. If people constantly posted "Bournque", I imagine you'd feel similarly.
I'm old. And getting older.

I've spelled Lidstrom's name correctly many, many times. I'm not a novice. Just a slip of the trembling fingers.

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09-02-2013, 09:18 PM
  #148
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I'm old. And getting older.

I've spelled Lidstrom's name correctly many, many times. I'm not a novice. Just a slip of the trembling fingers.
Fair enough. I write "bizzarre" too many times to count, but the red line underneath usually catches my eye before submitting.

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09-02-2013, 09:20 PM
  #149
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Yes, but that would mean there were really only three generational talents in the history of the game.

I think Howe, Crosby, Hasek, Hull, Richard, and Harvey were/are all generational talents, even though they're not on Gretzky/Orr/Mario's level. Lidstrom is right on the cusp. He was never THAT much better than his pears but he was still the best, for quite a long period of time. He's right there with Bourque, IMO. I could either way, especially since "generational talent" is such a nebulous term.
I agree. A generation may be so blessed that there appear two or even three players who are so superb they are termed generational talents. Wayne Gretzky, Ray Bourque and Mario Lemieux had overlapping careers, for example.

One has to accommodate the standards of the particular era--where the player stood in regard to his contemporaries. One should also pay some attention to the way the player was regarded by his contemporaries--by fellow players, the media and the fans.

Howie Morenz, selected player of the half century in 1950 by media representatives, surely was a generational talent although this board does not put him among the very top players of all-time. He was regarded during his career as the Babe Ruth of hockey. Eddie Shore was also a generational talent, although his career overlapped with Morenz's. So were Maurice Richard, Doug Harvey, Jean Beliveau and Bobby Hull although their careers overlapped with Howe's and with each other's.

Anyone able to win seven Norris trophies gets my nod as a generational talent, and that's that for Nicklas Lidstrom. (By the way, I think Harvey, in his positional sense, his calmness under pressure, his clever skating, his movement with the puck and his wonderful passing, showed as much intelligence as Lidstrom.) You don't get a player like that every generation. Bourque was a generational talent, too.

Those who restrict that label to the so-called Big Four have a different definition of generational talent than I do. For one thing, they ignore the first 33 years of the NHL's existence and anything before the NHL came into existence. Once in a lifetime isn't even an accurate standard either because all the Big Four played in my lifetime. (I was born in September, 1943, at the beginning of Maurice Richard's second NHL season and seven years before Gordie Howe began to make his mark.)

A generational talent for me is one who stands out from his contemporaries by demonstrating through consistent performance that he is the best, or one of the two or three very best, players of his era. Perhaps my standard for generational talent is a player who turned in outstanding performances consistently for at least 10 years that establish he is the best, or one of the two or three best, over a 15-year or 20-year period. I'm willing, of course, to make an exception for an exceptional talent like Bobby Orr. It's too early to tell if any of the younger stars of today are generational talents.

Beliveau was recognized as a generational talent from the moment he took the ice in Canadiens colors. For about six or seven years--1954 to 1961--he was regarded as the game's very best, even better than Howe. He put centers back on the map as leading scorers after wingers had dominated for quite a long time. He was a dual threat because he could both score goals and set them up in prodigious fashion. Gone were the days when first all-star team centers scored only 15 or 22 goals in a 70-game season (as the Canadiens' Elmer Lach and Kenny Mosdell did in the early 1950s). He was perhaps the first star player to combine huge size (for the era) with agility and grace on the ice.

How one could say that Hull, as another example, was not a generational talent because Howe and Beliveau played at the same time as he did is beyond me. For a decade, Hull was the NHL's biggest star, taking over from the retired Richard the informal title of the game's greatest goalscorer. He consistently dazzled crowds with his prowess--his skating speed, his physical power, his tremendous shot. He was, in a word, amazing. There was no one like him. For a decade, he was regarded as hockey's best player. He was truly a generational talent, and he, too, was viewed as such from the moment he took the ice for the Black Hawks.

This message is not intended to mention every player I consider a generational talent. I've left out goaltenders, for one thing. So no gripes, please, if I did not mention certain players.


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09-02-2013, 09:24 PM
  #150
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Fair enough. I write "bizzarre" too many times to count, but the red line underneath usually catches my eye before submitting.
No problem.

By the way, my point wasn't actually a slap at Lidstrom. More of a slap at the idea that one player is solely responsible for shutting down another player or team.

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