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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Generational players, talents

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Old
09-04-2013, 12:42 AM
  #51
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Esposito led the NHL in assists 3 times, recorded over 75 assists in a season 5 times, led the NHL in points 5 times, and led it in goals for 6 consecutive seasons including 1 of 70, 3 of 60, and 1 of 50. I'm sorry, but there's no way a player could do that will being strictly a "goal suck", Orr or no Orr. This isn't Bernie Nicholls we are talking about here.
No maybe Phil isn't Bernie Nicholls but he is closer to Bernie than he is to Bobby.

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09-04-2013, 01:02 AM
  #52
TheDevilMadeMe
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Not in my book Mr.Bonvie. Your Mr. Centipede there far too slow for my liking, and never mind the character issues.
He might have been slow, but he was easily the most dangerous offensive player from either team in 1972, whether you go by actual scoring, or scoring chances created.

Not arguing that the man didn't/doesn't have issues.


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09-04-2013, 02:14 AM
  #53
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IMO, we should separate generational TALENT and generational PLAYER

generational TALENT - young boy, that is not in NHL, his playground is one of the top junior or maybe Europe senior league. This player shows great skills, he simply dominate the junior league as nobody in 20 years (one generation).
Lemieux and Gretzky are great examples of this. And even Lindros and Crosby.

generational PLAYER - that is someone, who simply dominate the NHL. Like Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr did before.
So, No Lindros and no Crosby, no Oveckin. At least now, lets wait another 10 years.

That means :
- generational TALENT can grow to generational PLAYER
- generational TALENT can only be "good" NHL player - good example is Pat LaFontaine
- generational PLAYER can be found later. Best example - Nicklas Lidstrom

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09-04-2013, 10:32 AM
  #54
Killion
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
He might have been slow, but he was easily the most dangerous offensive player from either team in 1972, whether you go by actual scoring, or scoring chances created.

Not arguing that the man didn't/doesn't have issues.
... I take pot shots at him, but ya, tremendously talented player. Goalies worst nightmare. Like the cab of a Mack truck parked on your doorstep. The abuse he took from Defenceman without absolutely losing it stifled, little wonder he developed other eccentricities... or shall we say peculiarities.

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09-04-2013, 12:30 PM
  #55
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by alko View Post
IMO, we should separate generational TALENT and generational PLAYER

generational TALENT - young boy, that is not in NHL, his playground is one of the top junior or maybe Europe senior league. This player shows great skills, he simply dominate the junior league as nobody in 20 years (one generation).
Lemieux and Gretzky are great examples of this. And even Lindros and Crosby.

generational PLAYER - that is someone, who simply dominate the NHL. Like Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr did before.
So, No Lindros and no Crosby, no Oveckin. At least now, lets wait another 10 years.

That means :
- generational TALENT can grow to generational PLAYER
- generational TALENT can only be "good" NHL player - good example is Pat LaFontaine
- generational PLAYER can be found later. Best example - Nicklas Lidstrom
I really like this distinctions.

I also like using "multi-generational player" for someone like Gretzky and "generational player" for someone like Lidstrom. Lindros? Generational talent, not player. Lidstrom? Generational player, not talent.

Works for me.

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09-04-2013, 01:50 PM
  #56
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I rank Fedorov's peak above any European player not named "Dominic." Hart, Selke, and 2nd in scoring is phenomenal and is above both Jagr and Lids.

Can anyone explain to me how exactly did Gretzky "revolutionize the game"? I thought what he did was impossible to imitate, let alone replicate.

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09-04-2013, 01:55 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I rank Fedorov's peak above any European player not named "Dominic." Hart, Selke, and 2nd in scoring is phenomenal and is above both Jagr and Lids.

Can anyone explain to me how exactly did Gretzky "revolutionize the game"? I thought what he did was impossible to imitate, let alone replicate.
I don't think it was Gretzky in particular, so much as the Edmonton Oilers in general playing a style that Glen Sather thought would compliment Gretzky. They are considered as the first NHL team to fully integrate the European East-West game into the traditional North American game.

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09-04-2013, 03:01 PM
  #58
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Espo is indeed, the Rodney Dangerfield of hockey superstars.

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09-04-2013, 03:04 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Can anyone explain to me how exactly did Gretzky "revolutionize the game"? I thought what he did was impossible to imitate, let alone replicate.
Yeah, I agree with you. No one has come along that could perceive and exploit the weaknesses of other players/teams like Gretzky. He was a step ahead of everyone all the time.

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09-04-2013, 03:07 PM
  #60
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Yeah, I agree with you. No one has come along that could perceive and exploit the weaknesses of other players/teams like Gretzky. He was a step ahead of everyone all the time.
By the same token though, while the Oilers were constructed to take advantage of his abilities, no one can copy Gretzky's game.

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09-04-2013, 03:26 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Can anyone explain to me how exactly did Gretzky "revolutionize the game"?
Well, they created the Gretzky Rule & moved the goal line & nets out by 3', taking away valuable real estate out front of the net & giving more space to the cycle game in the corners, behind the goalie. Id say that was fairly revolutionary and not something Im really all that pleased about to be honest. Yes I love the wide open European style of play, Id just prefer to see it evolving more in front of the net than from behind it, from the corners.

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Old
09-04-2013, 05:33 PM
  #62
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I rank Fedorov's peak above any European player not named "Dominic." Hart, Selke, and 2nd in scoring is phenomenal and is above both Jagr and Lids.

Can anyone explain to me how exactly did Gretzky "revolutionize the game"? I thought what he did was impossible to imitate, let alone replicate.
I guess if you consider peak one season, you have a point.

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09-04-2013, 06:17 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I guess if you consider peak one season, you have a point.
Again though, is Fedorov's peak season really that much better than Jagr's?

I mean Jagr was so good in 1998-99 that he even beat out Hasek for the Hart and 1998-99 happened to be Hasek's peak season as well.

I would say in the manner Jagr dominated his peers in 1998-99, it is hard to vote against.

I will admit though that Fedorov's 1993-94 season is one for the record books and ranks in my top 10 best seasons of the last 20 years.

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Old
09-04-2013, 06:52 PM
  #64
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Yeah count me in the Jagr's 1999 season was better than Fedorov's 1994. Add in Jagr's surrounding seasons and his Peak/prime is way more impressive.

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09-04-2013, 10:00 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I rank Fedorov's peak above any European player not named "Dominic." Hart, Selke, and 2nd in scoring is phenomenal and is above both Jagr and Lids.

Can anyone explain to me how exactly did Gretzky "revolutionize the game"? I thought what he did was impossible to imitate, let alone replicate.
As with the last couple, I disagree that it was better than Jagr's best. Plus Jagr had a lot of other great seasons too.

As for Gretzky, as others have stated Gretzky and the Oilers were responsible for rule changes and changed the way hockey was played for the better part of a decade. They showed that Offence could win games AND championships.

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09-04-2013, 11:26 PM
  #66
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I am also with the last posters on this one. Jagr's peak was better than Fedorov's. Not by a mile, but by a clear gap.

How close was Foppa on Fedorov's Hart year on his best?

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09-05-2013, 05:23 PM
  #67
Fred Taylor
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I am also with the last posters on this one. Jagr's peak was better than Fedorov's. Not by a mile, but by a clear gap.

How close was Foppa on Fedorov's Hart year on his best?
Fedorov's 94 regular season was a bit better than any regular season Forsberg had, but if you include 3-5 more seasons, plus playoffs, it's Forsberg easily.

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09-05-2013, 08:40 PM
  #68
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I am also with the last posters on this one. Jagr's peak was better than Fedorov's. Not by a mile, but by a clear gap.
No it wasn't. Jagr barely played any defense at all. Fed's Hart / Selke easily overpowers Jardo.

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09-05-2013, 08:48 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
No it wasn't. Jagr barely played any defense at all. Fed's Hart / Selke easily overpowers Jardo.
Says the guy with the Fedorov avatar.

I think we should do a Poll for this.

BTW where the real indicator is of who's play was more impressive and more important is by looking at their impacts they had on their respective teams.

In 1993-94 when Fedorov scored 120 Pts, his team scored a total of 356 goals. That means Fedorov had a hand in 34% of his teams' goals.

In 1998-99 when Jagr scored 127 Pts, his team scored a total of 242 goals. That means Jagr had a hand in 52% of his teams' goals.

Also what's worthy to note is that Jagr's 1998-99 adjusted is 167 Pts and is top 20 all-time in the best adjusted seasons while Fedorov doesn't even show up in the top 50 for that said 1993-94 season.


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09-05-2013, 11:44 PM
  #70
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Fedorov's 94 regular season was a bit better than any regular season Forsberg had, but if you include 3-5 more seasons, plus playoffs, it's Forsberg easily.
Yeah, Feds basically had the one super-elite season and one more with great/elite level. Feds was great in the playoffs too, but he never dominated like Forsberg did.

Forsberg is the better player and should be ranked higher than Feds. But the difference in peak is not huge. As you said, Feds has the edge there. But then again, most people lose out on Fedorov when talking about peak season. But Jagr is not one of them.

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09-06-2013, 01:28 AM
  #71
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... Indeed. And nice backhander. I'm reading some confusion here with various Members not quite sure what the definition might be between Generational Talents & Generational Players, so heres what were lookin at;

1A. Generational Talents = players who through innovation & skill, talent, creativity, re-defined how a position was played which then affected the way the game itself was played. These players are transcendent & would include Orr & Gretzky. Personal success as well as team success would be included in that criteria.

1B; Generational Players = guys like Cyclone Taylor, Conacher, Frankie Brimsek, Lumley, Jean Beliveau & Gordie Howe, Dryden, Mike Bossy, Guy Lafleur, Patrick Roy, Mario, Datsyuk etc....
by your definition, wouldn't Roy be a "Generational Talent?" 'splain yourself.

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09-06-2013, 02:40 AM
  #72
Morgoth Bauglir
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by your definition, wouldn't Roy be a "Generational Talent?" 'splain yourself.
By that definition? Not sure. But I think Plante is a lock with that criteria.

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09-06-2013, 12:05 PM
  #73
Killion
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by your definition, wouldn't Roy be a "Generational Talent?" 'splain yourself.
... I dont think Patrick Roy "re-defined" the way the position was played though you could argue that "yes, he in fact did" with his hybrid BF style to some degree. However his contemporaries of the day were doing much the same, Im not inclined to place him into the realms of the transcendent in altering the way in which the position and or game was played. Brilliant goaltender, top of his generation ergo "Generational Player" like Ken Dryden, Bernie Parent, Brodeur and though he does get a bad rap Id put Luongo in that category as well, amongst others....

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09-06-2013, 02:31 PM
  #74
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Roy popularized the BF style, but perhaps even more significantly redesigned his pads to more effectively play that style. Roy was the spark for the goaltending revolution of the 90s. Now all goalies play a version of the butterfly & wear Patrick Roy pads. His success in the NHL prompted minor & junior coaches to start training big youngsters as goaltenders, & to start training them in butterfly style. I don't think his impact on hockey should be underestimated.

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09-06-2013, 04:22 PM
  #75
Killion
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Roy popularized the BF style, but perhaps even more significantly redesigned his pads to more effectively play that style. Roy was the spark for the goaltending revolution of the 90s. Now all goalies play a version of the butterfly & wear Patrick Roy pads. His success in the NHL prompted minor & junior coaches to start training big youngsters as goaltenders, & to start training them in butterfly style. I don't think his impact on hockey should be underestimated.
Not underestimating his impact as a player & trailblazer to some extent, but the BF had been around a lot longer than Patrick Roy, in fact before he was even born as you know. It was being used widely as a save technique or "save selection", wasnt a full time "style" until much later in the 80's beyond a few with that lineage between Glenn Hall to the likes of Roger Crozier & Tony Esposito on down the line. Size had become a factor in the 70's as players themselves were larger, the smaller goalies wilting under the constant barrage of impact, unable to clear their creases properly, Ken Dryden the first truly brilliant "big" goalie of the modern era, followed by the likes of Hextall & Snow etc, Patrick Roy included. The Butterfly for Roy was still very much a save selection that he employed depending on circumstance early in his career and yes, then morphing into relying upon on it more & more as the game out front had changed, most effective defense against it being the BF. However, he was not alone in this development, as it had been and was being deployed by his contemporaries (he just happened to be the best at it) and was being copied, taught at the elite amateur & Jr. levels as well, most notably in Quebec.

Which brings us to your next claim that he revolutionized equipment design & I suppose manufacturing. Theres a family of Goaltenders in the province of Quebec called the Lefevres. Several generations of amateur players, the father Michel began making masks over 50yrs ago, his son Patrick following suit. They also made their own arm & chest protectors, eventually going full hog making pads starting in about 1984. Re-designing them, using synthetic leathers & high density foams, used at first by the youngest generation of Lefevres, spreading out to include a number of goalies playing Midget & Jr in PQ including Potvin & Thibault etc. At the NHL level, JS Giguere and in conjunction with goaltending coach Francois Allaire, Patrick Roy began using them as well. The Lefevre's began working with Koho around 94, moved on to Reebok, and most recently helped re-design CCM's re-entry into the goalie pad sector with Carey Price the first NHL goalie to unveil the new line. So beyond Patrick Roy being the preeminent talent of the day who wore & sure had some in-put into design features, hardly the seminal transcendent player in the evolution of the BF style & equipment advances that to my mind would elevate him to the same level as Jacques Plante. An equally brilliant goalie absolutely, but not one who like Plante actually introduced new techniques & strategies, save selections, playing the puck well outside of the crease, acting as a 3rd defenceman & so on & so forth.

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