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Old
09-18-2013, 01:50 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Smid, Robidas, Orpik, Polak, Emelin, Seidenberg
Robidas and Polak are both right shots so I don't see how they help Oates' top 4 situation.

Go float a Smid, Emelin, or Seidenberg to the Caps deal on their teams' boards and let us know what you are able to work out please. Something tells me you are not going to like the cost but I could be wrong.

Pretty much every Pens fan I know said Orpik showed he'd lost a couple of steps last season and clearly was on the decline. He's a UFA after this season most likely though so maybe you will get your wish there.

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09-18-2013, 02:13 PM
  #227
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Its been long bandied about that you need a great or hot goalie to win a cup. Chicago disproved that at least once.

The point is that there are several ways to skin a cat. Having a more physical team enhances your chances of winning. Having enough balance on your team is key as well. We really have struggled in the grit department for a while now. This has been said league wide and its no secret.

We have been soft on D especially for a great many years now and seems like everyone is perfectly cool getting softer as long as we get a vet established D who plays positionally sound.
there are many ways, yes. Having a more physical team is a way, but I see no sign that Detroit has been all that physical. The Ducks and Bruins were when they won, but they also were when they were quickly dispatched.

What it comes down to here, though, are two different things.

a. the caps need a bruising top 4 defenseman
b. is john Erskine a top 4 defenseman

you can wholey believe in a. and not at all in b.

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09-18-2013, 02:16 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Both Niemi and Crawford certainly fit into the hot goalie category, and Niemi has backed that up with solid play since leaving.

Being a good team increases your chances of winning, regardless of whether you're physical or not. Adding physical players for the sake of adding physical players doesn't increase your chances of winning, and often does the exact opposite. Look at Toronto for a perfect example. Guys like Komisarek, Phaneuf, Peca, Belak, Gill, Schenn, Orr, Rosehill, and company weren't exactly leading them to deep playoff runs.

I am perfectly cool with getting softer if we get better. Because we'll be better. I'd rather be a winning hockey team than a physical hockey team.
I don't know about that...a hot goalie is Patrick Roy circa 86 (before everyone realized truly how good he was) and Hextall in 87. I don't think Crawford and especially Niemi played all that great.

Toronto has had far greater problems mainly due to the win now philosophy and not being committed to building through the draft. Its not because of adding physical players that they were unsuccessful for so long.

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Your man crush on Erskine clouds your judgement. Position ally he's flawed, and that hurts his overall defensive game. He ALLOWS goals, more than a lot of our dmen. For that reason, he needs his ice time limited.

It's George's fault that we have such a soft defense. That is the problem that needs solving, Bob. Forcing Erskine into a role he is NOT suited only exacerbates the problem, it doesn't solve it. Other than your 25 game sample last year, Erskine has not been the guy to take top 4 minutes.

I know when you love someone, it's hard/impossible to see their flaws. Your adoration toward Big
John, while cute and sweet, clouds your judgement towards the bigger picture....which is it is ALL still George's fault!!!!
Well clearly then Oates and GMGM have a mancrush on Erskine as well right?

Why do you look at the imperfections of his game as opposed to what he does well? I think thats a real "glass is half empty" approach.

In a salary cap era there is a scarcity of resources in terms of cap space. You are not going to be perfect at every position.

He's the best option we have and I believe he can perform the role well enough.

Outside of this past playoffs (when he was hurt I have no doubt) he has played very well when called upon.

Our playoff failures have more to do with our forwards not scoring and our goalies not outplaying the other teams goalies.

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there are many ways, yes. Having a more physical team is a way, but I see no sign that Detroit has been all that physical. The Ducks and Bruins were when they won, but they also were when they were quickly dispatched.

What it comes down to here, though, are two different things.

a. the caps need a bruising top 4 defenseman
b. is john Erskine a top 4 defenseman

you can wholey believe in a. and not at all in b.
c. is John Erskine our best option at #2LD considering the lack of toughness across the roster, limited cap space and the fact that teams don't willingly give away top 4 Dmen who can skate and be physical

Alot of people here act as if there was an easy and obvious solution to the problem of our D this past offseason or even right now.

I don't think anyone on HFboards has been harping on the D more than I since I first joined so I get that we need improvement.


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Old
09-18-2013, 02:29 PM
  #229
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Our playoff failures have more to do with our forwards not scoring and our goalies not outplaying the other teams goalies.
One of two years where we actually had a real shot, we were done in by a horrible defense. Varlamov was playing out of his mind and the forwards were scoring at will. We couldn't clear the zone at all against Pittsburgh.

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09-18-2013, 02:32 PM
  #230
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One of two years where we actually had a real shot, we were done in by a horrible defense. Varlamov was playing out of his mind and the forwards were scoring at will. We couldn't clear the zone at all against Pittsburgh.
Yeah our D was bad that year. Varlamov was good...until game 7 where he was downright awful.

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09-18-2013, 02:35 PM
  #231
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Yeah our D was bad that year. Varlamov was good...until game 7 where he was downright awful.
There never should have been a game 7.

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09-18-2013, 04:11 PM
  #232
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Erskine 'hators' aren't valuing skating/puckmoving over toughness. They're valuing playing consistently good defense over not. If Erskine's hockey sense could compensate for his lack of mobility (as it did for guy's like Pronger and Hatcher in the past) there'd be no issue with Erskine in the top 4.

Erskine gets caught chasing (and can't catch up due to his slowness afoot) too often. That's the issue. It limits how much he can assert his physicality/toughness. That's why people want his ice time limited (as the 3LD). There's certain types of opposing forwards he just can't handle, and his matchups need to be controlled as much as possible.

I'd be thrilled with a Chris Phillips, Tim Gleason, Francois Beauchemin, or Andrew Ference as the 2LD. None of them are lacking in toughness.
I've been hoping for Calgary's Giordano for awhile. Their team is clearly in rebuild mode, so they should have some willingness to sell, though I'm sure the price will be high. I'm hoping their new goalie fails and Neuvy bounces back strong this year and they're somehow interested in a package involving him but either way, it's not like the Caps don't have the pieces to make a trade happen. They'd have to move some salary, but his contract is very reasonably priced, admittedly driving up his value. He's not a perfect player and has struggled some recently but he'd be a major upgrade and has the all around game, toughness included.


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09-18-2013, 04:13 PM
  #233
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Prior to Grabovski, I put out an Orlov + 1st for Giordano proposal that got pretty good support (though many wanted Bowey instead, which I'm fine with). Now the cap situation doesn't work, but otherwise I'd still do it.

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09-18-2013, 04:34 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Prior to Grabovski, I put out an Orlov + 1st for Giordano proposal that got pretty good support (though many wanted Bowey instead, which I'm fine with). Now the cap situation doesn't work, but otherwise I'd still do it.
Yeah, that was another reason I figured moving Neuvy would make sense- salary that is. They could always throw in Chimera, in addition to say Orlov/Bowey; that would more than equal Giordano's crazy low 4.02 mil cap hit (for the next 3 seasons). His contract is so nice its actually wasted on a team like them since they have tons of space and no need to do anything other than rebuild right now; it's very likely that by the time they're ready to push for the playoffs again he'll be up for a new contract.

I guess the cap situation changes if they keep Wilson though.


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Old
09-18-2013, 10:39 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
c. is John Erskine our best option at #2LD considering the lack of toughness across the roster, limited cap space and the fact that teams don't willingly give away top 4 Dmen who can skate and be physical

Alot of people here act as if there was an easy and obvious solution to the problem of our D this past offseason or even right now.

I don't think anyone on HFboards has been harping on the D more than I since I first joined so I get that we need improvement.
I agree there are many that think the only reasons that the caps don't hve a legit 3/4 left d is because McPhee is either blind or incompetent or both.

that doesn't wash away that Erskine is a 5d and a fill in 4d on his better days. he's just not a 4d and his head busting skills don't make him any better than the 5d that he is.

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09-18-2013, 11:38 PM
  #236
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Guys like Scuderi & Seidenberg are more smothering than physical. I'll take smothering over physical any day of the week in today's game because that's ultimately how forwards get shut down. That's rarely one player's job but the entire team needs to have a certain level of closing ability. You can't do it by heart and intimidation alone, you've got to be able to keep up, close gaps and seal off. The weaker mobility of Erskine & Oleksy impact their fundamental defensive ability and what you get is fairly hit-or-miss (pardon the pun) in fulfilling their basic assignment. Physicality for its own sake is frivolous.
There are 2 kinds of physicality. Lets use ex-Caps to illustrate the point, shall we?

First we have the punishing hitters -- like Scott Stevens.
Second we the smothering strongmen like Rod Langway.

Tremendous dmen, stud players. If you are an old school Caps fan, you understand each player, so I don't need to give details. If you aren't, YouTube them both.

Bob Rouse like the Stevens player. He doesn't get as excited by the Langway player.

Bob both are great assets in a dman.

Unfortunately, we don have either (but we could, in Alzner....if he got a lot stronger, a Langway type). Problem is, Langway's game has been neutralized a little bit by the rules changes. However, Rod would have adapted.

Anyway, I digress. Either type player is great.

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09-18-2013, 11:48 PM
  #237
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there are many ways, yes. Having a more physical team is a way, but I see no sign that Detroit has been all that physical. The Ducks and Bruins were when they won, but they also were when they were quickly dispatched.

What it comes down to here, though, are two different things.

a. the caps need a bruising top 4 defenseman
b. is john Erskine a top 4 defenseman

you can wholey believe in a. and not at all in b.
Yes. Tex hit it on the head.

Frankly, I'd like both. Bruising top 4 dman AND John Erskine on bottom pair. Best of both worlds.

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09-19-2013, 12:57 PM
  #238
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Prior to Grabovski, I put out an Orlov + 1st for Giordano proposal that got pretty good support (though many wanted Bowey instead, which I'm fine with). Now the cap situation doesn't work, but otherwise I'd still do it.
Based on our prospect pool, I think it would be wise to hang on to our 1st rounders. Personally, I 'd look to trade Laich for a 4LD.

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09-19-2013, 01:05 PM
  #239
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Yes. Tex hit it on the head.

Frankly, I'd like both. Bruising top 4 dman AND John Erskine on bottom pair. Best of both worlds.
I don't think nearly as many people will have an issue with Erskine playing the bottom pairing and it's hard to imagine anyone having an issue with an upgrade to the top 4. I have more concerns about who Erskine is paired with there though. Ideally he would be playing with someone who has the skills to move the puck up ice. Given Oates approach to the whole handedness thing, if a defenseman was acquired, I can't help but wonder if Hillen - Olesky will ultimately be a better pairing than Erskine - Olesky. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens with Kundratek as well.

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09-20-2013, 08:15 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Ridley Simon View Post
There are 2 kinds of physicality. Lets use ex-Caps to illustrate the point, shall we?

First we have the punishing hitters -- like Scott Stevens.
Second we the smothering strongmen like Rod Langway.

Tremendous dmen, stud players. If you are an old school Caps fan, you understand each player, so I don't need to give details. If you aren't, YouTube them both.

Bob Rouse like the Stevens player. He doesn't get as excited by the Langway player.

Bob both are great assets in a dman.

Unfortunately, we don have either (but we could, in Alzner....if he got a lot stronger, a Langway type). Problem is, Langway's game has been neutralized a little bit by the rules changes. However, Rod would have adapted.

Anyway, I digress. Either type player is great.
First off...Rod Langway was soft

Yes absolutely I'd take the Stevens type player any day of the week. When Stevens left there was a void for that. So much so that Poile went and did the unthinkable...offer sheet Dave Manson (would have cost us a couple 1st rounders) to which Sather matched.

Then it was filled by Tinordi (they would hope Witt would have developed along those lines but never did)

Erskine is the closest we've had really.

It was like Nashville and the Weber vs Suter debate. Suter had a lot of support since he was considered the better defensive player of the two and the one who carried that pairing defensively.

Weber would be my CLEAR choice. Attitude, bringing pain and being angry count more for me than most others.

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I agree there are many that think the only reasons that the caps don't hve a legit 3/4 left d is because McPhee is either blind or incompetent or both.

that doesn't wash away that Erskine is a 5d and a fill in 4d on his better days. he's just not a 4d and his head busting skills don't make him any better than the 5d that he is.
At times he certainly has played like it. Either way I agree that we could upgrade. But...what "upgrade" means to me is different than what it means to most.
I don't consider Scuderi and upgrade b/c he just doesn't bring that added element we sorely need. There is no question he is superior defensively but again...anger..bringing pain...being nasty. We need MORE of that...not LESS

Every Spring for the past 6 years or so the sentiment has been the same "The Caps need to become harder to play against"....translated that means we need more toughnezz not less.

Putting Erksine on the 3rd pairing to me would mean taking Oleksy out really. I don't think they are a good match as a pairing. Even if they were together all our toughness would be on one D pairing and the one which gets to see the least icetime.

This would not solve our toughness issues.

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09-20-2013, 09:59 AM
  #241
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"The Caps need to become harder to play against".
harder to play against but easier to score on.

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09-20-2013, 10:21 AM
  #242
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harder to play against but easier to score on.
You so sure about that?

Its easy to see that one player isn't quite as good a skater or defender as another but whats not so easy to see is the effects of intimidation.

Hitting/nastiness/ornery causes opponents to get intimidated. These are human beings and no matter how tough they may appear it is easy to get intimidated.

When Stevens was a player the other team KNEW he was on the ice. Each player was aware of his presence out there and that in itself leads to thinking about that and not the puck as much. Tinordi was a similar type of player.

That, I am sure, is why Oates regarded Erskine highly and called him " a force".

I expect you to understand this but I know you and most others will not agree with the level of effect it has and whether its more impactful than being positionally sound.

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09-20-2013, 10:26 AM
  #243
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Now the the Giordano talk can stop, he's now the captain of the Flames.

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09-20-2013, 10:37 AM
  #244
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Now the the Giordano talk can stop, he's now the captain of the Flames.
Hey, they traded their captain last season, why not do it again?

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09-20-2013, 12:36 PM
  #245
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When Stevens was a player the other team KNEW he was on the ice. Each player was aware of his presence out there and that in itself leads to thinking about that and not the puck as much. Tinordi was a similar type of player.

That, I am sure, is why Oates regarded Erskine highly and called him " a force".
The thing is Erskine isn't anywhere near as good as either of those guys. One guy is a Hall of Famer and the other was a bonafide top two defender in addition to bringing the pain.

Put me in the Erskine can stay on the third pairing but we need an upgrade for our top four camp.

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09-20-2013, 05:20 PM
  #246
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You so sure about that?

Its easy to see that one player isn't quite as good a skater or defender as another but whats not so easy to see is the effects of intimidation.

Hitting/nastiness/ornery causes opponents to get intimidated. These are human beings and no matter how tough they may appear it is easy to get intimidated.

When Stevens was a player the other team KNEW he was on the ice. Each player was aware of his presence out there and that in itself leads to thinking about that and not the puck as much. Tinordi was a similar type of player.

That, I am sure, is why Oates regarded Erskine highly and called him " a force".

I expect you to understand this but I know you and most others will not agree with the level of effect it has and whether its more impactful than being positionally sound.
Erskine's intimidation makes him a better player. yes. if you think it makes him a serviceable 4 you are letting your love of delivering pain get the better of you.

Erskine is a 6/7 that may be a solid 5 because he can bring the pain and throw em now and then. As a 4 its all about his ability not to get lit up. This past playoffs he was exposed as a 4. He didn't come close to hurting anyone badly enough to scare the rangers from challenging him. In fact didn't they manage to hurt him instead?

balance rb. balance. Erskine is not so intimidating that he rates more ice and shutdown pair duty. he's just not

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09-20-2013, 07:07 PM
  #247
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There never should have been a game 7.
As much as it pains me, they lost to a great team.....was a tough series with crazy officiating. You make it sound like they totally blew the series to bad team, while ignoring he did crumble in game 7.

This teams success/failure doesn't hinge on 4.

8 and 19 have to take over play and produce. As I've said before 19 especially has to be a top player this spring

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09-20-2013, 09:57 PM
  #248
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Was reading this from Lebrun at ESPN on Morrow:

Quote:

BRENDEN MORROW
It appears the former Dallas Stars captain might find a team sooner rather than later.

"Things are starting to happen now," he said on the line from Dallas. "Iíve got some things starting to evolve a little bit."

Morrow visited with a team Thursday.

"Iím thinking about another team visit as well," Morrow said while not divulging names. "I've actually got a few offers that I'm mulling over at the moment. It's a tough marketplace, theyíre not the biggest offers or what I had been hoping for, but at this point I just want to get playing again. So I'm mulling over these offers."

Sounds like he'll think things through over the weekend and make a decision next week. It's clearly going to be a pretty big pay cut from the $4.1 million he earned last season with Dallas and Pittsburgh.

But at 34, I believe heís got lots of hockey left. He oozes character. He played well after joining the Penguins last season before getting hurt. Nobody said anything at the time but he tried to play through a cracked knee cap last spring before sitting out some playoff games. Morrowís concern is that some teams didnít know that come July 5 when free agency opened.

"I get what teams are concerned about, I was plagued with some injuries a couple of years ago," said Morrow, a member of Canadaís 2010 Olympic gold medal team. "And nobody really knew in the playoffs what I was battling through."

Either way, it appears he might be willing to do a one-year deal over the next week or so and get on with it.

"I just want to get in and be a part of the process of building a team and getting started from training camp," said Morrow. "The timing isnít perfect."

It's absolutely crazy Morrow is still sitting out there. Teams should be all over this guy. He can still provide a real positive impact both on and off the ice.
Any of you guys here think he'd be worth a look for a cheap 1 year deal?

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09-20-2013, 10:15 PM
  #249
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No thanks. Even at his best he was a somewhat secondary contributor who made up for it with intangibles. His play on the ice has declined so much over the past few years that even those aren't worth it anymore. He's done, I'd imagine.

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09-21-2013, 01:25 AM
  #250
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There already isn't any cap space to bring up guys like Orlov or Wilson, adding another body to the mix won't help anything.

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