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Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XXIII: The Return of Michael Jordan

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Old
09-24-2013, 09:45 AM
  #326
txpd
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well..first of all there were only 18 nhl defensemen with as many as 3 fights last season. tim gleason had 4 majors which I assume were fighting. oleksy was the only cap in the 3+ category. kevin bieksa....blaska...he had 2. Erskine ranked 50th in pim's.

hey...Strachan had 4 fights and ranked 31st in pims. Maybe he is your top 4 guy. eh?

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09-24-2013, 09:48 AM
  #327
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For me the biggest exploitation on the blueline is----size (yes that does make them forechecking targets and Rangers took full advantage after game 1)----our mobility, as in our ability to quickly turn the puck back up ice without turning it over or sloppily just chipping it out, and finally---our positioning. I'm fine with some timely hitting, i applaud it, but if its going to take Erskine or whoever way out of position and we are left with Green covering the middle of the ice, Fail.

Those are my biggest issues.

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09-24-2013, 09:53 AM
  #328
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Not on this team. We would have zero toughness in our top 4 and would throw no-hitter after no-hitter. The very definition of "easy to play against". That would not make us a "much better team"

Its like back in 2000..."hey we have a really strong consistent team that lacks skill! I know...lets add Jagr and Lang and BANG! Stanley Cup is ours!!"

Its not so simple. There are various elements and parts you need that have to fit correctly and if you are buttery soft (which we would be if you had your way with no Erskine, Oleksy, Volpatti, etc) then you wouldn't go far.



I'm down...under the condition that the player who replaces him plays tough. No offensive guy/puck mover/undersized without any physicality.
That defense on the 2002 team (not 2000) sucked (and at least had a couple of tougher guys on it with Witt and Doig) and that is why that team went nowhere. Also, your strawman argument of everyone wanting to get rid of Erskine completely are really tiring. No one wants to get rid of Erskine they just think he is more suited to the 3rd pairing.

Top 4 defenseman that are tough do not grow on trees. However, this does not make Erskine a top four defenseman.

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09-24-2013, 09:56 AM
  #329
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I mean, at his current price point I'd gladly get rid of Erskine. I have plenty of time for him as a 6, though I'd rather he be a 7 who rotates in when you think you really need the bruising, but he's bad value no matter where he slots in with his current contract.

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09-24-2013, 09:58 AM
  #330
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Wait...when did I say that Physical Play=Fighting and ONLY Fighting??? I don't recall even hinting at that but I could be mistaken.

Scott Stevens in his later years was still a very physical Dman but he didn't fight much at all towards the end.

My definition may vary from others but a guy like Langway was a "space eater" who was very good at pinning people to the boards. Thats great. But he wasn't physical in my definition of the term.

Sure he rarely fought but thats not why. He wasn't mean or nasty, he rarely if ever hit to hurt/jar an opponent and just wasn't a player that put the fear of bodily harm onto his opponents. That FEAR is tangible to me. It makes offensive players hesitate and start overthinking when said physical player is out on the ice. KEEP YOUR HEAD UP! WATCH OUT XXX IS ON THE ICE!

Hitting to hurt along the boards is important too. Make them feel it. Wear them down. Make them think.

Getting in scrums to establish that you won't take any hogwash. In 07-08 the first 3 games of the Flyer's series we turned the other cheek and were utterly dominated with Hartnell, Upshall and Briere taking all kinds of libertites with Huet. Thats not a recipe for victory. In games 4-7 we grew a pair and tilted the ice. Had we started that way we would have won that series.

Also...Erskine can neuter the Avery/Marchand types. Scuderi cannot.

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09-24-2013, 10:03 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Xaroc View Post
That defense on the 2002 team (not 2000) sucked (and at least had a couple of tougher guys on it with Witt and Doig) and that is why that team went nowhere. Also, your strawman argument of everyone wanting to get rid of Erskine completely are really tiring. No one wants to get rid of Erskine they just think he is more suited to the 3rd pairing.

Top 4 defenseman that are tough do not grow on trees. However, this does not make Erskine a top four defenseman.
Right but the point stands. We decided to accumulate soft skilled players thinking thats the road to victory.

Witt was folding the tents about then and Doig was flat out not an NHL player. Erskine is one.

If you had a chance to swap Erskine out for Scuderi you are saying you would not? I'm not talking about both on the team right now...1:1 switch.

Most of you would say HECK YEAH! I am telling you that our mix will be WAY WAY off then.

Calle Jo and Oates love the guy with good reason. They understand that you need that toughness on the blue line playing top 4 minutes. The top 4 guys play most of the game generally especially in important games. Relegating your only true toughness to the 3rd pairing isn't solving the issue.

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09-24-2013, 10:22 AM
  #332
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I'll say it again. Who was the bruiser for Chicago's blueline? Los Angeles'?

You don't NEED a tough guy in your top four, as you keep asserting. Hell, Chicago and Los Angeles didn't even have one in their top six.

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09-24-2013, 10:25 AM
  #333
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I'll say it again. Who was the bruiser for Chicago's blueline? Los Angeles'?

You don't NEED a tough guy in your top four, as you keep asserting. Hell, Chicago and Los Angeles didn't even have one in their top six.
Seabrook is a nasty dman. Doughty is fairly nasty as well. The fact that they're actually good at playing defense (unlike John Erskine) is the reason that they're good defensemen though.

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09-24-2013, 10:36 AM
  #334
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Seabrook is a nasty dman. Doughty is fairly nasty as well. The fact that they're actually good at playing defense (unlike John Erskine) is the reason that they're good defensemen though.
Both of those guys fall much more in line with the "denial of space" mold than the "pound you in the face" mold, especially Seabrook. Doughty will occassionally lay a big hit, but nobody is physically intimidated by him.

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09-24-2013, 10:48 AM
  #335
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Seabrook is a nasty dman. Doughty is fairly nasty as well. The fact that they're actually good at playing defense (unlike John Erskine) is the reason that they're good defensemen though.
Right. A guy like Hjalmarsson could use to hit more but he does have flashes and hits more the Carlzner combined. I'm too old to watch west coast games on a consistent basis but in addition to Doughty I love that Matt Greene. Not sure what his role is on that team but I've been impressed the few times I saw him.

Now if we want to "upgrade" Erskine that is fine. Again my definition of Upgrade is not a guy like Scuderi or others who simply don't play tough. For THIS team we need that element.

We still have a ways to go on the roster but there have been some positives the last year or so. For now Erskine is the best fit unless someone that brings the same elements as him becomes feasible to acquire.


“He’s not losing his job. He’s not,” Oates said after the Capitals preseason game in Philadelphia last week. “It’s not even up for grabs. He’s top four on our team.”

That vote of confidence certainly seems to indicate that, for the time being, none of the other left-handed defensemen — including Dmitry Orlov and Jack Hillen — is vying for anything more than a spot on the third pair. Oates and the rest of the coaching staff value Erskine’s physical play and see his decline late last season as a reflection of a player skating six to 10 more minutes per night than he did the year before.

Assistant coach Calle Johansson sees Erskine’s importance in the lineup as more than just a physical presence, too. He believes the big defenseman is part of what makes the Capitals work and exist as a strong group.

Everybody’s comfortable being around John Erskine. He’s an unbelievable team guy, so when he does something good on the ice, that’s the type of player that lifts the whole team,” Johansson said. “Everybody on the bench goes ‘Way to go Ersk’ and everybody’s feeling good about it. He’s one of those guys that is kind of glue for a team.”


I highlighted some key comments. Players on the team root for #4 in no small part b/c he has their backs. Players need that. Especially ones who aren't equipped to handle themselves.

Seems like Oates is smarter than 99% of HF board posters. This should come as a shock to no one ever.

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09-24-2013, 10:54 AM
  #336
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Based on the hit stats from that season/playoffs Matt Greene was the Kings' thumper on defense in their cup season.

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Old
09-24-2013, 11:29 AM
  #337
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Everybody’s comfortable being around John Erskine. He’s an unbelievable team guy, so when he does something good on the ice, that’s the type of player that lifts the whole team,” Johansson said. “Everybody on the bench goes ‘Way to go Ersk’ and everybody’s feeling good about it. He’s one of those guys that is kind of glue for a team.”
[/I]

Seems like Oates is smarter than 99% of HF board posters. This should come as a shock to no one ever.
Erskine shouldn't have to be congratulated for every time he does something right. It should be what is expected of a top 4 defenseman. It's like the kid in t-ball who gets a high five for trying hard or almost getting a hit.

Again, I'm fine with Erskine as the #6. Just because he may or may not be the best choice out of the current options does not mean he is an adequate top 4 D.

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09-24-2013, 12:13 PM
  #338
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Oates' and CalleJo are just circling the wagons. What do you expect, them to sell out there players before the season even starts? Of course they're going to try to pump Erskine's tires. It's not much different than GMGM telling us that Laich was on par with Richards and Backes and he was going to be our 2C. It's the party line, and they're sticking to it until they have a better song to sing.

Beyond that, I see BobRouse chose to ignore this quote:
Quote:
You mentioned protecting your goaltender better. Do you think you could use a top-four defenseman who can carry the load?
"I can’t disagree with you, but I can only coach the guys I have and I like the guys I have. I want one of them to step up and be that guy. I’ll help them and Calle [Johansson] will help them and we’ll grow their game"
http://www.csnwashington.com/hockey-...lots-more-give

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Based on the hit stats from that season/playoffs Matt Greene was the Kings' thumper on defense in their cup season.
Greene is hardly any more physical than someone like Scott Hannan. I wouldn't really call him a thumper.

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09-24-2013, 12:19 PM
  #339
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The league needs a thumper or pancake stat. And pancaked stat. Who gets knocked over the most.

I want to know who hits the hardest, and most frequently; not solely who is credited with the most by the NHL definition.

Ken Kough Klee

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09-24-2013, 12:20 PM
  #340
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Greene is hardly any more physical than someone like Scott Hannan. I wouldn't really call him a thumper.
Greene has averaged 3-4 hits per game in the regular season and playoffs over the last couple seasons. Over the same time Hannan has averaged less than 1 hit per game.

I'm aware that the hit stat is far less than standardized across the league but those two are not anywhere close to being in the same ballpark.

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09-24-2013, 12:25 PM
  #341
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Oates' and CalleJo are just circling the wagons. What do you expect, them to sell out there players before the season even starts? Of course they're going to try to pump Erskine's tires. It's not much different than GMGM telling us that Laich was on par with Richards and Backes and he was going to be our 2C. It's the party line, and they're sticking to it until they have a better song to sing.

Beyond that, I see BobRouse chose to ignore this quote:

http://www.csnwashington.com/hockey-...lots-more-give


Greene is hardly any more physical than someone like Scott Hannan. I wouldn't really call him a thumper.
So basically Oates is echoing what I am saying? Could we use an upgrade? Ofcourse! But what the definition of "upgrade" really is separates me from you. I feel Oates/Calle Jo agree with me that it would have to be a physical dman based on their other comments and why they like Erskine in that spot.

Scott Hannan was never ever a big thumper. He was a strong positional dman in the Langway style. Strong along the boards but never hit to hurt. Matt Greene had some painful hits when I saw him.

Interesting stat...I know "hits" is a very debated stat but generally it the more physical players are higher up on the list from what I see.

Last year John Erskine was 28th among Dmen in hits. Every single Dman above him played in at least 38 games vs Erskine's 30. If Erskine played 45 games he'd have about 136 hits which would be a top 5 figure for Dmen.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/pl...ion/defensemen


Last edited by BobRouse: 09-24-2013 at 12:32 PM.
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Old
09-24-2013, 12:40 PM
  #342
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So basically Oates is echoing what I am saying? Could we use an upgrade? Ofcourse! But what the definition of "upgrade" really is separates me from you. I feel Oates/Calle Jo agree with me that it would have to be a physical dman based on their other comments and why they like Erskine in that spot.

Scott Hannan was never ever a big thumper. He was a strong positional dman in the Langway style. Strong along the boards but never hit to hurt. Matt Greene had some painful hits when I saw him.






And that's post-2005 lockout. He used to basically football tackle guys.

Matt Greene is a guy who plays the body more than the puck, the same way Hannan does. Regardless of what the "stats" say (the "hits" stat is a joke), I wouldn't categorize Greene as a physically intimidating player. Both Hannan and Greene like to initiate contact, but they do so mostly to remove space and options for the offensive player. Didn't someone around here call Hannan's technique "paw to the jaw?" Niether of them is a Scott Stevens-type.

You know what stat is tracked well? Time on ice. Matt Greene only saw 12:18 of ES TOI per game during the Kings' playoff run, and only 16:05 TOI/G total. He was clearly a 3rd pairing + PK guy. Only Alec Martinez saw less TOI among the Kings' defensemen. Rob Scuderi, on the other hand, saw 21:44 per game.

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09-24-2013, 12:46 PM
  #343
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Dmen who are thumpers are pretty much extinct because the most important skill in the NHL these days is skating. Chara/Kronwall/Weber...these guys are diamonds. This isn't 1988 were any no talent goon who can barely skate can clutch and board away.

In a top four role the only value Erskine's toughness brings is to stir **** up when we're down 4 goals and need a spark so that we can make it respectable and lose by 2.

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09-24-2013, 01:14 PM
  #344
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This is not the first time I have heard such arguments. Some people just value physical play higher than others. I am one of those people.

I think the Caps need to play angrier and tougher in order to help achieve more success. Thats a historically proven way to win but not the ONLY way to win I admit.

Ovechkin thinks the Caps need to get tougher. Oates and Calle Jo insinuate that is a big reason Erskine won't lose his spot. The entire hockey world knows the Caps need to be "harder to play against".

Taking Erskine out without replacing his physical presence in the top 4 is certainly not a way to do the above.

So in one corner we have : Oates/Calle Jo/Ovechkin/The Tinner/RH

In the other corner we have: Pretty much every poster on here outside of me and RH

I like the knowledge of the people in my corner to be honest and it just might..MIGHT..mean we are onto something...

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09-24-2013, 01:17 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
Dmen who are thumpers are pretty much extinct because the most important skill in the NHL these days is skating. Chara/Kronwall/Weber...these guys are diamonds. This isn't 1988 were any no talent goon who can barely skate can clutch and board away.

In a top four role the only value Erskine's toughness brings is to stir **** up when we're down 4 goals and need a spark so that we can make it respectable and lose by 2.
don't go too far. Erskine's ability to clear the crease with prejudice and ability to drill a top end player absolutely has value. That carries a lot more value than stirring up ****.

top end opposing players will not linger around the caps goaltenders with Erskine on the ice. the question is whether that offsets the amount of times those same players get quality chances because of Erskine's deficiancies.

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09-24-2013, 01:20 PM
  #346
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If you knew anything about the game, you'd be in it? Right?


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09-24-2013, 01:20 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
This is not the first time I have heard such arguments. Some people just value physical play higher than others. I am one of those people.

I think the Caps need to play angrier and tougher in order to help achieve more success. Thats a historically proven way to win but not the ONLY way to win I admit.

Ovechkin thinks the Caps need to get tougher. Oates and Calle Jo insinuate that is a big reason Erskine won't lose his spot. The entire hockey world knows the Caps need to be "harder to play against".

Taking Erskine out without replacing his physical presence in the top 4 is certainly not a way to do the above.

So in one corner we have : Oates/Calle Jo/Ovechkin/The Tinner/RH

In the other corner we have: Pretty much every poster on here outside of me and RH

I like the knowledge of the people in my corner to be honest and it just might..MIGHT..mean we are onto something...
You're making quite a few assumptions here:

1. That Oates/Calle Jo/Ovechkin value physical play more than good defense
2. That every other poster doesn't value physical play.
3. That taking Erskine out of the lineup and replacing him with someone who isn't a thumper wouldn't make the Caps harder to play against.

Question for you: The Rangers were arguably one of the teams most difficult to play against under Tortorella. Who was their punishing defenseman?

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09-24-2013, 01:22 PM
  #348
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If you knew anything about the game, you'd be in it? Right?

Mystlyfe hockey knowledge>>>>Adam Oates

My bad

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09-24-2013, 01:22 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
This is not the first time I have heard such arguments. Some people just value physical play higher than others. I am one of those people.

I think the Caps need to play angrier and tougher in order to help achieve more success. Thats a historically proven way to win but not the ONLY way to win I admit.

Ovechkin thinks the Caps need to get tougher. Oates and Calle Jo insinuate that is a big reason Erskine won't lose his spot. The entire hockey world knows the Caps need to be "harder to play against".

Taking Erskine out without replacing his physical presence in the top 4 is certainly not a way to do the above.

So in one corner we have : Oates/Calle Jo/Ovechkin/The Tinner/RH

In the other corner we have: Pretty much every poster on here outside of me and RH

I like the knowledge of the people in my corner to be honest and it just might..MIGHT..mean we are onto something...
Name all the great punishing dmen in the league. Because, really after the three I named above, I can't really think of any. It is in fact a different game.

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09-24-2013, 01:26 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
You're making quite a few assumptions here:

1. That Oates/Calle Jo/Ovechkin value physical play more than good defense
2. That every other poster doesn't value physical play.
3. That taking Erskine out of the lineup and replacing him with someone who isn't a thumper wouldn't make the Caps harder to play against.

Question for you: The Rangers were arguably one of the teams most difficult to play against under Tortorella. Who was their punishing defenseman?
Girardi and Staal are very physical Dmen for starters and they each play half the game or did under Torts.

1. I say physical play LEADS to good defense in a sense. I stated why several times and don't feel like repeating.
2. I'm sure other posters value physical play but not to the extent I feel they should and some not even close.
3. I guess that depends on your definition of being "harder to play against". I think its a safe assumption that when that phrase is thrown around it correlates directly to toughness and physical play.

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