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Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XXIII: The Return of Michael Jordan

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10-10-2013, 01:16 PM
  #976
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
I can't believe we made up our minds on the final verdict on Jeff Schultz. HE HAD ANOTHER WHOLE YEAR ON HIS CONTRACT!!!
Yeah having regularly watched a guy for all or part of 7 NHL seasons and 400+ NHL games is pretty much the same as watching a guy for 16 games...

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10-10-2013, 01:20 PM
  #977
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Oh my...there is little hope for you my friend.

If what Jussi had to offer was so good I wonder why so many teams just chuck him to the scrap heap? They see what I see. He's not a competitor and fades when the light shines on him.

Pitt did much better when they inserted Tyler Kennedy (a vastly underrated player ala Matt Cooke) in their lineup in the playoffs last year. Jokinen started the playoffs but quickly found himself in the pressbox for reasons NOT due to injury.

Look I admit when I make mistakes and am wrong. But some people (check the mirror) are so hell bent into their view that they lose all perspective on the situation. (notice how Laich and Brouwer are struggling a bit...difference between Grabs and Ribs...Ribs involves his linemates. I have yet to see Grabo do that altho he does give supreme effort)

I would not take Jussi Jokinen for FREE. Meaning ZERO cap hit or assets required. The guy is flat out a waste of a roster spot. Just like Wolski he'll score a goal here and there when given a chance and does really really good in shootouts. Everything else about him sucks.
Excuse me? I am the one who doesn't have perspective on the situation?

This is me:

-Jokinen is significantly cheaper than Erat cap wise
-Jokinen cost NOTHING, is waveable, while Erat cost Forsberg and is not. If you're not using either of them for anything but 4th line fodder Jokinen is better for that reason
-Jokinen has 18 points in 35 playoff games, Erat has 23 in 50
-Jokinen had 7 goals and 11 points before being waived, was a -8, and was a natural LW. Erat had 4 goals, 21 points before he was traded and everyone in Nashville thought he was on decline. Oh, and he was also a RW.
-Jokinen would not have cost us an 11th overall pick from that summer.
-The primary reason for acquiring a LW at the deadline was for a short-term playoff push and to mitigate Laich's absence.

By those metrics Jokinen was a significantly better option

^^^
That, my friend, is called having perspective

This is you:

Quote:
I would not take Jussi Jokinen for FREE. Meaning ZERO cap hit or assets required. The guy is flat out a waste of a roster spot. Just like Wolski he'll score a goal here and there when given a chance and does really really good in shootouts. Everything else about him sucks.
^^^
That is someone being hell bent into their view

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10-10-2013, 01:22 PM
  #978
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
McPhee does nothing but dumpster dive! RABBLE RABBLE RABLLE

McPhee should have dumpster dove instead of the move he made! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Except this time McPhee dumpster dove but paid the bum sleeping in the dumpster $100 for the honor.

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10-10-2013, 01:26 PM
  #979
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watching a guy for 16 games...
You mean the number of games it took this organization to run him into the ground for zero reason and have him wanting a trade?

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10-10-2013, 01:31 PM
  #980
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More often than not I am right in these situations. When I am wrong I have no problems admiting it. When I'm right I have no problems patting myself on the back and taking credit for it. The difference is the people remember when you are wrong more often than you are right when they have an axe to grind with you.

Jokinen is like a Dimitri Khristich/Wolski type...they have lots of skill and show it in flashes. But they can't mentally of physically compete in this league.

Over the years I have seen many many players like this. They certainly don't lack the skill to be in the NHL but they are mentally fragile and the often fade into oblivion

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10-10-2013, 01:32 PM
  #981
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Note to self. We shouldn't have an ongoing discussion about Caps moves. Let's check in on this one after the Forsberg/Latta retirements.
Sounds good but I'd like to make sure Hertl and Wilson are added to that list also because frankly given what we have seen so far, which I think is close to enough to call time on this whole discussion, I'd rather have Hertl, Erat, and Latta than Forsberg, Wilson, and Jokinen...

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10-10-2013, 01:34 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
You mean the number of games it took this organization to run him into the ground for zero reason and have him wanting a trade?
Yeah nobody has ever come back from such treatment...

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10-10-2013, 01:36 PM
  #983
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More often than not I am right in these situations. When I am wrong I have no problems admiting it. When I'm right I have no problems patting myself on the back and taking credit for it. The difference is the people remember when you are wrong more often than you are right when they have an axe to grind with you.

Jokinen is like a Dimitri Khristich/Wolski type...they have lots of skill and show it in flashes. But they can't mentally of physically compete in this league.

Over the years I have seen many many players like this. They certainly don't lack the skill to be in the NHL but they are mentally fragile and the often fade into oblivion
Just like with Grabovski you have some unfounded hate for the player and are giving him less credit than he deserves. He is significantly better and tougher than Wolski who was a true and utter flake. Jokinen is no world beater by any stretch but he was claimed by the Pittsburgh Penguins. Other than the Bruins you are unlikely to find a more softness-loathing team in the NHL. They are also arguably the most north-south team in the NHL. And he has produced there even if he hasn't lit the world on fire. He also has a documented history of clutch play. You completely disregard those things because of your personal dislike of the player, not to mention all my other bullet points.

If he was putting up PPG with the caps like he has been with the Penguins you'd turn around on him pretty quickly just like with Grabo.

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10-10-2013, 01:38 PM
  #984
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Yeah nobody has ever come back from such treatment...
I'm sure it'll be just like all the other players McPhee maligned over the years that have made a successful recovery and reintegration with the team. I mean, there's no way he'd even burn a bridge here or there, or say all the time.

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10-10-2013, 01:44 PM
  #985
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I'm sure it'll be just like all the other players McPhee maligned over the years...
Have I missed McPhee calling Erat out or something? I mean I honestly may have as I have been in training the last couple of days and not really paying attention to what is going on with the Caps since they haven't been playing. Seriously, how has McPhee 'maligned' Erat besides dealing for him in the first place? And yeah, yeah, yeah that alone could be enough...

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10-10-2013, 01:46 PM
  #986
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Sounds good but I'd like to make sure Hertl and Wilson are added to that list also because frankly given what we have seen so far, which I think is close to enough to call time on this whole discussion, I'd rather have Hertl, Erat, and Latta than Forsberg, Wilson, and Jokinen...
At the time we made the Erat trade Jokinen was a very realistic and viable alternative that a more prudent GM could have gone after, and in fact a more prudent GM did just that. He had a low cap hit, cost no assets, was available, had a history of production and clutch play and was dying for a change of scenery. We needed a deadline addition at LW for a playoff push/until Laich got healthy, and what do you know unlike Erat he was actually a LW. All in all getting Jokinen made more sense at the time, even completely disregarding his and Erat's performances after the trades. In fact back then I was for it and so were some other posters here I believe since that was the one season I wanted us to add parts on the cheap since it was obvious we weren't going anywhere. No need to monday morning quarterback on anything.


Last edited by ChibiPooky: 10-10-2013 at 02:03 PM. Reason: Removed dig at other poster
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10-10-2013, 01:47 PM
  #987
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Just like with Grabovski you have some unfounded hate for the player and are giving him less credit than he deserves. He is significantly better and tougher than Wolski who was a true and utter flake. Jokinen is no world beater by any stretch but he was claimed by the Pittsburgh Penguins. Other than the Bruins you are unlikely to find a more softness-loathing team in the NHL. They are also arguably the most north-south team in the NHL. And he has produced there even if he hasn't lit the world on fire. He also has a documented history of clutch play. You completely disregard those things because of your personal dislike of the player, not to mention all my other bullet points.

If he was putting up PPG with the caps like he has been with the Penguins you'd turn around on him pretty quickly just like with Grabo.
With Grabovski I never said he was a BAD player or that I thought he sucked. I just didn't care for the style he played. I always gave him credit for his EFFORT which I have never seen in Jokinen.

I guess thats the thing I really hate. A player who I see not giving it his all for one reason or another. Wolski irrated me to no end b/c of that. Just like Jagr did when he was here despite racking up impressive points (not by his standards but still)

But even with Grabo some of my fears maybe materializing. Laich and Brouwer look lost on that line. Only 3 games but I'd like to see him get those guys involved more like Ribs did.

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10-10-2013, 01:58 PM
  #988
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With Grabovski I never said he was a BAD player or that I thought he sucked. I just didn't care for the style he played. I always gave him credit for his EFFORT which I have never seen in Jokinen.

I guess thats the thing I really hate. A player who I see not giving it his all for one reason or another. Wolski irrated me to no end b/c of that. Just like Jagr did when he was here despite racking up impressive points (not by his standards but still)

But even with Grabo some of my fears maybe materializing. Laich and Brouwer look lost on that line. Only 3 games but I'd like to see him get those guys involved more like Ribs did.
His style and also you lumped every personality flaw under the sun on him.

Again, Jokinen would not have been taken in by Pittsburgh, a cap strapped team that filters players on their roster like Google filters their employers, and decently fit in there if he was Wolski. Yeah, he loafs around. No one is saying you should build a franchise around him. But he's free and he can fill a need. You sound as though you'd rather miss the playoffs with '99 caps style team than win a cup with Jokinen and Jagr in your top 6. It's not about what the players are like, it's about their net effect on the team, which incorporates everything from on ice factors like point production, chemistry, PP/PK abilities, shutout abilities to managerial factors like cap hit, cost of acquisition, trade clauses, waveability, etc. Remember when Montreal acquired MAB and he played a big role in burying us in 2010? Was he an ideal player to have? No. Did he get the job done in a sheltered role and then some? Yes.

Laich and Brouwer look lost because no one told them the season started. And yes, having two puck hogs with Grabovski is overkill. A playmaker such as say, Erat, would be better. Grabovski has been killing it so far and is practically our only player who understands what even strength is. Laich and Brouwer are being objectively useless. The fact that despite that Grabovski is the one in your sights is really quite telling.

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10-10-2013, 02:04 PM
  #989
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Why? As far as I can tell this is based what we have seen from these players with their new teams. And IMO 16 games isn't a whole hell of a lot different than 3.
Because, as has been clearly stated in the very post you replied to, Jokinen over Erat was a prudent move at the time and has nothing to do with the performance of either after the fact. Maybe it crept up now due to after the fact reasons but it is not relevant.

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Have I missed McPhee calling Erat out or something? I mean I honestly may have as I have been in training the last couple of days and not really paying attention to what is going on with the Caps since they haven't been playing. Seriously, how has McPhee 'maligned' Erat besides dealing for him in the first place? And yeah, yeah, yeah that alone could be enough...
No, clearly trading for a career top 6 player to be a top 6 player for your team, then jerking him around in training camp and sticking him on the 4th line until he's musing about asking for a trade is not maligning him. It's not like these people have their livelihoods or millions of dollars vested in their playing opportunities and could get miffed if they were abruptly cut off for the first time in their career for no reason. I mean, if you came back from your training and your boss just put you on janitorial duty you wouldn't feel the tiniest bit of resentment, right?

Lets wait for McPhee to start setting bags of dog **** on fire in Erat's front yard just so we can really call it without being too hasty.

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10-10-2013, 02:05 PM
  #990
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The centerman is the heart of a line and is the one with the most responsibility. There is a reason why a center generally collects more assists than wingers and thats b/c the puck flows to them and they are afforded a greater range of discretion and creativity when they have the puck.

I've repeatedly said the I want Erat on the 2nd line. I have said I am dissappointed that Brouwer/Laich (and the entire mess thats the 3rd line) have been MIA or worse.

Grabovski needs to get his linemates involved more with that being said. Simple as that. In the preseason it looked like he was but so far I haven't seen it here thru the meager sample of regular season games.

I have commended Grabovski but he's not without faults and some of the slow start from Laich and Brouwer will be attributed to Grabo if this keeps up.

Maybe its not that he isn't trying to get them involved but rather just a matter of chemistry needing time to develop. We will see ...but its something to keep an eye on.

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10-10-2013, 02:08 PM
  #991
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Laich and Brouwer look lost because no one told them the season started. And yes, having two puck hogs with Grabovski is overkill. A playmaker such as say, Erat, would be better. Grabovski has been killing it so far and is practically our only player who understands what even strength is. Laich and Brouwer are being objectively useless. The fact that despite that Grabovski is the one in your sights is really quite telling.
I agree with this. Laich can't control a puck to save his life. Brouwer is only slightly better. They are contributing jack and squat to that line right now. Gabovski is playing fine. If I were on a line with those two I would never pass the puck either.

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10-10-2013, 02:14 PM
  #992
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The centerman is the heart of a line and is the one with the most responsibility. There is a reason why a center generally collects more assists than wingers and thats b/c the puck flows to them and they are afforded a greater range of discretion and creativity when they have the puck.

I've repeatedly said the I want Erat on the 2nd line. I have said I am dissappointed that Brouwer/Laich (and the entire mess thats the 3rd line) have been MIA or worse.

Grabovski needs to get his linemates involved more with that being said. Simple as that. In the preseason it looked like he was but so far I haven't seen it here thru the meager sample of regular season games.

I have commended Grabovski but he's not without faults and some of the slow start from Laich and Brouwer will be attributed to Grabo if this keeps up.

Maybe its not that he isn't trying to get them involved but rather just a matter of chemistry needing time to develop. We will see ...but its something to keep an eye on.
Not all centremen are Joe Thornton, in fact there are many great centers who are not great or even good distributors. Jeff Carter comes to mind. Vinny Lecavalier too - but he had a great distributor from the wing his whole career. They were pretty successful I believe. Ryan Kesler's tunnel vision makes Grabovski look like Wayne Gretzky. Would you say no to Ryan Kesler as 2C? Another one is Jonathan Toews, but his not so exceptional playmaking is largely whitewashed by being joined at the hip to one of the best passers in the league. Grabovski has more playmaking ability than say, Jeff Carter. He does not need to change his style because his style is the only style working. If Ovechkin is scoring left and right but Jay Beagle can't light it up, do you put Ovechkin with Jay Beagle? NO. You do not take what works and then try to dick around with it to compensate for that which does not. Then you just ruin the working part. This is not just hockey but basic everyday life. What you do is swap out the parts that do not fit with it. Grabovski has a well known dynamic he works well with, in fact so well that his line can play far above their skill level. MacArthur-Grabo-Kulemin. Playmaker, Grabovski, intangibles guy doing the boardwork and wreaking havoc. We could have it as Erat-Grabovski-Ward, or Erat-Grabovski-Brouwer, or Johansson-Grabovski-Brouwer, or any other number of combinations that are not as mindnumbingly stupid as what Oates goes with. If you want to harp on players having flaws harp on Laich and Brouwer since their flaws are worse than Grabovski's, and their positives are much less impactful than his positives as well.

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10-10-2013, 02:18 PM
  #993
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At the time we made the Erat trade Jokinen was a very realistic and viable alternative that a more prudent GM could have gone after, and in fact a more prudent GM did just that. He had a low cap hit, cost no assets, was available, had a history of production and clutch play and was dying for a change of scenery. We needed a deadline addition at LW for a playoff push/until Laich got healthy, and what do you know unlike Erat he was actually a LW. All in all getting Jokinen made more sense at the time, even completely disregarding his and Erat's performances after the trades. In fact back then I was for it and so were some other posters here I believe since that was the one season I wanted us to add parts on the cheap since it was obvious we weren't going anywhere. No need to monday morning quarterback on anything.
And honestly is that how you think this played out, McPhee just sitting there choosing the very much more expensive of the two options to fill that left wing hole just because? That he was sitting there at his computer with a whole bunch of browser windows open with their stats, contracts, and what ever else we use to determine the worth of pretty much every player we don't actually watch very often and decided 'what the hell' and pulled the trigger on Erat as opposed to Jokinen?

Or maybe, just maybe, the Caps' pro scouts, you know the guys who are actually paid to watch the guys who don't play for the Caps and compile detailed scouting reports on said players, didn't even have these guys in remotely the same ball park and that is why McPhee chose to bring in the much more expensive option? Maybe? I mean Jokinen was on waivers a week before he was dealt for scraps and nobody in the entire league put a claim in on him, not even the team that ended up trading for him. I mean we will never know but if Erat had been on waivers at the same time do you think he would have gone unclaimed by the entire league?


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10-10-2013, 02:24 PM
  #994
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Sure there are centerman like him and Jeff Carter is a great example (altho he is a superior player to Grabovski in all honesty). Lecavalier I always viewed as a two way threat tho as he (in his prime) was one slick playmaker.

The fact remains that the guys who can play like that and succeed are few and far between. It stands to reason that you want a guy with good vision and unselfishness to play the center position.

I know Grabovski had some good years with Kulemin and MacArthur but again he had good years on horrible leaf teams and its not like he ever racked up many assists.

Again not a bad player but not the style of centerman I prefer on my team. He was outstanding in preseason and has been good (at least scoring wise) so far this season.

Are you not at all concerned that part of Brouwer/Laich struggles could be that Grabo is not that kind of center?

Regardless this could be alleviated by putting a winger who is more of a playmaker on his line (ummm..Erat anyone?).

You just can't have 3 guys with tunnel vision on one line ESPECIALLY since one of them has to be the centerman.

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10-10-2013, 02:25 PM
  #995
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No, clearly trading for a career top 6 player to be a top 6 player for your team, then jerking him around in training camp and sticking him on the 4th line until he's musing about asking for a trade is not maligning him.
So in your opinion McPhee is making the call with respect to line combos and such? That Oates is just a McPhee puppet and that in fact McPhee is actually the coach/GM but prefers the view from a box as opposed to behind the bench? Really?

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10-10-2013, 02:28 PM
  #996
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So in your opinion McPhee is making the call with respect to line combos and such? That Oates is just a McPhee puppet and that in fact McPhee is actually the coach/GM but prefers the view from a box as opposed to behind the bench? Really?
Yeah it makes more sense if its the EXACT opposite. McPhee is probably cringing inside that Oates is letting Erat rot on the 4th line.

This clearly only HURTS McPhee's image and if he truly was in control of the team with Oates his puppet then Erat would be on PP #1 along with being in the top 6

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10-10-2013, 02:43 PM
  #997
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Are you not at all concerned that part of Brouwer/Laich struggles could be that Grabo is not that kind of center?
Brouwer & Laich's struggles are largely on themselves. If you're not a puck control winger then you need to be able to forecheck worth a damn and go to the net. Otherwise they're just vanilla depth guys at even-strength and that's what they appear to be thus far.

Chimera & Fehr would likely be a better fit for Grabovski since those two play a little faster and with some hustle. The best thing Laich & Brouwer have going for them is decent defensive play. Putting those two with Erat may be the way to gol. As much as I like a lot of what Ward does, he should be the odd man out of the top nine. Only if that's done Wilson pretty much has to be returned to Plymouth and they seem dead set against that.

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10-10-2013, 02:58 PM
  #998
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And honestly is that how you think this played out, McPhee just sitting there choosing the very much more expensive of the two options to fill that left wing hole just because? That he was sitting there at his computer with a hole bunch of browser windows open with their stats, contracts, and what ever else we use to determine the worth of pretty much every player we don't actually watch very often and decided 'what the hell' and pulled the trigger on Erat as opposed to Jokinen?
Maybe if he did that he'd know he was trading for a right wing.

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Or maybe, just maybe, the Caps' pro scouts, you know the guys who are actually paid to watch the guys who don't play for the Caps and compile detailed scouting reports on said players, didn't even have these guys in remotely the same ball park and that is why McPhee chose to bring in the much more expensive option? Maybe? I mean Jokinen was on waivers a week before he was dealt for scraps and nobody in the entire league put a claim in on him, not even the team that ended up trading for him. I mean we will never know but if Erat had been on waivers at the same time do you think he would have gone unclaimed by the entire league?
So the fact that McPhee has an utterly inept paid pro scouting department that apparently spends more time jacking off than scouting players is supposed to prove... what exactly?

Jokinen was unclaimed because of his salary and because other teams did not have a spot open at the time. He was clearly wanted by at least since he was dealt a week later. It is entirely possible that no other team would have claimed Erat. His salary was higher than Jokinen's and he was also showing signs of decline. It's very realistic that most if not all other teams would have let him slide by if he was not a fit though we won't know for real until he's waived a month from now.

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10-10-2013, 03:11 PM
  #999
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So the fact that McPhee has an utterly inept paid pro scouting department that apparently spends more time jacking off than scouting players is supposed to prove... what exactly?
Oh my God 16 games into a player's stint with a new team things haven't worked out as well as many had hoped!!!

The rarity of such an occurrence can only mean the apocalypse is upon us and you can be damned sure no player ever has managed to turn things around after such a start with said new team.

I bet getting meeting requests with a location of TBD just drives you crazy doesn't it?

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10-10-2013, 03:13 PM
  #1000
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Sure there are centerman like him and Jeff Carter is a great example (altho he is a superior player to Grabovski in all honesty). Lecavalier I always viewed as a two way threat tho as he (in his prime) was one slick playmaker.
Carter's playmaking is very much inferior to Grabovski though he is a superior player. Kesler's is too. Lecavalier's playmaking never stood out, he's more of a scoring center. Most of his good playmaking went through St. Louis who isn't exactly hard to playmake with.

Would you rather win a cup with the best player available whose style you do not like or not win a cup but have a roster composed only of players whose styles you like?

Quote:
The fact remains that the guys who can play like that and succeed are few and far between. It stands to reason that you want a guy with good vision and unselfishness to play the center position.
That depends how you define "succeed". Your definition seems like it would disqualify top 6 Cs like Kesler, Staal brothers, Fisher, Carter, Legwand, Backes, Hanzal among others. Centers can bring a lot more than playmaking and be even more effective than other playmaking centers. Grabovski is the best on our team at pressuring the puck and is an excellent puck carrier. He is fearless at going to the net, and driving the net is pretty damn important for a center since it is one of the best ways to collapse an opposing team's defensive scheme. He does not shy away from contact and his quick recovery from getting wiped out catches other teams off guard. His very nature of play creates space for his linemates, and the fact that Laich and Brouwer don't have a clue of what to do with that space is their problem. For all the accolades you may give Ribeiro for being able to feed Laich and Brouwer that line got massacred at even strength and Grabovski is the only reason they are holding their own right now.

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I know Grabovski had some good years with Kulemin and MacArthur but again he had good years on horrible leaf teams and its not like he ever racked up many assists.
That line was dominant on both sides of the puck and that level of play would be better than any 2nd line we have had in a while.

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Are you not at all concerned that part of Brouwer/Laich struggles could be that Grabo is not that kind of center?
No, because Grabovski is carrying the mail and they are not. If they were hustling, forechecking, crowding the net, playing like tough blue collar canadian boys are supposed to then maybe there would be room for concern. Right now they are anchors and deserve to be treated as such. This is becoming reminiscent of when the struggles of this board's gritty canadian pets were being blamed on Semin in years back.

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