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Old
12-02-2013, 03:43 PM
  #851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Its funny because, even though he was drafted higher, Komisarek was playing at the time with a Smithtown team that wasn't really talented so he didn't particularly stick out besides the fact he was very physical (to go with this thread, no, I wasn't intimidated and felt like I needed protection).

Scuderi played for St. Anthony's who used to win the league pretty much every season. Buncha prep school kids vs. my public school team of misfits. He was amazing to watch back then.
That's cool. It seems crazy to me that pretty much every NHL player ever was the best player on his HS/midget team/wherever he played at 15/16.

Well...maybe except for John Scott.

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12-02-2013, 03:43 PM
  #852
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
I think standing up for your teammates is fine thing to do.

But how does fighting provide protection? Are you saying it's a deterrent?

The Rangers won the Cup in 1994 because they had better hockey players than all the other teams.

94 Roster...better players yes...but also most tougher than current crop of guys .
Centers

11 Mark Messier (captain) Tough
20 Mike Hudson
14 Craig MacTavish Tough
13 Sergei Nemchinov Tough Russian
12 Ed Olczyk

Wingers

9 Adam Graves Could fight !
28 Steve Larmer Tough
36 Glenn Anderson
17 Greg Gilbert Tough
26 Joey Kocur Could fight
27 Alexei Kovalev
36 Nick Kypreos Could Fight
32 Stephane Matteau Tough
16 Brian Noonan Tough
10 Esa Tikkanen Tough
18 Mike Hartman Could Fight

Defensemen

2 Brian Leetch
4 Kevin Lowe Tough
23 Jeff Beukeboom Could Fight
25 Alexander Karpovtsev
6 Doug Lidster Tough
24 Jay Wells Could Fight
21 Sergei Zubov

Goaltenders

35 Mike Richter
30 Glenn Healy

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Old
12-02-2013, 03:43 PM
  #853
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I would LOVE to add Kassian to this team. LOVE.

He is going to be the type of player this team needs and sorely lacks.

In saying that, I wouldn't trade Hagelin for him.

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Old
12-02-2013, 03:47 PM
  #854
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Sheesh - the amount of correlations that have very little basis in fact are flying around in this thread, as they often do when it comes to a debate on tough guys.

The best argument is "They beat people up and make me feel "

The deterrent argument is jumping head first into a rabbit hole.

But the other stuff, like how goons are directly responsible for career offensive years from Jaromir Jagr to Brian Boyle is pretty much fiction.
Then counter my assertion with fact. You have not done so.

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12-02-2013, 03:53 PM
  #855
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Originally Posted by NGgator60 View Post
Then counter my assertion with fact. You have not done so.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/NYR/2011.html

In 2010-2011, when Brian Boyle scored 21 goals, Derek Boogaard played exactly 1 game. Brandon Prust was acquired and played 13 games. Take a look at that roster and show me where this "toughness" is that your speak of, and better yet, how that translated to Boyle having a 20 goal season.

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Old
12-02-2013, 03:58 PM
  #856
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Chris Kreider = ? Derek Stepan=soft Rick Nash=soft
Brad Richards=Soft Derick Brassard=soft Ryan Callahan (C)=Was Tough/willing
Carl Hagelin=soft Dominic Moore=soft Mats Zuccarello=soft
Benoit Pouliot =soft Brian Boyle =soft/willing Derek Dorsett/tough

LD RD
Ryan McDonagh/soft Dan Girardi/soft
Marc Staal (A)/soft Anton Stralman/soft
Michael Del Zotto/soft Justin Falk/tough

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Old
12-02-2013, 03:59 PM
  #857
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
3 years of varsity hockey on Long Island. I actually played against Mike Komisarek and Rob Scuderi.

I never once felt safer on the ice when we dressed a big dumb idiot that couldnt skate.
So you are drawing a parallel from your experience playing high school hockey in Long Island, in a full-cage league of which I am sure fighting is outlawed, to professional hockey in the NHL? And you would like me to take your argument seriously?

I would've disagreed with your premise if you had cited the European professional leagues, as even their on-ice culture and rules promote quite a different brand of hockey, but you're going to cite a Long Island high school league as the basis for your qualified opinion that intimidation and toughness has no basis? Specious.

As an aside, I find it comical while also a bit insulting that you insinuate that tough players that might not have the skating skill that you arbitrarily deem worthy are "big dumb idiots." George Parros hails from one of the most prestigious prep high schools in NJ prior to attending Princeton and more recently representing the NHLPA in the labor dispute. Would you like to compare mental aptitudes with George?

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12-02-2013, 03:59 PM
  #858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/NYR/2011.html

In 2010-2011, when Brian Boyle scored 21 goals, Derek Boogaard played exactly 1 game. Brandon Prust was acquired and played 13 games. Take a look at that roster and show me where this "toughness" is that your speak of, and better yet, how that translated to Boyle having a 20 goal season.
Dale Weise was so tough, yo.

Also, Booguard played 22 games. So boom! So much tough!

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12-02-2013, 04:02 PM
  #859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetch66 View Post
Chris Kreider = ? Derek Stepan=soft Rick Nash=soft
Brad Richards=Soft Derick Brassard=soft Ryan Callahan (C)=Was Tough/willing
Carl Hagelin=soft Dominic Moore=soft Mats Zuccarello=soft
Benoit Pouliot =soft Brian Boyle =soft/willing Derek Dorsett/tough

LD RD
Ryan McDonagh/soft Dan Girardi/soft
Marc Staal (A)/soft Anton Stralman/soft
Michael Del Zotto/soft Justin Falk/tough
How are McD, Girardi, Staal, D. Moore, and Boyle soft? Boyle is at the top of the hitting list for forwards every year. McD will go toe to toe with anyone in the league. Girardi (whom I dislike for other reasons) has made a name for himself though hits and blocked shots. Staal is the same way as McD.

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12-02-2013, 04:02 PM
  #860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind Jam Grind View Post
Dale Weise was so tough, yo.

Also, Booguard played 22 games. So boom! So much tough!
Shoot, you're right.

22 games for Boogaard, 21 goals for Boyle. CONNECT THE DOTS.

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12-02-2013, 04:02 PM
  #861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/NYR/2011.html

In 2010-2011, when Brian Boyle scored 21 goals, Derek Boogaard played exactly 1 game. Brandon Prust was acquired and played 13 games. Take a look at that roster and show me where this "toughness" is that your speak of, and better yet, how that translated to Boyle having a 20 goal season.
Boogaard played 22 games that season, Sean Avery 76, Brandon Dubinsky 77, and Brandon Prust 82. You were interpreting their "goals scored."

Learn how to operate a statistical database correctly.

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Old
12-02-2013, 04:03 PM
  #862
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Originally Posted by NGgator60 View Post
Boogaard played 22 games that season, Sean Avery 76, Brandon Dubinsky 77, and Brandon Prust 82. You were interpreting their "goals scored."

Learn how to operate a statistical database correctly.
Youve cracked the code!

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12-02-2013, 04:04 PM
  #863
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Glenn Anderson had a nasty streak for sure..He would carve you up with his stick





Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetch66 View Post
94 Roster...better players yes...but also most tougher than current crop of guys .
Centers

11 Mark Messier (captain) Tough
20 Mike Hudson
14 Craig MacTavish Tough
13 Sergei Nemchinov Tough Russian
12 Ed Olczyk

Wingers

9 Adam Graves Could fight !
28 Steve Larmer Tough
36 Glenn Anderson
17 Greg Gilbert Tough
26 Joey Kocur Could fight
27 Alexei Kovalev
36 Nick Kypreos Could Fight
32 Stephane Matteau Tough
16 Brian Noonan Tough
10 Esa Tikkanen Tough
18 Mike Hartman Could Fight

Defensemen

2 Brian Leetch
4 Kevin Lowe Tough
23 Jeff Beukeboom Could Fight
25 Alexander Karpovtsev
6 Doug Lidster Tough
24 Jay Wells Could Fight
21 Sergei Zubov

Goaltenders

35 Mike Richter
30 Glenn Healy

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Old
12-02-2013, 04:04 PM
  #864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGgator60 View Post
So you are drawing a parallel from your experience playing high school hockey in Long Island, in a full-cage league of which I am sure fighting is outlawed, to professional hockey in the NHL? And you would like me to take your argument seriously?

I would've disagreed with your premise if you had cited the European professional leagues, as even their on-ice culture and rules promote quite a different brand of hockey, but you're going to cite a Long Island high school league as the basis for your qualified opinion that intimidation and toughness has no basis? Specious.

As an aside, I find it comical while also a bit insulting that you insinuate that tough players that might not have the skating skill that you arbitrarily deem worthy are "big dumb idiots." George Parros hails from one of the most prestigious prep high schools in NJ prior to attending Princeton and more recently representing the NHLPA in the labor dispute. Would you like to compare mental aptitudes with George?
I'm sure George Parros is a very intelligent guy in real life and I'd love to hold a conversation with him.

However, I'll be damned if BRB was't referring to his hockey sense and on-ice awareness. And you're not seriously going to argue that he's a smart hockey player, are you?

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Old
12-02-2013, 04:06 PM
  #865
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Originally Posted by NGgator60 View Post
So you are drawing a parallel from your experience playing high school hockey in Long Island, in a full-cage league of which I am sure fighting is outlawed, to professional hockey in the NHL? And you would like me to take your argument seriously?

I would've disagreed with your premise if you had cited the European professional leagues, as even their on-ice culture and rules promote quite a different brand of hockey, but you're going to cite a Long Island high school league as the basis for your qualified opinion that intimidation and toughness has no basis? Specious.

As an aside, I find it comical while also a bit insulting that you insinuate that tough players that might not have the skating skill that you arbitrarily deem worthy are "big dumb idiots." George Parros hails from one of the most prestigious prep high schools in NJ prior to attending Princeton and more recently representing the NHLPA in the labor dispute. Would you like to compare mental aptitudes with George?
Im not drawing any outlandish parallel. Im leaving that to you and Orr, and a couple of the other crazies in this thread. I was asked if I ever played sports, and I answered. Of course, Orr mentioned that intimidation and fear are a part of hockey at any level.

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12-02-2013, 04:06 PM
  #866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGgator60 View Post
Boogaard played 22 games that season, Sean Avery 76, Brandon Dubinsky 77, and Brandon Prust 82. You were interpreting their "goals scored."

Learn how to operate a statistical database correctly.
So it was Avery, Prust and Dubinsky who allowed Boyle to do so well that year? I wonder why it had to opposite effect on Gaborik...

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Old
12-02-2013, 04:07 PM
  #867
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Shoot, you're right.

22 games for Boogaard, 21 goals for Boyle. CONNECT THE DOTS.
For every game that Boogaard played, Boyle scored almost 1 goal.

Dubinsky and Avery played so many games that no one even came close to matching their point totals to their GP. Because they're so great.

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12-02-2013, 04:07 PM
  #868
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Shoot, you're right.

22 games for Boogaard, 21 goals for Boyle. CONNECT THE DOTS.
And Michael Sauer played 76, etc. It's alright, I clearly demonstrated a positive correlation between Boyle's success amongst a legion of tough players while you were not able to differentiate between goals and games played. I'm willing to respectfully entertain the merits of your other arguments but please just admit you were mistaken in this case so that I know we can discuss the merits of our debates in good faith.

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12-02-2013, 04:08 PM
  #869
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Originally Posted by Grind Jam Grind View Post
I'm sure George Parros is a very intelligent guy in real life and I'd love to hold a conversation with him.

However, I'll be damned if BRB was't referring to his hockey sense and on-ice awareness. And you're not seriously going to argue that he's a smart hockey player, are you?
Nah, I was referring to an IQ test. Because, on a hockey forum, those things should be more important than playing the game of hockey.

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12-02-2013, 04:10 PM
  #870
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Originally Posted by NGgator60 View Post
And Michael Sauer played 76, etc. It's alright, I clearly demonstrated a positive correlation between Boyle's success amongst a legion of tough players while you were not able to differentiate between goals and games played. I'm willing to respectfully entertain the merits of your other arguments but please just admit you were mistaken in this case so that I know we can discuss the merits of our debates in good faith.
And here I was thinking that Boyle scored so many goals because of his unsustainable shooting % that season! Silly me! It was definitely because of Sean Avery and Michael Sauer.

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12-02-2013, 04:10 PM
  #871
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Originally Posted by NGgator60 View Post
I clearly demonstrated a positive correlation between Boyle's success amongst a legion of tough players


You don't really get science, do you?

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12-02-2013, 04:10 PM
  #872
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Originally Posted by NGgator60 View Post
And Michael Sauer played 76, etc. It's alright, I clearly demonstrated a positive correlation between Boyle's success amongst a legion of tough players while you were not able to differentiate between goals and games played. I'm willing to respectfully entertain the merits of your other arguments but please just admit you were mistaken in this case so that I know we can discuss the merits of our debates in good faith.
So then why did Gaborik have such a terrible year? Why did our highest point scorer only finish with 54 points?

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12-02-2013, 04:13 PM
  #873
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Originally Posted by Grind Jam Grind View Post
I'm sure George Parros is a very intelligent guy in real life and I'd love to hold a conversation with him.

However, I'll be damned if BRB was't referring to his hockey sense and on-ice awareness. And you're not seriously going to argue that he's a smart hockey player, are you?
BRB should then refrain from making blanket statements that leave the interpretation of his words up to the individual reading his comments. That being said, how would we go about characterizing Parros' on-ice hockey intelligence? I'd be interested to know the basis on which you'd conclude that he is anything but an intelligent player. Fighting majors? Instigators? Goals scored? How can we reasonably project Parros' on-ice intelligence versus a player with a different skill-set (brings different value to a club) such as a Pouliot or a Gaborik or a Phaneuf, etc?

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12-02-2013, 04:13 PM
  #874
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By the way, nice job taking your supposed correlation and saying that it's a causative effect. I really recommend everyone on here takes an introductory statistics course. Anything. It's actually a very interesting science and would serve you well in life.

Same thing as the ridiculous argument that supposedly says that the Rangers throw games when they get scored on first, even if they take a lead.

Just because I jump up and now and it starts snowing, doesn't mean that me jumping up and down caused it to snow.

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12-02-2013, 04:15 PM
  #875
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post


You don't really get science, do you?
Yet I do know how to operate a statistical database. Alas, we all have our specialties

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