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Whose peak season was better, Jagr in 1998-99 or Fedorov in 1993-94

View Poll Results: Better peak season, Jagr or Fedorov
Jagr's 1998-99 season 76 65.52%
Fedorov's 1993-94 season 40 34.48%
Voters: 116. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-06-2013, 05:46 PM
  #26
gretzkyoilers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khal Drogo View Post
Jagr.


His peak and his prime is far greater than any other Euro bar none.
This x10. In his prime he was unreal.

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09-06-2013, 05:50 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Very simple question.

Who's peak season was more impressive.

Jagr's 1998-99 season, Hart trophy, Art Ross, Pearson, 127 Pts in 81 games, 20 more points than the second leading scorer (as many assists (83) as his teammate Straka had points, + 17. The Penguins scored 242 goals and Jagr had a hand in 52% of his team's goals, one other player scored 52 Pts on the Penguins.

or

Fedorov's 1993-94 season, Hart trophy, Selke, Pearson, 2nd in league scoring with 6 of his teammates scoring 70 Pts or more, +47. The Red Wings scored 356 goals total and Fedorov had a hand in 34% of the team's overall goals.
In BOLD highlights why Jagr's season was much better. As noted by another poster, the changes in scoring between 93-94 & 98-99, where it was MUCH harder to score in 98-99. "Old man" Gretzky won the scoring title in 93-94 too...

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09-06-2013, 05:59 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by gretzkyoilers View Post
In BOLD highlights why Jagr's season was much better. As noted by another poster, the changes in scoring between 93-94 & 98-99, where it was MUCH harder to score in 98-99. "Old man" Gretzky won the scoring title in 93-94 too...
I don't think anyone is arguing against Jagr's offense being much better than Fedorov's.

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09-06-2013, 06:15 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Surprising how little respect is given to a season where a center plays defense worthy of the Selke Trophy and scores 120 points. This should be Federov the winner, if not by TKO than at least by clear decision.
We are comparing Fedorov's peak season though to Jagr's peak season which is probably the best non-Lemieux season since 1993.

Context is important.

I ask you, who was more impressive in 2007-08, Ovechkin or Datsyuk?

This the same question but basically Fedorov or Jagr.

Fedorov had much more offensive support and his team scored more than 100 goals more than the Penguins did in 1998-99.

The difference in scoring overall also has to count for something. 1993-94 featured 6.48 GPG while 1998-99 featured 5.27, big difference.

So basically Fedorov's 120 Pts in 1993-94 is more like 90-100 Pts in 1998-99 with a defensive upside. Jagr was far and away the best player in the NHL in 1998-99 in a pretty strong season, the top 5 featured 1. Jagr, 2. Selanne, 3. Kayia, 4. Sakic, 5. Forsberg, so no lack of high end scoring (all Hall of Fame calibre player). What is lost in all this too is that Jagr beat out Hasek for the Hart in what was Hasek's peak season and considered by some as the greatest season ever put forth by a goaltender.

In 1993-94, Lemieux sat out most of the season and Gretzky was a shell of his former self. Yet Fedorov still lost the Art Ross by 10 Pts. I bet if Lemieux was there, Fedorov doesn't even get a sniff at the Hart.


Last edited by livewell68: 09-06-2013 at 06:31 PM.
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09-06-2013, 06:53 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
You are all crazy. Fedorov's defensive advantage all but destroys
Jag's offensive in their peak seasons. Prime you have a good argument, although Fed's four 20 pt. playoffs also matter somewhat.

And why didn't you actually post Fed's stats in the OP? Because it would be more impressive?
There's an actual argument for Fedorov having the better prime?

I think the answer here is Fedorov. Not many players can touch his single-season peak.

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09-06-2013, 07:12 PM
  #31
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I remember Colin White, the biggest, baddest defenseman the Devils have had since Scott Stevens on his way to retrieving the puck in his own zone, see Ovechkin getting ready to hit him, brace himself, and get destroyed anyway. Ovechkin came up with the puck. How does that not help win hockey games? Malkin and Ovechkin (like Jagr) are both lazy back checkers.
Malkin is miles better than ovy without the puck.

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09-06-2013, 07:12 PM
  #32
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There's an actual argument for Fedorov having the better prime?

I think the answer here is Fedorov. Not many players can touch his single-season peak.
Obviously this is all based on opinion but what I have provided is stats to prove that Jagr's season is actually better than Fedorov's.

127 Pts vs 120 Pts (with Selke) look equal offensively but the difference in scoring in those 2 seasons is basically night and day.

If we were to adjust Fedorov's 1993-94 season to 1998-99 standards, I think his season would look more like 90-100 Pts., still impressive considering he played with Selke type defense, however Jagr's offensive edge (25-35 more points) would have been way too big to overlook and Jagr would still run away with the Hart.

Now if you adjust Jagr's 1998-99 season to 1993-94 standards, Fedorov finishes 3rd in scoring and Jagr runs away with the Art Ross (even beating Gretzky) with 140 + Pts. Jagr would still win the Hart trophy.

See, the thing that everyone keeps talking about is how Jagr only provided offense and no defense, well I conjure his puck possession style. Jagr's defense was his superior offense. He played a puck possession game that was the most effective in NHL history. When a player possesses the puck as long as Jagr did, the other team is busy chasing the puck and defending more times than none therefore limiting their offensive zone time. So technically, Jagr's puck possession offense was just as effective as Fedorov's two-way Selke defense in terms of keeping the puck out of their own nets. Then you add Jagr's clear offensive edge (scoring overall and context taken into consideration) and you see why Jagr had the better peak season.


Last edited by livewell68: 09-06-2013 at 07:28 PM.
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09-06-2013, 07:15 PM
  #33
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Malkin is miles better than ovy without the puck.
I'm talking about the freight train version of Ovechkin, the man who played before suspensions took away that part of his game late in 2009-10. The man considered "a power forward if a power forward didn't fight."

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09-06-2013, 07:16 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Surprising how little respect is given to a season where a center plays defense worthy of the Selke Trophy and scores 120 points. This should be Federov the winner, if not by TKO than at least by clear decision.
Not even close imo. Jagr's puck possession is a form of defense, defensive play is over rated around these parts. Jagr contributed to nearly 20% more of his teams scoring. You're right that it's not that close.


Feds has become one of the most over rated when discussing him on these boards. Jagrs peak >>> Feds.

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09-06-2013, 07:17 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm talking about the freight train version of Ovechkin, the man who played before suspensions took away that part of his game late in 2009-10. The man considered "a power forward if a power forward didn't fight."
Being wreck-less, doesn't make you any more complete. He often ran around without a purpose.

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09-06-2013, 07:20 PM
  #36
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Back on topic, Fedorov's 2nd place finish (to Gretzky) is the highest finish by any Selke winner in history. The next highest is Datsyuk, who finished 4th twice winning the Selke: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=603565

As pointed out earlier, Fedorov was also 3rd in goals, with 4 fewer than the leader Pavel Bure. Brett Hull was 2nd.

And this was hardly a controversial Selke either, as Fedorov received 32 of 54 1st place votes.

SELKE: Sergei Fedorov 175 (32-6-3); Doug Gilmour 107 (8-20-7); Brian Skrudland 37 (4-3-8); Guy Carbonneau 29 (1-5-9); Adam Graves 19 (2-2-3); Ron Francis 17 (0-4-5); Igor Larionov 12 (1-2-1); Neal Broten 12 (0-3-3); Gary Roberts 11 (1-1-3); Kelly Miller 10 (2-0-0); Joel Otto 7 (1-0-2); Wayne Presley 7 (0-2-1); Steve Larmer 5 (1-0-0); Valeri Zelepukin 5 (1-0-0); Esa Tikkanen 4 (0-1-1); Rod Brind’Amour 3 (0-1-0); Gaetan Duchesne 3 (0-1-0); Patrick Flatley 3 (0-1-0); Dave Gagner 3 (0-1-0); Randy Wood 3 (0-1-1); Brent Sutter 3 (0-0-3) (4 3rd place votes missing & Randy Wood has 1 more than his point total warrants.)

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09-06-2013, 07:43 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Obviously this is all based on opinion but what I have provided is stats to prove that Jagr's season is actually better than Fedorov's.

127 Pts vs 120 Pts (with Selke) look equal offensively but the difference in scoring in those 2 seasons is basically night and day.

If we were to adjust Fedorov's 1993-94 season to 1998-99 standards, I think his season would look more like 90-100 Pts., still impressive considering he played with Selke type defense, however Jagr's offensive edge (25-35 more points) would have been way too big to overlook and Jagr would still run away with the Hart.

Now if you adjust Jagr's 1998-99 season to 1993-94 standards, Fedorov finishes 3rd in scoring and Jagr runs away with the Art Ross (even beating Gretzky) with 140 + Pts. Jagr would still win the Hart trophy.

See, the thing that everyone keeps talking about is how Jagr only provided offense and no defense, well I conjure his puck possession style. Jagr's defense was his superior offense. He played a puck possession game that was the most effective in NHL history. When a player possesses the puck as long as Jagr did, the other team is busy chasing the puck and defending more times than none therefore limiting their offensive zone time. So technically, Jagr's puck possession offense was just as effective as Fedorov's two-way Selke defense in terms of keeping the puck out of their own nets. Then you add Jagr's clear offensive edge (scoring overall and context taken into consideration) and you see why Jagr had the better peak season.
Adjust what? Youre too caught up in raw stats. Finishing 3rd in goals and 2nd in points is impressive no matter if the season why high scoring or not. Doing that while winning a Selke is incredible.

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09-06-2013, 07:46 PM
  #38
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Adjust what? Youre too caught up in raw stats. Finishing 3rd in goals and 2nd in points is impressive no matter if the season why high scoring or not. Doing that while winning a Selke is incredible.
So is winning the scoring title by a ridiculous margin on a trash team.

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09-06-2013, 07:46 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Back on topic, Fedorov's 2nd place finish (to Gretzky) is the highest finish by any Selke winner in history. The next highest is Datsyuk, who finished 4th twice winning the Selke: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=603565

As pointed out earlier, Fedorov was also 3rd in goals, with 4 fewer than the leader Pavel Bure. Brett Hull was 2nd.

And this was hardly a controversial Selke either, as Fedorov received 32 of 54 1st place votes.

SELKE: Sergei Fedorov 175 (32-6-3); Doug Gilmour 107 (8-20-7); Brian Skrudland 37 (4-3-8); Guy Carbonneau 29 (1-5-9); Adam Graves 19 (2-2-3); Ron Francis 17 (0-4-5); Igor Larionov 12 (1-2-1); Neal Broten 12 (0-3-3); Gary Roberts 11 (1-1-3); Kelly Miller 10 (2-0-0); Joel Otto 7 (1-0-2); Wayne Presley 7 (0-2-1); Steve Larmer 5 (1-0-0); Valeri Zelepukin 5 (1-0-0); Esa Tikkanen 4 (0-1-1); Rod Brind’Amour 3 (0-1-0); Gaetan Duchesne 3 (0-1-0); Patrick Flatley 3 (0-1-0); Dave Gagner 3 (0-1-0); Randy Wood 3 (0-1-1); Brent Sutter 3 (0-0-3) (4 3rd place votes missing & Randy Wood has 1 more than his point total warrants.)
Gretzky was older, had a bad back and was a shell of his former self, Lemieux only played about 20 games and then Jagr was just starting to come to his own and played 2nd line minutes so the scoring competition was weaker. Fedorov's season on the surface looks mighily impressive, 2nd in scoring, 120 Pts, Hart and Selke but then we start to peel the layers and we find out, it's not that impressive after all.

Was Fedorov that much more impressive in 1993-94 than Gilmour was in 1992-93 for instance?

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09-06-2013, 07:51 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Gretzky was older, had a bad back and was a shell of his former self, Lemieux only played about 20 games and then Jagr was just starting to come to his own and played 2nd line minutes so the scoring competition was weaker. Fedorov's season on the surface looks mighily impressive, 2nd in scoring, 120 Pts, Hart and Selke but then we start to peel the layers and we find out, it's not that impressive after all.
How did Gretzky and Lemieux do in 1998-99, again?

Quote:
Was Fedorov that much more impressive in 1993-94 than Gilmour was in 1992-93 for instance?
Strictly speaking regular season, yes. 2nd vs 7th in points. 3rd vs DNP in goals. Some people think Gilmour's Selke was something of a consolidation prize by writers who thought he deserved a trophy but couldn't vote him for the Hart over Lemieux (though Gilmour did win the Selke by a wide margin himself). I've rarely seen anyone say Feds didn't deserve the 1993-94 Selke (though I have seen complaining about Francis' 1994-95 Selke and Fedorov's 1995-96 Selke). Regular season + playoffs, Gilmour had one for the ages.

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09-06-2013, 08:07 PM
  #41
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I'm probably a bit biased, considering how much I loved Feds in his day, but I gotta go for 91.

These days, I have to consider what I want more: a sniper, a powerforward, or a strong two-way player to anchor the line. Seeing all three combined in one player to such fabulous success still gets me, every time. Selke defense with that offense is a flat-out winner.

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09-06-2013, 08:29 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
You are all crazy. Fedorov's defensive advantage all but destroys
Jag's offensive in their peak seasons. Prime you have a good argument, although Fed's four 20 pt. playoffs also matter somewhat.

And why didn't you actually post Fed's stats in the OP? Because it would be more impressive?
pretty much agree with all of thsi except the crazy comment.

interesting though that Feds had 6 more ES goals and 3 more PP goals, most would take Jagr as the better scorer.

Feds complete game is what wins it here for me.

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09-06-2013, 08:43 PM
  #43
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We are comparing Fedorov's peak season though to Jagr's peak season which is probably the best non-Lemieux season since 1993.

Context is important.

I ask you, who was more impressive in 2007-08, Ovechkin or Datsyuk?

This the same question but basically Fedorov or Jagr.

Fedorov had much more offensive support and his team scored more than 100 goals more than the Penguins did in 1998-99.

The difference in scoring overall also has to count for something. 1993-94 featured 6.48 GPG while 1998-99 featured 5.27, big difference.

So basically Fedorov's 120 Pts in 1993-94 is more like 90-100 Pts in 1998-99 with a defensive upside. Jagr was far and away the best player in the NHL in 1998-99 in a pretty strong season, the top 5 featured 1. Jagr, 2. Selanne, 3. Kayia, 4. Sakic, 5. Forsberg, so no lack of high end scoring (all Hall of Fame calibre player). What is lost in all this too is that Jagr beat out Hasek for the Hart in what was Hasek's peak season and considered by some as the greatest season ever put forth by a goaltender.

In 1993-94, Lemieux sat out most of the season and Gretzky was a shell of his former self. Yet Fedorov still lost the Art Ross by 10 Pts. I bet if Lemieux was there, Fedorov doesn't even get a sniff at the Hart.

Dats if your goal is trying to win hockey games, AO if it's a fantasy league.

AO had a great season but really Dats 2 way play more than makes up the 15 points difference IMO.

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09-06-2013, 08:55 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I remember Colin White, the biggest, baddest defenseman the Devils have had since Scott Stevens on his way to retrieving the puck in his own zone, see Ovechkin getting ready to hit him, brace himself, and get destroyed anyway. Ovechkin came up with the puck. How does that not help win hockey games? Malkin and Ovechkin (like Jagr) are both lazy back checkers.
Colin White, also not exactly a poised puck player either, limited hockey sense. But forgetting all that, like I said, Ovechkin on the forecheck was at least some semblance of forechecking, and therefore, defense, but I don't see that to any noteworthy degree anymore really. It's just the "ah, I tried the same failing move for the 12th time tonight and boy am I mad about it!" shove that means absolutely nothing to anyone (or, at least, it shouldn't)

Effective forechecking I'm all for.

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09-06-2013, 09:02 PM
  #45
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Not even close imo. Jagr's puck possession is a form of defense, defensive play is over rated around these parts. Jagr contributed to nearly 20% more of his teams scoring. You're right that it's not that close.


Feds has become one of the most over rated when discussing him on these boards. Jagrs peak >>> Feds.
I think just the opposite, defensive play is underrated by most.

I don't believe I said it's not that close. Rather a clear decision.

Never mentioned peak either. Only one season.


Last edited by Dennis Bonvie: 09-06-2013 at 09:08 PM.
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09-06-2013, 09:04 PM
  #46
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Colin White, also not exactly a poised puck player either, limited hockey sense. But forgetting all that, like I said, Ovechkin on the forecheck was at least some semblance of forechecking, and therefore, defense, but I don't see that to any noteworthy degree anymore really. It's just the "ah, I tried the same failing move for the 12th time tonight and boy am I mad about it!" shove that means absolutely nothing to anyone (or, at least, it shouldn't)

Effective forechecking I'm all for.
Though if you knock someone down after losing the puck that's at least one guy you will be able to beat back up the ice.

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09-06-2013, 09:09 PM
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Though if you knock someone down after losing the puck that's at least one guy you will be able to beat back up the ice.
They still beat Alex...

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09-06-2013, 09:57 PM
  #48
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I think you should recheck your stats.

In 1998-99 Jagr scored 82 evenstrength points of his 127 total points. He averaged PPG off 5-on-5 play alone. He was the runaway leader for 5-on-5 scoring.

2nd in evenstrength scoring was Sundin who finished with 67 5-on-5 points.

Jagr completely dominated his competition and Jagr's lower +/- is more attributed to his team's weaker overall defense and goaltending as we all know that Jagr probably has the greatest puck possession game of all time.
Oh, the stats are fine. I just don't think you've considered how many ES goals you have to be on the ice for, to have 82 ES points and only finish +17. Sundin was +22 with "just" 67 ES points? It was a fun stat showing that Jagr had a hand in 52% of his team's goals, but think of what percentage of his team's goals he must have been on the ice for, as well. It must be over 50% of the ES goals against, too, since they allowed 146 ES goals that year and surely Jagr was on the ice for goals he didn't figure into scoring-wise.

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09-06-2013, 10:11 PM
  #49
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Forsberg 95-96.

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09-06-2013, 10:44 PM
  #50
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Forsberg 95-96.
First of all this isn't about Forsberg and second of all, are we talking about the same Forsberg that was only 5th in scoring and a distant 33 Pts behind said Jagr?

Since we keep bringing up +/-, Jagr was +31 while Forsberg was +26.

Forsberg had 86 assists and 30 goals for 116 Pts while Jagr had 87 assists, 62 goals for 149 Pts.


Last edited by livewell68: 09-06-2013 at 10:54 PM.
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