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Whose peak season was better, Jagr in 1998-99 or Fedorov in 1993-94

View Poll Results: Better peak season, Jagr or Fedorov
Jagr's 1998-99 season 76 65.52%
Fedorov's 1993-94 season 40 34.48%
Voters: 116. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-08-2013, 06:48 PM
  #76
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
As for the 1999 playoffs you keep bringing up, sure Straka put up great numbers but take away the hattrick and his numbers don't look as impressive.
Yeah, obviously forgetting that a guy scored a hat trick without Jagr feeding him pucks makes your case stronger. Realizing that Jagr "the most dominant offensive force since Lemieux" didn't have a single hat trick himself the entire season, and that Straka got one without him, though...

He and Kovalev were absolutely as good/talented/productive as anyone that took a regular shift next to Fedorov in '93/94.

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09-08-2013, 06:50 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
A team that was top 8 GAA. Have you ever thought that maybe the reason why Jagr dominated the Habs was because he was a great player and not because they were a weak team?
Ever thought that maybe the reason almost every top scorer from both conferences scored at a higher rate against the Eastern conference is because it was an easier conference to score against?

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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
That Habs team made the playoffs btw.
Uh... nope. 75 points was not good enough to make the playoffs that year. Neither were Washington's 68.

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09-08-2013, 06:52 PM
  #78
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Fedorov was as good as Jagr offensively that year.....Blows him out of the water defensively. Jagr might be my favorite player, but Fed takes this one.

 
Old
09-08-2013, 07:20 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Ever thought that maybe the reason almost every top scorer from both conferences scored at a higher rate against the Eastern conference is because it was an easier conference to score against?



Uh... nope. 75 points was not good enough to make the playoffs that year. Neither were Washington's 68.
Quote:
1998-1999 - Regular Season - Skater - Summary - Points
Team GP W L T OT P P% G/G GA/G 5-5 F/A PP% PK% S/G SA/G Sc 1% Tr 1st% Ld 1% Ld 2% OS% OSB% FO%
1-27 of 27 results. 1
1 DALLAS 82 51 19 12 1 114 .695 2.88 2.05 1.19 18.8 86.5 27.6 24.0 .741 .393 .818 .844 .648 .560 53.2
2 NEW JERSEY 82 47 24 11 1 105 .640 3.02 2.39 0.75 19.7 85.5 31.3 24.7 .735 .333 .781 .841 .548 .533 50.0
3 OTTAWA 82 44 23 15 2 103 .628 2.92 2.18 1.20 14.8 86.1 30.5 25.2 .688 .324 .806 .889 .509 .583 48.3
4 COLORADO 82 44 28 10 0 98 .598 2.92 2.50 1.09 18.9 83.6 28.0 27.8 .683 .390 .808 .900 .625 .475 50.6
5 TORONTO 82 45 30 7 1 97 .591 3.27 2.82 1.33 14.4 80.3 28.3 28.8 .660 .400 .655 .925 .486 .628 50.0
6 DETROIT 82 43 32 7 1 93 .567 2.99 2.46 0.58 16.1 87.3 32.0 27.0 .694 .273 .743 .872 .542 .483 53.2
7 PHILADELPHIA 82 37 26 19 3 93 .567 2.82 2.39 1.01 16.8 84.0 29.9 22.9 .574 .286 .581 .744 .468 .429 55.4
8 BOSTON 82 39 30 13 2 91 .555 2.61 2.21 0.74 17.6 89.1 27.6 27.1 .718 .256 .714 .871 .421 .500 51.8
9 BUFFALO 82 37 28 17 3 91 .555 2.52 2.13 1.19 13.5 86.2 26.2 30.0 .795 .140 .840 .875 .414 .451 48.0
10 PHOENIX 82 39 31 12 1 90 .549 2.50 2.40 0.99 11.9 87.0 29.2 27.4 .659 .293 .630 .737 .381 .622 49.1
11 PITTSBURGH 82 38 30 14 1 90 .549 2.95 2.74 1.14 17.9 81.4 25.5 26.0 .643 .275 .655 .771 .429 .472 49.2
12 ST LOUIS 82 37 32 13 1 87 .530 2.89 2.55 1.12 20.2 87.8 30.1 22.8 .659 .211 .706 .743 .435 .533 52.2
13 CAROLINA 82 34 30 18 5 86 .524 2.56 2.46 0.92 10.9 85.2 26.1 29.3 .630 .139 .630 .758 .464 .417 49.6
14 ANAHEIM 82 35 34 13 3 83 .506 2.62 2.51 0.92 21.9 84.5 28.4 31.7 .643 .200 .618 .737 .367 .451 49.0
15 SAN JOSE 82 31 33 18 2 80 .488 2.39 2.33 1.35 13.2 85.0 26.1 27.0 .596 .086 .667 .793 .417 .333 47.4
16 EDMONTON 82 33 37 12 5 78 .476 2.80 2.76 1.05 14.3 82.0 29.2 27.1 .730 .133 .714 .800 .404 .370 48.5
17 FLORIDA 82 30 34 18 2 78 .476 2.56 2.78 1.23 13.4 81.8 28.1 28.7 .605 .159 .682 .821 .457 .295 44.9
18 NY RANGERS 82 33 38 11 3 77 .470 2.65 2.77 0.83 20.4 85.7 25.4 30.2 .600 .288 .640 .750 .458 .364 49.0
19 MONTREAL 82 32 39 11 4 75 .457 2.24 2.55 0.76 14.5 87.2 27.7 26.9 .628 .128 .714 .735 .447 .325 48.5
20 CALGARY 82 30 40 12 1 72 .439 2.57 2.85 0.96 14.2 79.7 28.6 29.5 .611 .174 .652 .750 .314 .357 47.7
21 CHICAGO 82 29 41 12 3 70 .427 2.46 3.02 0.96 14.9 80.2 26.2 29.3 .611 .152 .619 .833 .438 .319 51.5
22 LOS ANGELES 82 32 45 5 2 69 .421 2.30 2.71 1.18 13.1 85.7 28.3 30.0 .658 .159 .677 .821 .472 .349 50.2
23 WASHINGTON 82 31 45 6 3 68 .415 2.44 2.66 0.77 17.2 84.4 29.0 26.1 .667 .184 .727 .885 .460 .214 53.4
24 NASHVILLE 82 28 47 7 2 63 .384 2.32 3.18 1.00 12.3 78.9 27.1 33.0 .615 .214 .632 .708 .316 .345 51.3
25 NY ISLANDERS 82 24 48 10 6 58 .354 2.37 2.98 0.93 15.8 83.4 26.3 28.4 .553 .068 .563 .731 .250 .319 50.6
26 VANCOUVER 82 23 47 12 1 58 .354 2.34 3.15 1.27 15.9 82.8 23.7 29.4 .457 .149 .500 .773 .304 .281 50.2
27 TAMPA BAY 82 19 54 9 2 47 .287 2.18 3.56 0.77 13.8 82.4 26.0 32.1 .389 .109 .400 .571 .250 .254 47.1
It seems to me the better teams were in the Eastern Conference and not the other way around.

The Eastern Conference as a whole was a lower scoring conference with Jagr being the only Eastern Conference player in the top 5 in scoring with Selanne, Karyia (linemates), Sakic and Forsberg (linemates for most of 1998-99) rounding out the top 5. In 1998-99, 5 teams in the Eastern Conference allowed 200 goals or less, only 3 teams did that in the Western Conference. 5 of the top 8 GAA leaders among goalies were from the Eastern Conference. The East was a lower conference period.

11 of the 14 teams in the Eastern Conference allowed less than 230 goals while only 9 of the 13 teams in the West accomplished that feat.


Last edited by livewell68: 09-08-2013 at 07:47 PM.
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09-08-2013, 07:45 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by BudMovin View Post
Fedorov was as good as Jagr offensively that year.....Blows him out of the water defensively. Jagr might be my favorite player, but Fed takes this one.
Well the stats say different. Fedorov's 120 Pts (which was 10 behind the Art Ross winner) were only 13 points more than the NHL's 7th leading scorer.

Do you want me to bring up the stats of the NHL again in 1993-94? There were 8 players with 100 Pts or more, there were 21 players with 91 Pts or more (1 of the being a defenseman) 36 players total scored 80 Pts or more. The GPG (the goals per game) of the NHL in 1993-94 was 6.48.

In 1998-99 there were only 3 players with 100 Pts or more with 2 of them (Selanne and Karyia) playing on the same line. Jagr won the Art Ross by 20 points. Only 9 players managed to score 90 Pts or more and a total of 13 players scored 80 Pts or more. The GPG of the NHL in 1998-99 was 5.27.

Now tell me, how is scoring 120 Pts (with much more offensive help on his team) in a season that featured 1.21 GPG (goals per game) more as "good offensively" as scoring 127 Pts?

https://suite101.com/a/nhl-adjusted-...totals-a108996

This link has numbered the best adjusted seasons in NHL history with seasons that had 150 Pts or more adjusted.

Quote:
229 Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1992-93

224 Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1983-84

222 Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1988-89

220 Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1995-96

215 Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1985-86

212 Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1984-85

210 Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1981-82

201 Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1982-83

199 Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1986-87

198 Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1987-88

191 Phil Esposito, Boston Bruins, 1970-71

188 Wayne Gretzky, Los Angeles Kings, 1990-91

185 Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1987-88

183 Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1991-92

182 Wayne Gretzky, Los Angeles Kings, 1988-89

182 Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 2000-01

179 Phil Esposito, Boston Bruins, 1973-74

178 Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1989-90

175 Jaromir Jagr, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1995-96

174 Bobby Orr, Boston Bruins, 1970-71

174 Phil Esposito, Boston Bruins, 1971-72

171 Phil Esposito, Boston Bruins, 1968-69

171 - Jean Ratelle, New York Rangers, 1971-72

171 Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1980-81

169 Adam Oates, St. Louis Blues, 1990-91

167 Jaromir Jagr, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1998-99

165 Wayne Gretzky, Los Angeles Kings, 1989-90

163 Steve Yzerman, Detroit Red Wings, 1988-89

162 Bobby Orr, Boston Bruins, 1969-70

162 Mario Lemieux, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1996-97

160 Bernie Nicholls, Los Angeles Kings, 1988-89

159 Bobby Orr, Boston Bruins, 1973-74

159 Guy Lafleur, Montreal Canadiens, 1976-77

159 Guy Lafleur, Montreal Canadiens, 1977-78

159 Jaromir Jagr, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1999-00

158 Bryan Trottier, New York Islanders, 1978-79

157 Phil Esposito, Boston Bruins, 1972-73

157 Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, 1979-80

155 Gordie Howe, Detroit Red Wings, 1952-53

155 Guy Lafleur, Montreal Canadiens, 1974-75

155 Bobby Orr, Boston Bruins, 1974-75

155 Marcel Dionne, Los Angeles Kings, 1979-80

155 Jaromir Jagr, Pittsburgh Penguins, 2000-01

154 Bobby Orr, Boston Bruins, 1971-72

154 Eric Lindros, Philadelphia Flyers, 1996-97

152 Jaromir Jagr, Pittsburgh Penguins, 1996-97

152 Sidney Crosby, Pittsburgh Penguins, 2006-07

151 Bobby Orr, Boston Bruins, 1972-73

151 Bryan Trottier, New York Islanders, 1977-78

151 Jari Kurri, Edmonton Oilers, 1984-85

151 Brett Hull, St. Louis Blues, 1990-91

151 Pat LaFontaine, Buffalo Sabres, 1992-93

151 Wayne Gretzky, Los Angeles Kings, 1993-94

151 Eric Lindros, Philadelphia Flyers, 1994-95

151 Eric Lindros, Philadelphia Flyers, 1995-96

150 Joe Thornton, San Jose Sharks, 2005-06

150 - Jaromir Jagr, New York Rangers, 2005-06
Jagr's 1998-99 season was "by far" better than Fedorov's season "offensively" in context when we consider overall league scoring, linemates, teammates and opposition.

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09-08-2013, 08:04 PM
  #81
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Jagr, and I have my reasons.

For starters he wins the Art Ross Trophy by 20 points. He dominates the competition. Selanne finishes second. Fedorov loses the Art Ross by 10 points. This is a 1994 Gretzky compared to a 1999 Selanne that, for all intents and purposes is rather close from an offensive standpoint (I think we can agree a prime Selanne is similar offensively to a Gretzky on the decline). So Jagr has that in his back pocket.

Now, I know Fedorov also won the Selke and has Jagr trumped on the defensive side of the coin. No question about that one. But let's look at just how far Jagr carried that Pens team. He was clearly carrying that team on his back and we haven't seen that type of thing since. This adds to his MVP win in my books. The Pens revolved around how Jagr would perform, period. In 1994 the Red Wings still had Coffey, Yzerman and the greatest coach of all-time. I'm not saying this goes against Fedorov, but I am saying that it adds more fuel for Jagr that he did more with less.

Throw in the fact that 1994 was a higher scoring season as well. 127 in 1999 vs. 120 in 1994. The difference is big for Jagr and can Fedorov's defense make up for that. I don't think it can. Considering the fact that in my mind Jagr was more feared and more dangerous when he was on the ice. I remember the 1999 playoffs when the Pens played the Leafs. I remember clearly breathing a sigh of relief every time Jagr skated towards the bench to change because then, in my own mind, the Penguins didn't pose a threat to score. Sound silly? Not really because the Pens scored 242 goals that year, so..........

Jagr's 127 points meant he was in on 52.4% of their goals. That is just insane folks. You can't buy that kind of dominance and it is comparable to the all-time best of Lemieux's in 1989 (57%). 2nd leading Selke trophy winner in 1994 or not, Jagr had the better player and was more feared.

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09-08-2013, 08:21 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Jagr, and I have my reasons.

For starters he wins the Art Ross Trophy by 20 points. He dominates the competition. Selanne finishes second. Fedorov loses the Art Ross by 10 points. This is a 1994 Gretzky compared to a 1999 Selanne that, for all intents and purposes is rather close from an offensive standpoint (I think we can agree a prime Selanne is similar offensively to a Gretzky on the decline). So Jagr has that in his back pocket.
i'm only responding to this one detail: i absolutely do not agree with that.

let's take out fedorov and jagr completely. '94 gretzky outpaced peak oates, gilmour, and bure by about 20 points each. i'd argue that even if we grant that peak selanne is probably a little better offensively than peak oates, gilmour, and bure, i can't imagine selanne beginning to approach the rate at which gretzky outpointed those guys-- during their respective best offensive stretches, no less. peak selanne's closer to those three guys that '94 gretzky blew away than he is to '94 gretzky.

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09-08-2013, 08:27 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i'm only responding to this one detail: i absolutely do not agree with that.

let's take out fedorov and jagr completely. '94 gretzky outpaced peak oates, gilmour, and bure by about 20 points each. i'd argue that even if we grant that peak selanne is probably a little better offensively than peak oates, gilmour, and bure, i can't imagine selanne beginning to approach the rate at which gretzky outpointed those guys-- during their respective best offensive stretches, no less. peak selanne's closer to those three guys that '94 gretzky blew away than he is to '94 gretzky.
Alright fine, I don't want to derail the point of this thread, I'll agree Selanne in 1999 is closer to Bure, Gilmour Oates, etc. in 1994. But to be honest, Gretzky himself was starting to come down to that level by that point of his career. He wasn't THAT much better offensively than the rest of the field at that time. I don't think a 1994 Gretzky outpoints a 1999 Jagr either. In fact, he barely did and if we take into account the drop in scoring, it is clear to me a 1994 Gretzky can't beat Jagr anyway. Making him at least comparable to Selanne in 1999 even if he is still a bit better.

1991 Gretzky? Sure, and of course anytime before that. But I wouldn't bet on a 1994 Gretzky doing it.

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09-08-2013, 08:31 PM
  #84
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Had to think about this one for a while, but ended up going with Fedorov by a hair.

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09-08-2013, 08:38 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Alright fine, I don't want to derail the point of this thread, I'll agree Selanne in 1999 is closer to Bure, Gilmour Oates, etc. in 1994. But to be honest, Gretzky himself was starting to come down to that level by that point of his career. He wasn't THAT much better offensively than the rest of the field at that time. I don't think a 1994 Gretzky outpoints a 1999 Jagr either. In fact, he barely did and if we take into account the drop in scoring, it is clear to me a 1994 Gretzky can't beat Jagr anyway. Making him at least comparable to Selanne in 1999 even if he is still a bit better.

1991 Gretzky? Sure, and of course anytime before that. But I wouldn't bet on a 1994 Gretzky doing it.
i agree with most of that. '99 jagr is probably a bit better offensively than '94 gretzky (but jagr wouldn't blow gretzky away the way he did selanne and the rest of the field; it would be a legitimate race).

but i think this is actually kind of important to hash out in this thread, not a derail. taking fedorov and jagr out of their respective scoring races, how do we evaluate their competition in relation to one another? '99 selanne > '94 oates, but not by much. maybe that selanne would have put up 115 points in '94? and if we then convert '94 fedorov to the '99 scoring race, using selanne as a touchstone, fedorov would be... i don't know, around 110 points? it helps us gauge the degree to which jagr blows him away offensively, at the same time as it reminds us that fedorov was really freakin' offensively great that one year. like, probably better than peak selanne great.

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09-08-2013, 09:08 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
It seems to me the better teams were in the Eastern Conference and not the other way around.

The Eastern Conference as a whole was a lower scoring conference with Jagr being the only Eastern Conference player in the top 5 in scoring with Selanne, Karyia (linemates), Sakic and Forsberg (linemates for most of 1998-99) rounding out the top 5. In 1998-99, 5 teams in the Eastern Conference allowed 200 goals or less, only 3 teams did that in the Western Conference. 5 of the top 8 GAA leaders among goalies were from the Eastern Conference. The East was a lower conference period.

11 of the 14 teams in the Eastern Conference allowed less than 230 goals while only 9 of the 13 teams in the West accomplished that feat.
The Eastern conference was a lower scoring conference because it was a lower talent conference. Seems to me like the West got more players on post-season 1st team all-star squads, for one. Seems like the top scorers from the West were better, too. Going down the top scorers list, top 10 from the East separate from top 10 from the West:

East:
Jagr, Yashin, Lindros, Leclair, Straka, Sundin, Allison, Thomas, Sykora, Khristich

West:
Selanne, Kariya, Forsberg, Sakic, Fleury, Demitra, Modano, Amonte, Robitaille, Yzerman

Next we can do top 10 goalies (with at least half of team's games played) by SV% (why quote GAA, a team stat?):

East:
Hasek, Dafoe, Tugnutt, Irbe, Joseph, Richter, Burke, Brodeur, Rhodes, Beezer

West:
Khabibulin, Hebert, Roy, Belfour, Fiset, Vernon, Osgood, Dunham, Snow, Kolzig

Everyone's '98/99, specifically, aside for a moment, which group would you like to rather have in an all-star game? Guess which list proved far more capable over their careers of racking up points regardless of teams OR goalies? Anyone who watched a lot of hockey in the late 90s knew that Detroit, Colorado, and Dallas were THE powerhouse teams, along with the Devils, in fairness, who represented the most consistent best of the East.

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09-08-2013, 09:54 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
The Eastern conference was a lower scoring conference because it was a lower talent conference. Seems to me like the West got more players on post-season 1st team all-star squads, for one. Seems like the top scorers from the West were better, too. Going down the top scorers list, top 10 from the East separate from top 10 from the West:

East:
Jagr, Yashin, Lindros, Leclair, Straka, Sundin, Allison, Thomas, Sykora, Khristich

West:
Selanne, Kariya, Forsberg, Sakic, Fleury, Demitra, Modano, Amonte, Robitaille, Yzerman

Next we can do top 10 goalies (with at least half of team's games played) by SV% (why quote GAA, a team stat?):

East:
Hasek, Dafoe, Tugnutt, Irbe, Joseph, Richter, Burke, Brodeur, Rhodes, Beezer

West:
Khabibulin, Hebert, Roy, Belfour, Fiset, Vernon, Osgood, Dunham, Snow, Kolzig

Everyone's '98/99, specifically, aside for a moment, which group would you like to rather have in an all-star game? Guess which list proved far more capable over their careers of racking up points regardless of teams OR goalies? Anyone who watched a lot of hockey in the late 90s knew that Detroit, Colorado, and Dallas were THE powerhouse teams, along with the Devils, in fairness, who represented the most consistent best of the East.
The 2 leading vote getters for the Hart along with Hasek, all 3 Hart candidates were from the East, in fact the 4th leading vote getter was Cujo who was also from the East. As for the scoring leaders argument, isn't a coincidence that 4 of the top players all played on just 2 teams and played on 2 lines?

You're grasping on to straws here, more and more your argument is looking weak; every time I bring you a stat or fact that completely shoots down your argument, you come back with something that is far less based on fact than it is on opinion.

Ottawa, Philadelphia, New Jersey and Toronto were all teams that could give the West a run for its money in 1998-99. You argument about the Eastern Conference being weaker has no basis.


Last edited by livewell68: 09-08-2013 at 10:15 PM.
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09-08-2013, 10:02 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
The Eastern conference was a lower scoring conference because it was a lower talent conference. Seems to me like the West got more players on post-season 1st team all-star squads, for one. Seems like the top scorers from the West were better, too. Going down the top scorers list, top 10 from the East separate from top 10 from the West:

East:
Jagr, Yashin, Lindros, Leclair, Straka, Sundin, Allison, Thomas, Sykora, Khristich

West:
Selanne, Kariya, Forsberg, Sakic, Fleury, Demitra, Modano, Amonte, Robitaille, Yzerman

Next we can do top 10 goalies (with at least half of team's games played) by SV% (why quote GAA, a team stat?):

East:
Hasek, Dafoe, Tugnutt, Irbe, Joseph, Richter, Burke, Brodeur, Rhodes, Beezer

West:
Khabibulin, Hebert, Roy, Belfour, Fiset, Vernon, Osgood, Dunham, Snow, Kolzig

Everyone's '98/99, specifically, aside for a moment, which group would you like to rather have in an all-star game? Guess which list proved far more capable over their careers of racking up points regardless of teams OR goalies? Anyone who watched a lot of hockey in the late 90s knew that Detroit, Colorado, and Dallas were THE powerhouse teams, along with the Devils, in fairness, who represented the most consistent best of the East.
Knowing how good those players all were, I would definitely pick the players from the Eastern conference over the Western conference.

BTW, Kolzig played in the East (Washington).

1998-99 was Hasek at his peak, then add Joseph, Brodeur, Dafoe and Kolzig and the list is impressive for the East goaltenders.

This is what the Vezina voting looked liked in 1998-99:

Quote:
1998-99 4th in Vezina Voting
VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 73 (8-10-3); Curtis Joseph 64 (10-4-2); Byron Dafoe 58 (8-4-6); Martin Brodeur 17 (1-1-9); Ron Tugnutt 13 (0-4-1); Guy Hebert 7 (0-2-1); Ed Belfour 5 (0-1-2); Arturs Irbe 1 (0-0-1); Patrick Roy 1 (0-0-1)
The top 5 candidates for the Vezina were all from the East (the same goalies that Jagr had to face more often than Selanne, Karyia, Forsberg and Sakic had to face) while Irbe was another Eastern conference goaltender (from the so-called weak Southeast division) that finished in the top 8 in Vezina voting. 6 of the top 8 goaltenders were all from the East.

That Western conference list is basically Roy (who was not playing his best individual hockey at this point), Belfour and a bunch of players that will never see their name being inducted into the HHOF.

In 1998-99 the West had 3 elite teams (Detroit, Colorado and Dallas) and a bunch of middle pack teams while the East had New Jersey, Philadelphia, Toronto and Ottawa who were elite.


Last edited by livewell68: 09-08-2013 at 10:12 PM.
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09-08-2013, 10:48 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by BudMovin View Post
Fedorov was as good as Jagr offensively that year
I'd love to see the reasoning behind this statement.

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09-08-2013, 11:03 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
In 1994 the Red Wings still had Coffey, Yzerman and the greatest coach of all-time. I'm not saying this goes against Fedorov, but I am saying that it adds more fuel for Jagr that he did more with less.
And I will disagree with this. Yzerman was out for most of that season. There was not one journalist in 1994 who would not say that Fedorov carried that team on his back. The whole team, outside of Coffey, was fairly inexperienced and haven't entered its prime yet.

Being 2nd in scoring to Gretzky and winning a Selke is practically unheard of. Certainly not since the days of Bobby Clarke, who was not really a perennial scoring leader himself. I seriously don't know what else to say. It's astounding for how little the two-way play (and being as complete of a player as it gets) accounts here. In fact, I can't believe Beliveau is valued as high as he is here.

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09-08-2013, 11:21 PM
  #91
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In 1998-99 the West had 3 elite teams (Detroit, Colorado and Dallas) and a bunch of middle pack teams while the East had New Jersey, Philadelphia, Toronto and Ottawa who were elite.
Now, which of these teams, between 1995 and 2003 have won the Stanley Cup? That's right, only New Jersey plus three powerhouses from the West. In the DPE the only money teams were these four. Nobody would place a wager on Ottawa, Toronto, Washington, or Buffalo, no matter how good CuJo, Kolzig, or Hasek were. Philadelphia's Legion of Doom had a chance... but not with that goaltending. The Cup always ended up in the West or in Jersey.

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09-08-2013, 11:35 PM
  #92
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And I will disagree with this. Yzerman was out for most of that season. There was not one journalist in 1994 who would not say that Fedorov carried that team on his back. The whole team, outside of Coffey, was fairly inexperienced and haven't entered its prime yet.

Being 2nd in scoring to Gretzky and winning a Selke is practically unheard of. Certainly not since the days of Bobby Clarke, who was not really a perennial scoring leader himself. I seriously don't know what else to say. It's astounding for how little the two-way play (and being as complete of a player as it gets) accounts here. In fact, I can't believe Beliveau is valued as high as he is here.
There's a difference between valuing two-way play and making a fetish of it. No matter how good a two-way player the likes of Messier or Federov or Lindros ect were they weren't as valuable as Gretzky or Lemieux. You take these things on a case by case basis rather than making the two-way play fetish the sole measuring stick.

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09-09-2013, 12:34 AM
  #93
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There's a difference between valuing two-way play and making a fetish of it. No matter how good a two-way player the likes of Messier or Federov or Lindros ect were they weren't as valuable as Gretzky or Lemieux. You take these things on a case by case basis rather than making the two-way play fetish the sole measuring stick.
Having said that, a big difference between Jagr and those two is that Wayne and Mario each have individual seasons with as many SH goals as Jagr's career tally, so it's a lot easier to make the "offense as the best defense" case, for example. I'm sure the SH TOI/game or whatever would provide similar support.

But honestly, it's hard not to notice the relative fortunes of contemporary teams (especially in the DPE) whose "best skater(s)" was(/were) extremely proficient at both offense and defense vs teams that featured more "one-dimensional"/primarily offensive stars. Compare the relative successes of Detroit (Yzerman/Fedorov), Colorado (Sakic/Forsberg), Dallas (Modano/Nieuwendyk), and NJ (take your pick) vs teams who offered little beyond potent offense such as Anaheim (Selanne/Kariya), the Blues (between the Gilmour/Federko days and the Demitra/Tkachuk/Weight days), etc.

But this isn't even Gretzky vs Lemieux vs Fedorov vs Jagr vs Forsberg as players - it's a comparison of individual seasons.

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09-09-2013, 12:48 AM
  #94
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Having said that, a big difference between Jagr and those two is that Wayne and Mario each have individual seasons with as many SH goals as Jagr's career tally, so it's a lot easier to make the "offense as the best defense" case, for example. I'm sure the SH TOI/game or whatever would provide similar support.

But honestly, it's hard not to notice the relative fortunes of contemporary teams (especially in the DPE) whose "best skater(s)" was(/were) extremely proficient at both offense and defense vs teams that featured more "one-dimensional"/primarily offensive stars. Compare the relative successes of Detroit (Yzerman/Fedorov), Colorado (Sakic/Forsberg), Dallas (Modano/Nieuwendyk), and NJ (take your pick) vs teams who offered little beyond potent offense such as Anaheim (Selanne/Kariya), the Blues (between the Gilmour/Federko days and the Demitra/Tkachuk/Weight days), etc.

But this isn't even Gretzky vs Lemieux vs Fedorov vs Jagr vs Forsberg as players - it's a comparison of individual seasons.
The problem is, though, the Federov season that's being compared to Jagr's isn't a DPE season while Jagr's is. Does Federov's defense make up for the clear gap between his non-DPE season numbers and Jagr's DPE season numbers? I certainly don't think so.

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09-09-2013, 12:52 AM
  #95
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Knowing how good those players all were, I would definitely pick the players from the Eastern conference over the Western conference.
Really? Not me.

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This is what the Vezina voting looked liked in 1998-99:

The top 5 candidates for the Vezina were all from the East (the same goalies that Jagr had to face more often than Selanne, Karyia, Forsberg and Sakic had to face) while Irbe was another Eastern conference goaltender (from the so-called weak Southeast division) that finished in the top 8 in Vezina voting. 6 of the top 8 goaltenders were all from the East.
I imagine I could generate the same list without even watching a single game, maybe even in order, by simply ranking goalies in '98/99 by GP and GAA and assigning 50% value to each. How many years do you reckon we can semi-reliably rank goalies in order of "best" to "worst" using just GP or GAA, or even both?

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In 1998-99 the West had 3 elite teams (Detroit, Colorado and Dallas) and a bunch of middle pack teams while the East had New Jersey, Philadelphia, Toronto and Ottawa who were elite.
Toronto was "elite" in '98/99? Sundin certainly, and Joseph, maybe. After Sundin and Thomas (elite? ), their leading scorers were Berezin, King, Korolev, Johnson, Sullivan, Modin, lol. And who led Maple Leafs defensemen in TOI/game, again? They got some points in the standings though, that's for sure.

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09-09-2013, 01:48 AM
  #96
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The problem is, though, the Federov season that's being compared to Jagr's isn't a DPE season while Jagr's is. Does Federov's defense make up for the clear gap between his non-DPE season numbers and Jagr's DPE season numbers? I certainly don't think so.
Sure, why not? I mean, I haven't voted either way because I obviously think it does a great job of filling in "the gap". Are points the only way of measuring and comparing players, or is the difference in effectiveness we witnessed at the time allowed to carry weight at all? Doesn't it make a difference when one guy likely had over 25% more ice time (including 6+ mins/night on the PP) with which to score those points? I believe scoring was down 20% in '98/99 compared to '93/94, right?

I watched the Penguins score lots of goals in playoffs following their back-to-back Cups, and don't remember being as impressed with the overall play or results as the season I watched the first time I saw a Hart winner also take the Selke home a few years earlier. H.N.I.C. was my main portal to everything NHL during the '90s, though, so who knows how much that impacts everything.

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09-09-2013, 02:26 AM
  #97
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And I will disagree with this. Yzerman was out for most of that season. There was not one journalist in 1994 who would not say that Fedorov carried that team on his back. The whole team, outside of Coffey, was fairly inexperienced and haven't entered its prime yet.

Being 2nd in scoring to Gretzky and winning a Selke is practically unheard of. Certainly not since the days of Bobby Clarke, who was not really a perennial scoring leader himself. I seriously don't know what else to say. It's astounding for how little the two-way play (and being as complete of a player as it gets) accounts here. In fact, I can't believe Beliveau is valued as high as he is here.
Yzerman played 58 games that year and Coffey scored 77 points. Throw in other names like Sheppard, Primeau, Ciccarelli and Kozlov and this team was pretty good, even if they were not past that "choker" label yet.

This isn't something I like to hold against Fedorov, because I am not saying he didn't carry the Wings that year, but I am saying he didn't carry his team to the extent that Jagr did in 1999. That is just a whole other ballgame right there.

Jagr 127
Straka 83
Titov 56
Kovalev 46

That is just insane right there. Nothing wrong with Straka, but he isn't a point per game player without Jagr. I will repeat, Jagr was in on 52% of Pittsburgh's goals that year. Despite a Selke effort by Fedorov, a 1999 Jagr is just one of those years that are an exception to most other years. 14 years later no one has scored that many points in a season since. That's impressive. So we aren't comparing Fedorov to just any normal Art Ross winning season either, which is why even his two-way play couldn't make up for this.

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09-09-2013, 03:57 AM
  #98
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Agreed with Big Phil. Jagr's Art Ross that year is one of the most impressive scoring race wins ever. He was the man that year. Offensively, clearly ahead of Feds in his Hart year.

But the more I read about this thread the more I see gap narrowing between these two season's. Look, I am the first to say that defensive play by forwards gets grossly overrated here. But the fact of the matter is that defensive play does bring some value in to the player. Considering Fedorov lost his Art Ross to Gretzky it's almost like he won the scoring race. Along with Selke and Hart. Season of the ages too.

I am still leaning towards Jagr but I see myself doubting this decision.

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09-09-2013, 06:23 AM
  #99
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Yzerman played 58 games that year and Coffey scored 77 points. Throw in other names like Sheppard, Primeau, Ciccarelli and Kozlov and this team was pretty good, even if they were not past that "choker" label yet.

This isn't something I like to hold against Fedorov, because I am not saying he didn't carry the Wings that year, but I am saying he didn't carry his team to the extent that Jagr did in 1999. That is just a whole other ballgame right there.

Jagr 127
Straka 83
Titov 56
Kovalev 46

That is just insane right there. Nothing wrong with Straka, but he isn't a point per game player without Jagr. I will repeat, Jagr was in on 52% of Pittsburgh's goals that year. Despite a Selke effort by Fedorov, a 1999 Jagr is just one of those years that are an exception to most other years. 14 years later no one has scored that many points in a season since. That's impressive. So we aren't comparing Fedorov to just any normal Art Ross winning season either, which is why even his two-way play couldn't make up for this.
Ray Sheppard is worse than Straka Kozlov was 21, Primeau 22 and Dino only played 66 games.

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09-09-2013, 07:50 AM
  #100
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Considering Fedorov lost his Art Ross to Gretzky it's almost like he won the scoring race. Along with Selke and Hart. Season of the ages too.
If you put any stock into adjustments by average scoring level - Jagr would have beaten 1994 Gretzky by a handy margin as well.

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