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Whose peak season was better, Jagr in 1998-99 or Fedorov in 1993-94

View Poll Results: Better peak season, Jagr or Fedorov
Jagr's 1998-99 season 76 65.52%
Fedorov's 1993-94 season 40 34.48%
Voters: 116. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-09-2013, 07:34 AM
  #101
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Sure, why not? I mean, I haven't voted either way because I obviously think it does a great job of filling in "the gap". Are points the only way of measuring and comparing players, or is the difference in effectiveness we witnessed at the time allowed to carry weight at all? Doesn't it make a difference when one guy likely had over 25% more ice time (including 6+ mins/night on the PP) with which to score those points? I believe scoring was down 20% in '98/99 compared to '93/94, right?

I watched the Penguins score lots of goals in playoffs following their back-to-back Cups, and don't remember being as impressed with the overall play or results as the season I watched the first time I saw a Hart winner also take the Selke home a few years earlier. H.N.I.C. was my main portal to everything NHL during the '90s, though, so who knows how much that impacts everything.
Well one would think that one of the all time greats offensively, would have a better season with that kind of ice time, no doubt feds would have scored more than Wayne playing 25 MPG right?

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Yzerman played 58 games that year and Coffey scored 77 points. Throw in other names like Sheppard, Primeau, Ciccarelli and Kozlov and this team was pretty good, even if they were not past that "choker" label yet.

This isn't something I like to hold against Fedorov, because I am not saying he didn't carry the Wings that year, but I am saying he didn't carry his team to the extent that Jagr did in 1999. That is just a whole other ballgame right there.

Jagr 127
Straka 83
Titov 56
Kovalev 46

That is just insane right there. Nothing wrong with Straka, but he isn't a point per game player without Jagr. I will repeat, Jagr was in on 52% of Pittsburgh's goals that year. Despite a Selke effort by Fedorov, a 1999 Jagr is just one of those years that are an exception to most other years. 14 years later no one has scored that many points in a season since. That's impressive. So we aren't comparing Fedorov to just any normal Art Ross winning season either, which is why even his two-way play couldn't make up for this.
I can't wait to hear your arguments on how great these guys were in the top 60 centers and wingers lists, or at least those that make it.

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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Ray Sheppard is worse than Straka Kozlov was 21, Primeau 22 and Dino only played 66 games.
Well why let the facts of the matter actually get in the way of an argument?

The fact is that Feds took a very young Detroit on his shoulders that year at both ends of the ice and if his name, and career effort was that of Bobby Clarke people would be saying how it was a season for the ages.



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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
If you put any stock into adjustments by average scoring level - Jagr would have beaten 1994 Gretzky by a handy margin as well.
Perhaps a Jagr was better than Wayne in seasons A, B and C thread is in order?

Look Jagr was an extremely gifted offensive talent, whose size and skill set wasn't deterred by the "clutch and grab era" as the puck wasn't dead, but he has his warts on his career as well.

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Old
09-09-2013, 09:02 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I can't wait to hear your arguments on how great these guys were in the top 60 centers and wingers lists, or at least those that make it.
I don't think anything of the sort was being implied.

There is no reasonable way to argue that Jagr had as much help as Fedorov did, though.

Quote:
Well why let the facts of the matter actually get in the way of an argument?
I agree that dropping names like Primeau and Kozlov doesn't really help the argument but really.. see above.

Quote:
The fact is that Feds took a very young Detroit on his shoulders that year at both ends of the ice and if his name, and career effort was that of Bobby Clarke people would be saying how it was a season for the ages.
I think everyone agrees it is a season for the ages already. However it is pretty tough to conclude that he did more for that Detroit club than Jagr did for a weaker Pens club.


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Perhaps a Jagr was better than Wayne in seasons A, B and C thread is in order?
I don't think that is necessary and I also don't think it is much of a stretch for most people to understand that 127 points in 98-99 > 130 points in 93-94.

Quote:
Look Jagr was an extremely gifted offensive talent, whose size and skill set wasn't deterred by the "clutch and grab era" as the puck wasn't dead, but he has his warts on his career as well.
I don't think it is true that his skill set wasn't deterred by the clutch and grab era. He was lighter and quicker when he was younger and bulked up during the DPE. For sure he wasn't affected as much as some smaller forwards because of doing that, but I don't see how you can say having people waterskiing behind you all the time doesn't deter your offensive production.

And most players have warts on their career. However, since we're talking about single seasons here.. who cares?

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Old
09-09-2013, 09:19 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post

But honestly, it's hard not to notice the relative fortunes of contemporary teams (especially in the DPE) whose "best skater(s)" was(/were) extremely proficient at both offense and defense vs teams that featured more "one-dimensional"/primarily offensive stars. Compare the relative successes of Detroit (Yzerman/Fedorov), Colorado (Sakic/Forsberg), Dallas (Modano/Nieuwendyk), and NJ (take your pick) vs teams who offered little beyond potent offense such as Anaheim (Selanne/Kariya), the Blues (between the Gilmour/Federko days and the Demitra/Tkachuk/Weight days), etc.
I was going to say exactly the same thing. Two-way forwards win you Cups. Even now every Cup winner in the past few years had a Selke-caliber player, while Ovechkin's Caps don't go anywhere. But the 90s were premier time for teams with players like Fedorov, not like Jagr.


Last edited by Sentinel: 09-09-2013 at 09:32 AM.
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09-09-2013, 09:42 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I was going to say exactly the same thing. Two-way forwards win you Cups. Even now every Cup winner in the past few years had a Selke-caliber player, while Ovechkin's Caps don't go anywhere. But the 90s were premier time for teams with players like Fedorov, not like Jagr.
Yet Fedorovs two-way prowess resulted in one of the biggest 1st round upsets of all time in this one season we are talking about, while the Pens pulled a heavy upset on the Devils.

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09-09-2013, 09:56 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I was going to say exactly the same thing. Two-way forwards win you Cups. Even now every Cup winner in the past few years had a Selke-caliber player, while Ovechkin's Caps don't go anywhere. But the 90s were premier time for teams with players like Fedorov, not like Jagr.
In Fedorov's vastly overrated playoff resume, he was under PPG in 2 of his 4, 20 + Pts playoff runs.

As for 1993-94, Fedorov's 1st seed team lost to the 8th seed.

Jagr's 1998-99 team pulled off one of the biggest 1st round upsets in NHL history by beating the powerhouse Devils.

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Old
09-09-2013, 10:01 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post

But honestly, it's hard not to notice the relative fortunes of contemporary teams (especially in the DPE) whose "best skater(s)" was(/were) extremely proficient at both offense and defense vs teams that featured more "one-dimensional"/primarily offensive stars. Compare the relative successes of Detroit (Yzerman/Fedorov), Colorado (Sakic/Forsberg), Dallas (Modano/Nieuwendyk), and NJ (take your pick) vs teams who offered little beyond potent offense such as Anaheim (Selanne/Kariya), the Blues (between the Gilmour/Federko days and the Demitra/Tkachuk/Weight days), etc.
I was going to say exactly the same thing. Two-way forwards win you Cups. Even now, every Cup winner in the past few years had a Selke-caliber player, while Ovechkin's Caps don't go anywhere. But the 90s was a premier time for teams with players like Fedorov, not like Jagr.


Last edited by Sentinel: 09-09-2013 at 11:06 AM.
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09-09-2013, 10:02 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i agree with most of that. '99 jagr is probably a bit better offensively than '94 gretzky (but jagr wouldn't blow gretzky away the way he did selanne and the rest of the field; it would be a legitimate race).

but i think this is actually kind of important to hash out in this thread, not a derail. taking fedorov and jagr out of their respective scoring races, how do we evaluate their competition in relation to one another? '99 selanne > '94 oates, but not by much. maybe that selanne would have put up 115 points in '94? and if we then convert '94 fedorov to the '99 scoring race, using selanne as a touchstone, fedorov would be... i don't know, around 110 points? it helps us gauge the degree to which jagr blows him away offensively, at the same time as it reminds us that fedorov was really freakin' offensively great that one year. like, probably better than peak selanne great.
*spit-take*

Why would the adjustment for 1994 to 1999 scoring be only 8 points? Given the fact that the 1994 season is already 2 games longer, you're basically saying the adjustment is a little under 6 points over 82 games which doesn't fall in line with the differences at #5 (13 points), #10 (10 points), #15 (12 points) or #20 (19 points). Saying that Fedorov's peak offense is better than that of the player who outpaced 1999 Jagr in per minute scoring (but played 350 fewer ES/PP minutes) doesn't jive with reality. Surely peak Fedorov isn't putting up that level of offense when Jagr and Selanne were basically going all-out to score every 15-16 minutes.

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Old
09-09-2013, 10:45 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
In Fedorov's vastly overrated playoff resume, he was under PPG in 2 of his 4, 20 + Pts playoff runs.
Pretty big fail. What does PPG in the playoffs of the DPE show? That Fedorov led the post season in assists, and had double the points if Yzerman in '95? That the only people who scored more in '96 played on the powerplay with either Lemieux or Sakic/Forsberg (Fedorov still led the post season in assists THAT year, too, btw)? Fedorov also accounted for +8 of his team's cumulative +17 that year. Fedorov led the post season in GWG in '97, and generated more shots than anyone not named Shanahan. Only 3 people were over a PPG in the '98 playoffs. Etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
As for 1993-94, Fedorov's 1st seed team lost to the 8th seed.

Jagr's 1998-99 team pulled off one of the biggest 1st round upsets in NHL history by beating the powerhouse Devils.
Yeah, and the Pens built a 2-1 series lead without Jagr in the lineup. Points vs NJ in round 1:

Straka: 11
Kovalev: 10
Jagr: 5


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 09-09-2013 at 11:27 AM.
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09-09-2013, 10:48 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Well one would think that one of the all time greats offensively, would have a better season with that kind of ice time, no doubt feds would have scored more than Wayne playing 25 MPG right?
Well, if part of getting Fedorov up to 25 mins/night involved giving him the 2+ extra minutes of powerplay every night to equal Jagr's average of over 6 (Fedorov typically in the 3-4 PP min/night range throughout his time in Detroit), just maybe.

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09-09-2013, 11:08 AM
  #110
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Fedorov becomes new Mr. Overrated...bye, bye Forsberg.

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09-09-2013, 11:12 AM
  #111
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More like "Mr. Underrated," if we go by this poll's results. Two-way play that wins your team first place in the conference means squat. All-out gunning that gives your team eighth place in the conference ranks higher.

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09-09-2013, 11:36 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
In Fedorov's vastly overrated playoff resume, he was under PPG in 2 of his 4, 20 + Pts playoff runs.

As for 1993-94, Fedorov's 1st seed team lost to the 8th seed.

Jagr's 1998-99 team pulled off one of the biggest 1st round upsets in NHL history by beating the powerhouse Devils.
This is just hilarious... Jagr didnt even play in two of those wins against the devils

What people are saying here is basically it wouldve been more impressive if Fedorov said "SCREW DEFENSE" and won the art ross instead of the selke and had the Wings end up as bottom seed.

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09-09-2013, 11:42 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
If you put any stock into adjustments by average scoring level - Jagr would have beaten 1994 Gretzky by a handy margin as well.
Yes, that is why I said Jagr was better offensively. Clearly better.

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09-09-2013, 11:43 AM
  #114
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This is just hilarious... Jagr didnt even play in two of those wins against the devils
And Kovalev/Straka proved they were more than capable of spearheading "one of the biggest 1st round upsets in NHL history".

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09-09-2013, 11:48 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And Kovalev/Straka proved they were more than capable of spearheading "one of the biggest 1st round upsets in NHL history".
Maybe they injected them with Jagr blood before each game?

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09-09-2013, 11:51 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And Kovalev/Straka proved they were more than capable of spearheading "one of the biggest 1st round upsets in NHL history".
don't forget kip miller. 1 goal, 4 assists in the four games jagr was out of the lineup. legend.

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09-09-2013, 12:27 PM
  #117
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From memory, Jagr was the deciding factor in the 1999 series against the Devils though. Devils were starting to play better as the series went on, but Jagr came back from injury and was dominant.

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09-09-2013, 12:36 PM
  #118
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From memory, Jagr was the deciding factor in the 1999 series against the Devils though. Devils were starting to play better as the series went on, but Jagr came back from injury and was dominant.
Sadly for the Devils it was really Brodeur who became the deciding factor... He flat out sucked in game 7

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09-09-2013, 12:38 PM
  #119
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Sadly for the Devils it was really Brodeur who became the deciding factor... He flat out sucked in game 7
He was pretty bad all series long. The worst series of his playoff career until the Sean Avery series.

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09-09-2013, 12:39 PM
  #120
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From memory, Jagr was the deciding factor in the 1999 series against the Devils though. Devils were starting to play better as the series went on, but Jagr came back from injury and was dominant.
Yes, Jagr was huge in finishing off the last half of the upset when he returned. That was mostly game 6, though, when NJ tried to get Niedermayer/Stevens out against 30 minutes of Jagr/Straka and just couldn't do it. It was a 3-2 game, though (how much "domination" can you point to in a 1 goal game?), and it was Straka who got loaded down with most of the icetime and was more productive in game 7.

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09-09-2013, 12:42 PM
  #121
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He was pretty bad all series long. The worst series of his playoff career until the Sean Avery series.
Yes, but i wasnt like Barrasso was much better. It came down to that last game when I think Brodeur only manage like 7 saves or something.

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09-09-2013, 12:45 PM
  #122
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Yes, but i wasnt like Barrasso was much better. It came down to that last game when I think Brodeur only manage like 7 saves or something.
Nine saves on 13 shots. Not his finest hour.

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09-09-2013, 12:57 PM
  #123
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Nine saves on 13 shots. Not his finest hour.
Yea, thought it was something like that. If Brodeur didn't play his worst game of his career no way pens upset the devils.

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09-09-2013, 01:17 PM
  #124
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From memory, Jagr was the deciding factor in the 1999 series against the Devils though. Devils were starting to play better as the series went on, but Jagr came back from injury and was dominant.
that's what it looks like from looking at the box scores. with jagr, they lose the first game. without jagr, they win two, then NJ comes back and wins two. then jagr comes back and they take the final two.

note that while marty's stats look terrible in game 7 (and less than stellar in game 6), barrasso's stats for the series are very good. 2.14 GAA, .923 SV%. and that's while being outshot by 10 or more in 4/7 games.

none of this changes the fact that the pens and devils split the four games jagr was out, though, showing that those guys were competitive with the second best regular season team in the league (with a core that would go on to play two finals in the next two years-- obviously, the additions of rafalski, madden, white, and gomez helped, but still, those '99 devils were a very strong team and had both sykora and elias coming into their own that year).

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09-09-2013, 02:16 PM
  #125
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Tough to say. Jagr never played both ends of the ice like Fedorov did in 94, but he was also producing at a level Fedorov never really did in coverage that was a lot tougher than Federov faced in 94.

I guess it all comes down to how much play without the puck is valued compared to with it between these two seasons.

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