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Way around the Cap?????

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Old
07-06-2005, 11:19 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Why does the NHL give the best young players to the worst teams?

Is that fair?

Just because you tank you get rewarded?
Damn, I've been saying that for years. You want a top prospect? Simple. Have your team tank it, deal off all your teams good players in a salary dump (hello Pittsburgh and Washington) and hope that your draft ball comes up as being first.

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07-06-2005, 11:27 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
It was Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver that received revenue sharing and not any US teams. If they wanted those teams out the league then they would be gone by now.
They are fine to be in the game, but that didn't grow the league at all. If that program was successful they'd have a good tv contract. Throwing some small cash to keep the Canadians in the game is not biggie.

Proof is in the tv deal in the US.

The future is not Canada.

If the NHL becomes a successful US league, a big 4 sport so to speak, they'll purge Canadian teams as quickly as the Vancouver Grizzlies.

The health of the NHL is more important than small market Canadian teams.

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07-06-2005, 11:28 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Damn, I've been saying that for years. You want a top prospect? Simple. Have your team tank it, deal off all your teams good players in a salary dump (hello Pittsburgh and Washington) and hope that your draft ball comes up as being first.
It all comes down to money ..

The Leafs signed Mogilny and Roberts and Belfour and Cujo and Nieuwendyk as UFA .. ALL 30 teams had equal opportunity to sign them ..

As a result of Leafs putting in the Effort to win they get punished as the pan handling teams sit around waiting for handouts and the best young Stars year after year.

The league shouldn't fine the Leafs and others for trying to win they should start handing out hefty fines to Washington for tanking and Wirtz for lack of effort ..That would make more sense to me ..

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07-06-2005, 11:30 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
You're right when you are labelled a troll first by your actions , its really hard to see the sarcasm in your posts or take you seriously for that matter as well.

For your reputation proceeds you !!!!!..
You can label me want you want and I won't loose any sleep over it trust me.

By the way, it's pretty hard to take your delusional fantasies about the Leafs seriously too you know.

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07-06-2005, 11:35 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
They are fine to be in the game, but that didn't grow the league at all. If that program was successful they'd have a good tv contract. Throwing some small cash to keep the Canadians in the game is not biggie.

Proof is in the tv deal in the US.

The future is not Canada.

If the NHL becomes a successful US league, a big 4 sport so to speak, they'll purge Canadian teams as quickly as the Vancouver Grizzlies.

The health of the NHL is more important than small market Canadian teams.
The health of the NHL is the main thing and Bettman and the rest of the owners have decided that having teams in all the major Canadian markets is part of that.

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07-06-2005, 11:53 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
It all comes down to money ..

The Leafs signed Mogilny and Roberts and Belfour and Cujo and Nieuwendyk as UFA .. ALL 30 teams had equal opportunity to sign them ..

As a result of Leafs putting in the Effort to win they get punished as the pan handling teams sit around waiting for handouts and the best young Stars year after year.

The league shouldn't fine the Leafs and others for trying to win they should start handing out hefty fines to Washington for tanking and Wirtz for lack of effort ..That would make more sense to me ..
The signings you refer to in your post (which incidentally I believe were absolutely prudent) constitute effort only if you consider signing UFAs as the central paradigm in team building. Further, to suggest that all 30 teams had an equal opportunity to sign them is overly simplistic at best and disingenuous at worst.

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07-06-2005, 12:00 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor of MacAppolis
Here is how you go around the cap: Sign the player for 500 K and then sign his wife, kids, parents, etc as special consultants for 10 million!
This post along with the other cap circumventing scenarios proposed by Dar & Messenger beg the question. Why would the NHLPA give away an entire years salary, if beating the cap restrictions is going to be relatively trivial?

Hopefully my sarcasm detector is not busted...

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07-06-2005, 12:03 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Bettman has no interest in any Canadian team winning the Cup.

It would be best for the health of the NHL if all the Canadian teams were perennial busts.

For the good of the game, it is imperative that only US teams make the playoffs, and better still if they are teams in the south.
Not true. The Maple Leafs and Canadiens are always big draws in U.S. markets. If the NHL had its way, but the Canadiens and the Leafs would always be strong franchises. But I can agree that the other Canadian teams they don't give a damn about because the average fan in Carolina has never even heard of Ottawa and would much rather buy a ticket to see Portland.

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07-06-2005, 12:05 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
The signings you refer to in your post (which incidentally I believe were absolutely prudent) constitute effort only if you consider signing UFAs as the central paradigm in team building. Further, to suggest that all 30 teams had an equal opportunity to sign them is overly simplistic at best and disingenuous at worst.
Go Figure ..

Please how .. UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENT .. means not equal opportunity ..

Well if that holds true then that is great news should Pronger become an UFA this summer then those same teams that couldn't afford or didn't offer Belfour the $$$ also shouldn't do it now for Pronger ..

because as you say .. "to sign them is overly simplistic at best and disingenuous at worst"

Right ??

That is the problem in team building through the draft .. You have to suck or wait for handouts in most cases to get these Franchise players to build around .. Prettyh hard to do it picking in the high 20's unless your scouting is exceptional and everyone elses is pathethic to pass on a player that falls to you ..

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07-06-2005, 12:06 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox
Not true. The Maple Leafs and Canadiens are always big draws in U.S. markets. If the NHL had its way, but the Canadiens and the Leafs would always be strong franchises. But I can agree that the other Canadian teams they don't give a damn about because the average fan in Carolina has never even heard of Ottawa and would much rather buy a ticket to see Portland.
It is good to retain some historical franchises (Montreal/Toronto), but for the good of the NHL (NHL ne game) emphasis must be shifted to the southern US teams. Having franchises in Canada will not accomplish the goals of the US investors.

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07-06-2005, 12:14 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
It is good to retain some historical franchises (Montreal/Toronto), but for the good of the NHL (NHL ne game) emphasis must be shifted to the southern US teams. Having franchises in Canada will not accomplish the goals of the US investors.
Nor will it deter them from happening.

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07-06-2005, 12:20 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Go Figure ..

Please how .. UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENT .. means not equal opportunity ..

Well if that holds true then that is great news should Pronger become an UFA this summer then those same teams that couldn't afford or didn't offer Belfour the $$$ also shouldn't do it now for Pronger ..

because as you say .. "to sign them is overly simplistic at best and disingenuous at worst"

Right ??
Do I really need to point out that a sizeable portion of the leagues 30 teams did not have the financial tools to sign those UFAs? The market for players like Belfour, Cujo and Mogilny (to a lessor extent for Roberts & Nieuwendyk) was very limited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
That is the problem in team building through the draft .. You have to suck or wait for handouts in most cases to get these Franchise players to build around .. Prettyh hard to do it picking in the high 20's unless your scouting is exceptional and everyone elses is pathethic to pass on a player that falls to you ..
I never suggested that it was easy but it certainly is doable (the Flyers come to mind). IMO the hiring of Paul Maurice to coach the Marlies is a step in this direction for the Leafs, a new emphasis on player development.


Last edited by habfan4: 07-06-2005 at 12:28 PM.
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07-06-2005, 02:58 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Please how .. UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENT .. means not equal opportunity ..
Are you actually suggesting that you think all 30 franchises have the financial wherewithal to throw $5 million+ at an unrestricted free agent?

If you think the market last summer for Ed Belfour, at $7 million a season was 30 teams, you are dillusional.

The market for him, at that asking price, was a handful of teams at best. To suggest otherwise is asinine, and shows a clear ignorance of the economics of professional hockey.

Lemme guess - I misunderstood you again, right?


Last edited by FerrisRox: 07-06-2005 at 03:06 PM.
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07-06-2005, 03:09 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox
Are you actually suggesting that you think all 30 franchises have the financial wherewithal to throw $5 million+ at an unrestricted free agent?
Are you suggesting all 30 would have this under a cap system?

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07-06-2005, 03:11 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
I never suggested that it was easy but it certainly is doable (the Flyers come to mind). IMO the hiring of Paul Maurice to coach the Marlies is a step in this direction for the Leafs, a new emphasis on player development.
The Red Wings have stayed on top of the league while re-stocking their club with young talent (Jiri Fischer, Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg, Igor Grigorenko, Jiri Hudler) through the draft and Colorado has continued to draft well and flesh out their organization with young blood while still staying on top of the standings. There are clubs that do it.

In fact, I think one of the reasons the Wings and Avs have been successful (re: winning Stanley Cups) is while they do sign UFAs to compliment their lineup, they also have a stable of young talented players in place as well. Not to mention many of their key players were drafted by the club and developed within the organization. That is where the Wings and Avs differ from the Leafs. The Leafs of the past used primarily money to build their club. Those more successful clubs used money and drafting. That's one of the reasons that I think the new CBA will be *good* for the Maple Leafs in the long run. They are now going to be forced to adapt this same philosophy. Once the fans embrace this, we will stop seeing these silly "How to get around the cap" posts and the fans will stop thinking it's their god-given right to have more chances to win then the lower revenue clubs.

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07-06-2005, 03:13 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox
Are you actually suggesting that you think all 30 franchises have the financial wherewithal to throw $5 million+ at an unrestricted free agent?

If you think the market last summer for Ed Belfour, at $7 million a season was 30 teams, you are dillusional.

The market for him, at that asking price, was a handful of teams at best. To suggest otherwise is asinine, and shows a clear ignorance of the economics of professional hockey.

Lemme guess - I misunderstood you again, right?
But in contrast now this new CBA system will give all 30 teams the financial wherewithal to throw $7 million+ magically at Pronger as a UFA ..

I year later with shrinking market due to lockout damage lost ESPN contract etc and a Cap set higher then 50% can spend and make money ..

Something's wrong here ..

This is typical since we (pan handling teams) can't afford him then the big market teams shouldn't be allowed to have him either mentality ..

We lost a year and the UFA remains the same .. The big teams will buyout players and sign the best UFA and the weaker can have their hand-me-down .

SO yes like usual you don't understand..

Just so you do understand .. I am saying there is no difference UFA of Stars is still the same under either system with no the big teams have to be more selective ..


Last edited by Mess: 07-06-2005 at 03:19 PM.
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07-06-2005, 03:25 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by habfan4
Do I really need to point out that a sizeable portion of the leagues 30 teams did not have the financial tools to sign those UFAs? The market for players like Belfour, Cujo and Mogilny (to a lessor extent for Roberts & Nieuwendyk) was very limited..
Right which is my point IF THEY DON"T HAVE the financial tools to compete at a level that fans can enjoy the game with the need to tear teams a part to address lack of money..

My point remains the same ... Why are they in the NHL then ??


Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
I never suggested that it was easy but it certainly is doable (the Flyers come to mind). IMO the hiring of Paul Maurice to coach the Marlies is a step in this direction for the Leafs, a new emphasis on player development.
Flyers did well but they also traded for the 4th to take Pitkanen and picked Carter 11th by making another trade .. So they still piced early ..

A team in a WIN now mode and drafting late has no choice but to pick late and with UFA set at 31 how exactly do you expect them to build a core from young players ..

The Leafs competed the only way they could under the old CBA..

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07-06-2005, 03:31 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox
The Red Wings have stayed on top of the league while re-stocking their club with young talent (Jiri Fischer, Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg, Igor Grigorenko, Jiri Hudler) through the draft and Colorado has continued to draft well and flesh out their organization with young blood while still staying on top of the standings. There are clubs that do it.
Complete Nonsense ..

Igor Grigorenko, Jiri Hudler have barely played and NHL game .. They have done nothing to help Detroit win in the past ..

Datsuyk was a complete fluke .. Passed over twice by everyone and drafted at 20 years old. Selected by Detroit Red Wings round 6 #171 overall 1998 NHL Entry Draft

Zetterberg ..Selected by Detroit Red Wings round 7 #210 overall 1999 NHL Entry Draft

Come on give your head a shake that was shear luck and nothing more .. that has given them a chance to play youth in the new NHL ..

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07-06-2005, 03:57 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Right which is my point IF THEY DON"T HAVE the financial tools to compete at a level that fans can enjoy the game with the need to tear teams a part to address lack of money..
This point is a little disjointed but I'll take a shot: Which team has been or will be torn apart? I read a fair number of threads on this and other boards, and even given the uncertainty of the CBA, almost every team's fans seem optimistic (the Isles being the exception).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
My point remains the same ... Why are they in the NHL then ??
That sentiment did not appear to be expressed in your original point (or at least in it did not seem to be in the post I responded to). It appeared that you were asking why are we (the Leafs and other) being punished if others can't compete financially. In terms of Washington and/or Chicago who you referenced earlier, I'm not enamoured with the way they run their franchises and that they'll have a clean slate going forward. On the flip side I look at teams like Minnesota or Nashville or Edmonton and think, these teams deserve a more level playing field (they deserve to be able to retain the talent they draft).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
Flyers did well but they also traded for the 4th to take Pitkanen and picked Carter 11th by making another trade .. So they still piced early ..

A team in a WIN now mode and drafting late has no choice but to pick late and with UFA set at 31 how exactly do you expect them to build a core from young players ..

The Leafs competed the only way they could under the old CBA..
In terms of the Flyers example, I think it made my point that a club can both draft/trade to build a team as well as add the UFAs. I would like to note, that I've never criticized the Leafs for doing business the way they did, although I don't think it was necessarily the way to go.

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07-06-2005, 04:15 PM
  #70
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New Cap in Action

Interesting.

Quote:

Hockey phenom Sidney Crosby is in contract talks with Swiss club Lugano, The Canadian Press has learned.

With the NHL set to unveil a new collective bargaining agreement with tough new limits on entry-level contracts, a source said Wednesday that Crosby has been offered a three-year deal that could be worth as much as $10 million US including a multimillion-dollar signing bonus by the Swiss club.

Crosby's agent Pat Brisson of IMG admitted negotiations were taking place. But he would not confirm any financial details.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=129769

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07-06-2005, 04:22 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by The Messenger
New Cap in Action
This is a no brainer for these Euro teams.

They don't need to pay all their players top dollar, just a few marque players, and with the difference in taxes with some countries, even matching by a NHL team wouldn't cut it.

This could also be a start of the evolution of hockey worldwide, where players can chose, like European Football, to go to a variety of elite level clubs for the season, before returning home for the off season.

Say Sid gets claimed by San Jose, how much further is the flight home? And how much longer is the off season in Europe?

I have to start thinking Bettman is looking out for the game, not just the NHL. This low cap could be a positive influence around the world.

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07-06-2005, 04:24 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
. . .
In terms of the Flyers example, I think it made my point that a club can both draft/trade to build a team as well as add the UFAs. I would like to note, that I've never criticized the Leafs for doing business the way they did, although I don't think it was necessarily the way to go.
Out of curiosity, which way would you have gone if you were the Leafs? I do agree that a combination of drafting/development and signing UFAs is necessary for any team's long term success. The Leafs have been drafting and developing (contrary to popular opinion as expressed on these boards), and appear poised to experience some of the fruits of that at the NHL level.

I don't say that we have done as good a job as Philadelphia, who have drafted some high profile prospects who have made it to the NHL very quickly, and appear to have a couple of other good ones coming.

But Toronto is not without hope on the prospect front. In my mind, we have gone from being a poor team with little in the way of prospects (around 1995) to being a good team with a decent stable of prospects (2005). A job well done, imo. Hopefully we will continue to improve.


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07-06-2005, 04:28 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by ULF_55
. . .
This could also be a start of the evolution of hockey worldwide, where players can chose, like European Football, to go to a variety of elite level clubs for the season, before returning home for the off season.
. . .
The start, maybe, but we're a long way from realising it yet. Hockey comes nowhere near the popularity of football around the world so I don't the think the Euopean leagues will be able to compete. They will sign a few marquee players as you suggest, but those players will be the exception.

If you were Crosby would you be content to make 3 mill per year for your career, play in Switzerland, and become a footnote in hockey history? And how much will he lose in endorsement money? No. I think players will take the short term pain of a rookie cap for the long term gain.

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07-06-2005, 04:42 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlap
Out of curiosity, which way would you have gone if you were the Leafs? I do agree that a combination of drafting/development and signing UFAs is necessary for any team's long term success. The Leafs have been drafting and developing (contrary to popular opinion as expressed on these boards), and appear poised to experience some of the fruits of that at the NHL level.

I don't say that we have done as good a job as Philadelphia, who have drafted some high profile prospects who have made it to the NHL very quickly, and appear to have a couple of other good ones coming.

But Toronto is not without hope on the prospect front. In my mind, we have gone from being a poor team with little in the way of prospects (around 1995) to being a good team with a decent stable of prospects (2005). A job well done, imo. Hopefully we will continute to improve.
Let me first say that I enjoy your posts.

I'm on record as not being in the camp that thinks the Leafs prospects cup board is bare, I also think highly of some of the younger "buds" like Stajan and to a lessor degree guys like Antropov. Additionally, (to throw Messenger a bone) I don't put much stock in the HF board team rankings.

I think the Leafs achillies heal has been a combination of not having enough faith or patience with young players (I'd agrue that has Quinn penchant for vets), and management trading away players that are just on the cusp of being solid contributors (Sullivan, Modin, McCauley). It may not be an entirely fair criticism (hindsight is 20/20) so I'm willing to give Leaf management the benefit of the doubt, perhaps they truely thought they were a player away or that the team would be markedly improved in terms of trades.

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07-06-2005, 04:42 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlap
The start, maybe, but we're a long way from realising it yet. Hockey comes nowhere near the popularity of football around the world so I don't the think the Euopean leagues will be able to compete. They will sign a few marquee players as you suggest, but those players will be the exception.

If you were Crosby would you be content to make 3 mill per year for your career, play in Switzerland, and become a footnote in hockey history? And how much will he lose in endorsement money? No. I think players will take the short term pain of a rookie cap for the long term gain.
However with a cap for all players why the need for a rookie cap in the first place ??

Why not pay for performance in the NHL?? .. Why should Nash and Kovalchuk lead the league in goal scoring and be paid among the lowest players because of age ??

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