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Peewee AA Lsl North- What a mess

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Old
10-01-2013, 10:19 AM
  #151
Canadiens1958
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Other Jurisdictions

Links to other jurisdictions where AAA / AA is an issue.

Saskatchewan:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1497093

Alberta:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1399123

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10-01-2013, 12:15 PM
  #152
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My son has the school application's going and is eligible for AAA/AA precamp this spring. It is a mess and a half. Both from a competition level and an administration level.

Hockey Quebec needs to adjust the regional allocations to give some teams a fighting chance. AAA was partly to prevent kids from needing to be surclassed.

Having said all that...what coach in their right mind allows his team to score 15 goals. I am just talking about the sportsmanship side.

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10-01-2013, 01:19 PM
  #153
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Point(s) Being?

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Originally Posted by Hockey RUS View Post
My son has the school application's going and is eligible for AAA/AA precamp this spring. It is a mess and a half. Both from a competition level and an administration level.

Hockey Quebec needs to adjust the regional allocations to give some teams a fighting chance. AAA was partly to prevent kids from needing to be surclassed.

Having said all that...what coach in their right mind allows his team to score 15 goals. I am just talking about the sportsmanship side.
What about a teacher who holds his students back, telling them to underachieve, miss a few questions on tests, etc? After all it is not good sportsmanship that too many kids from a high school get into McGill while kids from other high schools do not.

Sport reflects life.

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10-01-2013, 08:24 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey RUS View Post
My son has the school application's going and is eligible for AAA/AA precamp this spring. It is a mess and a half. Both from a competition level and an administration level.

Hockey Quebec needs to adjust the regional allocations to give some teams a fighting chance. AAA was partly to prevent kids from needing to be surclassed.

Having said all that...what coach in their right mind allows his team to score 15 goals. I am just talking about the sportsmanship side.
Been on both ends of blowouts as a coach. Why is it bad sportsmanship for kids playing at the top level to continue to play hard? Kids are resilient, it is not as if they going to cry because they lost by 10 or more goals. I think it is worse for the team to stop trying and clowning with the other team. My only suggestion would be to run the clock if there spread is more then 6 goals.

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10-02-2013, 06:47 AM
  #155
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At the elite AAA/AA the objective was to have the top players. In LSL not all the top players showed up or made it for whatever reason.

I am sure the same thing happened elsewhere which is why there will be lopsided games from cc to AAA because kids are at the wrong levels more than ever before.

As previously, posted the whole AAA/AA is in complete turmoil in LSL. It will be interesting to see how it is addressed.

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10-04-2013, 07:35 AM
  #156
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One of the debates ongoing with the AAA/AA structure that is surfacing is as follows:

How should individual associations fund AAA/AA or contribute?

For example, if an association sends only a handful of kids to AAA/AA, do they pay the same fare as those who may have contributed 3 times as many?

AAA/AA took a heavy toll on certain clubs BB and CC programs as players moved up to fill the void of those who stayed out of it.

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10-04-2013, 08:18 AM
  #157
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Funding

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey RUS View Post
One of the debates ongoing with the AAA/AA structure that is surfacing is as follows:

How should individual associations fund AAA/AA or contribute?

For example, if an association sends only a handful of kids to AAA/AA, do they pay the same fare as those who may have contributed 3 times as many?

AAA/AA took a heavy toll on certain clubs BB and CC programs as players moved up to fill the void of those who stayed out of it.
Finally getting the discussion moving in the right direction.

First question is whether each AAA or AA team should be an independent non-profit organization? Stand alone without direct ties to any specific organization or association.

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10-04-2013, 09:59 AM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey RUS View Post
One of the debates ongoing with the AAA/AA structure that is surfacing is as follows:

How should individual associations fund AAA/AA or contribute?

For example, if an association sends only a handful of kids to AAA/AA, do they pay the same fare as those who may have contributed 3 times as many?

AAA/AA took a heavy toll on certain clubs BB and CC programs as players moved up to fill the void of those who stayed out of it.
The way its working is that each association is responsible for a team. For example, lakeshore is responsible for the BT AAA community team. hence that team is supposed to get their allotment of ice from lakeshore, etc. Other associations may sale ice to Lakeshore so that lakeshore has enough to meet the mandate per HQ.

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10-04-2013, 10:05 AM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Finally getting the discussion moving in the right direction.

First question is whether each AAA or AA team should be an independent non-profit organization? Stand alone without direct ties to any specific organization or association.
That won't work as the minor hockey associations in conjunction with the cities control the ice. The cities hand out the ice to the minor hockey associations and in turn they hand out the ice to AAA/AA.

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10-04-2013, 10:56 AM
  #160
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Works

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That won't work as the minor hockey associations in conjunction with the cities control the ice. The cities hand out the ice to the minor hockey associations and in turn they hand out the ice to AAA/AA.
Works very well elsewhere. Will not go into the details since the structure of a non-profit depends on the local situation(s).

Basically your points above explain the motivation for individual associations and cities not to make it work, since each gets greater financial benefits from the status quo.The proceeds generated by high profile activities AAA / AA games stay within the association, the arena if privately owned, the city -parking revenues, private operators in public venues - restaurants, vending machines, bar, pro shop, misc vendors,etc.

Bottom line is that AAA / AA hockey is easier to market since it is high profile. It also generates more money per team than other double letter or single letter teams. Question that remains is getting the optimal benefits from the situation and how the benefits are split.

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10-04-2013, 12:52 PM
  #161
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From what I have seen this summer/fall, some associations have diassociated themselves almost completely (maintain status quo) and some have taken the bull by horns.

It is unfair for the kids (in the association that does not participate) since no one is there to communicate to them or support them. What happens is the parents will go nuts on the AAA/AA structure and the association gets less of the fallout when maybe it should be the reverse.

Look at the various association websites in LSL and tell me which one has no reference...at all to AAA/AA. Hmm.

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10-04-2013, 01:44 PM
  #162
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Deux Rives was thrown under the bus by Lac.St.Louis.


WestLuc isn't talking about AAA.

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10-04-2013, 02:00 PM
  #163
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Westluc has always done its own thing. I just wonder if they get a bill for AAA/AA.

There lies the problem and why someone independent of the associations needs to be involved.

One independent body would be the schools...but, is Hockey Quebec ready to give the AAA/AA to the schools!

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10-04-2013, 04:00 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by IHaveNoCreativity View Post
Deux Rives was thrown under the bus by Lac.St.Louis.


WestLuc isn't talking about AAA.
Not sure anyone cares about WestLuc. They contribute little to nothing in terms of ice and players.

Why would Westluc get a bill for AAA/AA. The respective teams are sponsored/run/organized by the various associations. The teams are run as quasi-independent - similar to an espoir team. The teams get billed for ice and game costs by the respective associations hosting the games and practices. Some of you are really out in left field as to how this is managed at the team and association level.

Also, I do ot see how adding another level of beaurucracy would make things better. right now you have HQ, LSL, and the local hockey associations. If you add a another AAA/AA beaurucracy- how would that help. The AAA/AA would still need to communicate with the local association from which the kid are coming from and so on.

I do not think schools will be able to handle hockey in Canada. There is no money in the public school system here. private schools may have a chance - but then hockey becomes even more elite /expensive than it is now.


Last edited by proam16: 10-05-2013 at 02:08 PM.
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10-04-2013, 04:14 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Works very well elsewhere. Will not go into the details since the structure of a non-profit depends on the local situation(s).

Basically your points above explain the motivation for individual associations and cities not to make it work, since each gets greater financial benefits from the status quo.The proceeds generated by high profile activities AAA / AA games stay within the association, the arena if privately owned, the city -parking revenues, private operators in public venues - restaurants, vending machines, bar, pro shop, misc vendors,etc.

Bottom line is that AAA / AA hockey is easier to market since it is high profile. It also generates more money per team than other double letter or single letter teams. Question that remains is getting the optimal benefits from the situation and how the benefits are split.
Cities are there to serve their constituents. Which is the case when it comes to minor hockey associations. The cities provide subsidized ice to their associations - keeping costs down for the citizens. They may not feel the same about other hockey associations. Ice is a scarce resource here...

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10-04-2013, 05:32 PM
  #166
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Cities and Arrondissements

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Cities are there to serve their constituents. Which is the case when it comes to minor hockey associations. The cities provide subsidized ice to their associations - keeping costs down for the citizens. They may not feel the same about other hockey associations. Ice is a scarce resource here...
Well that is an interesting view that does not reflect the reality of LSL hockey which is a blend of 14 small reconstituted cities from the 2006 demergers and 7 city of Montreal arrondissements.

City of Montreal citizens in the arrondissements would be better served by Hockey Montreal.Kids and coaches would travel less to enjoy hockey. Ice time is available in the various Montreal western arrondissements. Check the hours of use and opening times.

As for costs being kept down that is a debatable issue:


Comite des Jeunes de la Louisiane, association established 43 years ago. Single letter.

COSTS

Intro (born between Jan 1, 2009 and Dec 31,2011) $140.00
Pre Novice (born between Jan 1, 2007 and Dec 31,2008) $150.00
Novice (born between Jan 1, 2005 and Dec 31,2006) $160.00
Atom (born between Jan 1, 2003 and Dec 31,2004) $170.00
Pee Wee (born between Jan 1, 2001 and Dec 31,2003) $175.00
Bantam (born between Jan 1, 1999 and Dec 31,2001) $190.00
Midget (born between Jan 1, 1997 and Dec 31,1998) $200.00

Benefits - each youngster gets - loan of hockey pants under certain conditions, goalie equipment is provided, end of season trophies. Each team gets to participate in two Hockey Quebec tournaments. Teams are encouraged to fundraise to participate in two more tournaments to reach the HQ cap of four.

At registration each youngster has to have a minimum of half of the registration fee.

Compare LSL association numbers.

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10-07-2013, 12:27 PM
  #167
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Problem in LSL: enough people have money. Result is the associations can be less accountable and more money hungry because there are enough who will pay.

Did LSL lose sleep over kids pulling out of tryouts for AAA/AA? Not really since there are enough to take their place and willing to spend.

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10-07-2013, 02:01 PM
  #168
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AAA/AA killed the competitive balance of all leagues below them. It has had an insane effect at the BB and CC levels. You now have a mix of AAA and A players all playing bb. Makes zero sense.

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10-07-2013, 02:23 PM
  #169
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There are some great 2nd years playing BB and some great first years playing CC or even A. It has split the talent in all directions and add to it the school teams.

It will be interesting what changes get implemented for next year if any.

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10-07-2013, 03:02 PM
  #170
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Raymond Bourque & Denis Savard.

I'll throw this out for discussion. Since Raymond Bourque - St. Laurent and Denis Savard - Verdun, how many great(sure fire HHOF) players has LSL produced? Lists welcome.

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10-07-2013, 03:06 PM
  #171
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Blainville and Mirabel are now the hockey hot beds.

LSL has become stale because of the monopoly created in the region since the 90s.

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10-07-2013, 08:52 PM
  #172
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Quote:
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Blainville and Mirabel are now the hockey hot beds.

LSL has become stale because of the monopoly created in the region since the 90s.
Granted the blainville area is booming.

But there are 15 monopolies in Quebec and they are part if the integrated structures which all lead to a single midget AAA team in the structure. Otherwise I am not sure what you mean by monopoly. The only restriction is where you reside. Blainville is not far from the west island , so families are certainly free to move we're they wish.

Fortunately there more than 15 major junior teams.

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10-08-2013, 07:11 AM
  #173
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Interesting view point of..."well if you do not like it...move".

Sorry but, if you readjust your lives (and move) because of hockey, there are other issues that I won't get into.

Is creating regional monopolies the best thing for player development? And who makes the decisions at these regional monopolies?

The whole problem with the structure and this is not limited to Quebec is that it creates conflict of interest situations and just as bad the appearance of conflicts of interest.

There are alot of very good hockey players, who are getting lost in the deck now.

In LSL it will be interesting to see how what has happened affects which schools kids are looking at.

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10-08-2013, 08:12 AM
  #174
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Background

^^^ A few comments relevant to the previous posts.

1970, before Hockey Quebec, one district in the Montreal region had 34 associations offering minor hockey. Before counting the schools and the old GMIAA. Today the same district,slightly larger due to urban development, has two associations offering minor hockey.

Talk about bureaucracies and conflict of interest today is misplaced. Years ago it was much worse. Kids could legally play for 4 or 5 teams, age groups were not standardized, rights issues(importing) were ongoing, etc. Today, even with 15 alleged "monopolies" the administration and playing of youth hockey is much simpler. Two reasons, one good, one bad.

Good, the administration is streamlined across Canada due to modern technology and administration. Bad, fewer youngsters are actually playing hockey. Cost is a factor but not the main reason. Biggest issue today is the choice of activities and the overlap of seasons. Previously athletic kids could easily play 4 or 5 sports a year. Today at a very young age they have to choose one. So the ones not choosing hockey keep the figures low. But in the province of Quebec this is compensated by the huge increase in elite, world class athletes(male and female) produced in other sports. Net is a big plus for the community or communities across Canada especially when the number of elite world class Canadian coaches in the various sports is factored in.

Two key points.

First, do not expect cookie cutter minor hockey associations since situations are different and fluid. Recognize the strengths of each.

Second, the nature of athletic competition is such that leagues will never have the parity or balance that is ideal. The teams will always cycle from top to bottom and back.

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10-08-2013, 09:51 AM
  #175
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Kids nowadays gets pressure to train year round in sports especially soccer. In addition, more and more kids do specialized training to compete.

The joke in all this...studies show that kids who do a greater variety ARE MORE likely to play for university teams than those who specialize before 14-15.

Sadly, kids are not being allowed to play multiple sports at the top level of competition. Added, the cost to be at a high level in hockey is getting ridiculous and compete to make top teams.

The associations are caught in middle with 3 layers of hockey players...single letters/double letters and now AAA/AA.

Parents are realizing that in Sec 1, my son or daughter can play hockey/soccer/rugby/golf etc... in a school environment with much less pressure and their child is home by 6.

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