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2013-14 Training Camp Discussion

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:21 PM
  #951
dunner
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Pateryn/Tinordi at this point, at least to me...and granted, i'm obviously not making the decision. Are better dmen, or at the very least, as good as Bouillon at this point.

Bouillon is not a PP guy, he shouldn't be playing on the PK either...so at the end of the day, he's just a 3rd pairing dman who's going to be playing 15-18 mins a game against soft competition.

You think he'd be better at that role than Pateryn or Tinordi?
I don't think Bouillon needs soft competition just don't throw him out against Crosby etc. I agree it would be nice to avoid playing him PP and PK but injuries will happen he certainly can be a better sub PP player then either Pateryn or Tinordi but that doesnt make him good at it.

Currently it is very hard to say whether Bouillon is still ahead of Tinordi or Pateryn because of the short sample size but if I look back to last years playoffs then I would say yes Tinordi had his vulnerable moments but thats why we have camp and it's a new season. i'm just trying to say that having Bouillon as a safe guard incase these guys are not ready is a good thing, also injuries will happen. Like my other posts says when they pass Bouillon in there progression I am confident they will have a roster spot.

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09-18-2013, 12:22 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by PyrettaBlaze View Post
Reason why Leblanc was cut so early:

@JohnLuTSNMtl:
#Habs Therrien on Leblanc early demotion: "We know LL. We need to learn about other guys (potential)." Cites Collberg, Thomas and McCarron.

Yeah.. smells ******** to me.
Actually that makes sense to me. Leblanc was never going to make the team out of camp, so send him down now. This gives management a chance to see up close what players like Colberg, Thomas and McCarron can do.

This whole Leblanc controversy has really put me off. This is a kid who has proven nothing since being drafted yet people around here and in the media think he deserves some sort of special treatment. Where is the outrage for all the other players being cut? If he wasn't French people wouldn't care and that's annoying.

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:23 PM
  #953
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Originally Posted by Draft View Post
If I could have had one training camp wish....

Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Leblanc
Bourque-Eller-Gallagher
Bournival-Plekanec-Briere
Fournier-White-Prust

Tinordi-Subban
Markov-Diaz
Beaulieu-Gorges
(Murray)

Price
Fucale

And if I have lines of prospects that I think could be serious pains to play against....

Bournival-Dumont-Leblanc
De La Rose-Eller-McCarron
I like these combos ... the one I would really like to see is simmilar:
Pacioretty, Eller, Gallagher
Bourque, Plekanek, Briere
Bournival, Galchenyuk, McCarron
Priust, Dumont, Whilte

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:23 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Beats me to be honest...don't understand this organization's obsession with such a mediocre (and i'm being nice here) player.

There's absolutely no reason why Bouillon should have a spot in the top 6 wrapped up ahead of Tinordi IMO.

This organization has 3 dmen prospects who are on the verge of graduating to the NHL, Tinordi, Pateryn and Beaulieu.

While they've got quite a few veterans playing on the last year of their deals, so obviously, there's going to be quite some turnover next year.

I'm not sure phasing in 3 players (Tinordi, Pateryn, Beaulieu) all at the same time next year makes all that much sense.

Out of those 3, Tinordi or Pateryn seem the most ready...I would like to see one of them phased in right away, so the transition isn't as difficult over the next year or so.
There are a few obvious reasons...

1-you never have too many NHL d-men, if you don't have depth then you lose big time when injuries hit

2-Those young d-men should first prove they are 100% NHL ready before being given a top 6 spot.

3-Bouillon is a character player and quality vet, if you have to call up Tinordi/Beaulieu/Pateryn due to injury, he is a great partner for them to help them transition into the NHL.

4-I'd rather have Bouillon and/or Drewiske in the press box if everybody is healthy, rtaher than a 21 or 22 year old guy.

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09-18-2013, 12:24 PM
  #955
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Does anyone else feel as if our team has gotten a lot slower?

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:26 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Actually that makes sense to me. Leblanc was never going to make the team out of camp, so send him down now. This gives management a chance to see up close what players like Colberg, Thomas and McCarron can do.

This whole Leblanc controversy has really put me off. This is a kid who has proven nothing since being drafted yet people around here and in the media think he deserves some sort of special treatment. Where is the outrage for all the other players being cut? If he wasn't French people wouldn't care and that's annoying.
I'm not french, I don't care that Louis is French and I cared a little bit that he was cut. I don't think he was going to make the team, but one more look would have been nice.

To say that he has proven nothing since his draft year is disingenuous. He played for 5 different leagues in 5 years. Had a very good season pro in the ahl and nhl. He showed good things with the 40 games he played on the Canadiens as a 20 year old. He had a bad year last year, sure, but that doesn't mean he's been crap since he's been drafted.

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:27 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Actually that makes sense to me. Leblanc was never going to make the team out of camp, so send him down now. This gives management a chance to see up close what players like Colberg, Thomas and McCarron can do.

This whole Leblanc controversy has really put me off. This is a kid who has proven nothing since being drafted yet people around here and in the media think he deserves some sort of special treatment. Where is the outrage for all the other players being cut? If he wasn't French people wouldn't care and that's annoying.
Most of the "outrage" was because he looked better than a lot of other AHL guys still there.

He's proven a lot of stuff since he's been drafted, he's progressed at every level and every seson before last year, yet all these "knowledgeable" Hab fans were throwing him under the bus this summer. I guess if Gallagher or Galchenyuk struggle this year we should put them on the trading block...


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Old
09-18-2013, 12:28 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Habruti! View Post
I like these combos ... the one I would really like to see is simmilar:
Pacioretty, Eller, Gallagher
Bourque, Plekanek, Briere
Bournival, Galchenyuk, McCarron
Priust, Dumont, Whilte
Really digging Bournival-Galchenyuk-McCarron!

Galchenyuk-Briere-McCarron would also be a lot of fun to watch, very balanced. We could end up having an interesting preseason if the coaches are willing to change it up. Pacioretty-Desharnais

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:34 PM
  #959
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I'm not french, I don't care that Louis is French and I cared a little bit that he was cut. I don't think he was going to make the team, but one more look would have been nice.

To say that he has proven nothing since his draft year is disingenuous. He played for 5 different leagues in 5 years. Had a very good season pro in the ahl and nhl. He showed good things with the 40 games he played on the Canadiens as a 20 year old. He had a bad year last year, sure, but that doesn't mean he's been crap since he's been drafted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Most of the "outrage" was because he looked better than a lot of other AHL guys still there.

He's proven a lot of stuff since he's been drafted, he's progressed at every level and every seson before last year, yet all these "knowledgeable" Hab fans were throwing him under the bus this summer. I guess if Gallagher or Galchenyuk struggle this year we should put them on the trading block...

Maybe I had higher expectations for Leblanc but when I look at where his game is today, I'm not overly impressed. He still has a lot to prove, which I'm sure you will agree with. I don't have a lot of confidence going forward with him.

As for getting cut already, it really doesn't matter. Training camp is a time for vets to get back in game shape and for management to take a look at young players. LL getting an extra game wasn't going to change anything.

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:37 PM
  #960
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Originally Posted by Draft View Post
Does anyone else feel as if our team has gotten a lot slower?
Slower than when? Last year was the fastest Habs team I have ever seen.

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:38 PM
  #961
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I don't get the obsession with Leblanc. Look at his draft year and who was drafted around him. It was a poor draft for depth. Chris Kreider was immediately after him but depending on your opinion he has proven nothing as well. The only chance the habs had at a realistic impact player so far was Ryan O'Reilly who went second round. if he turns out to be a reliable 3rd line player I will be happy if he turns out to be more well i'll be ecstatic.

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:41 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Slower than when? Last year was the fastest Habs team I have ever seen.
Slower than last year. It may be because it's only been at a camp/preseason level of effort but, I'm really not seeing the shiftiness, speed, and ability off the rush in the last two games that I've gotten used to from our veteran lines. Murray, Markov, and Bouillon aren't exactly helping how the defence looks. Long-term worry or pre-season boredom?

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:41 PM
  #963
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Originally Posted by dunner View Post
I'll give a simple answer - Teams play to win not to build for the future if Therrien/Bergevin believe Bouillion gives them a better chance to win now then he will be in the lineup. When Tinordi proves he absolutley should be in the lineup I guarantee that he will be there. That time has not come yet but will soon. Honestly it was only 1 preseason game but Pateryn to me showed me maybe the next spot belongs to him.
Yes teams play to win but at the same time is Bouillon that much better then Tinordi? I don't think so. Tinordi impressed last year and it's been a few years now that he has only been getting better. Can't take a step backwards either with prospects and I do agree with 417 when he says that bringing in 3 rookies next year to start the team and year is not the best of ideas

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:45 PM
  #964
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Actually that makes sense to me. Leblanc was never going to make the team out of camp, so send him down now. This gives management a chance to see up close what players like Colberg, Thomas and McCarron can do.

This whole Leblanc controversy has really put me off. This is a kid who has proven nothing since being drafted yet people around here and in the media think he deserves some sort of special treatment. Where is the outrage for all the other players being cut? If he wasn't French people wouldn't care and that's annoying.
More a few posters in here than anything. I watched all the hockey shows on RDS and TVA last night and it was pretty much a consensus that LL didn't really do anything to force their hand in keeping him.

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:51 PM
  #965
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Yes teams play to win but at the same time is Bouillon that much better then Tinordi? I don't think so. Tinordi impressed last year and it's been a few years now that he has only been getting better. Can't take a step backwards either with prospects and I do agree with 417 when he says that bringing in 3 rookies next year to start the team and year is not the best of ideas
Significantly better than Tinordi probably not but better yes and that's all that matters. Don't get me wrong I think Tinordi will play with the big club this year and once he gets there it is my hope that he doesn't ever give his spot up. But having Bouillon as safguard for what 1.5 mil? Is good management. Playing top line in the AHL is not a step backwards for Tinordi at this point he hasn't even had a full season there, he can still serve to learn.

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:52 PM
  #966
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Beats me to be honest...don't understand this organization's obsession with such a mediocre (and i'm being nice here) player.

There's absolutely no reason why Bouillon should have a spot in the top 6 wrapped up ahead of Tinordi IMO.

This organization has 3 dmen prospects who are on the verge of graduating to the NHL, Tinordi, Pateryn and Beaulieu.

While they've got quite a few veterans playing on the last year of their deals, so obviously, there's going to be quite some turnover next year.

I'm not sure phasing in 3 players (Tinordi, Pateryn, Beaulieu) all at the same time next year makes all that much sense.

Out of those 3, Tinordi or Pateryn seem the most ready...I would like to see one of them phased in right away, so the transition isn't as difficult over the next year or so.
I like your observations, and I mostly share your view about Bouillon.

On the other hand, I'm really not sure Pateryn is ready. I mostly liked what I saw of him until now, but his first passes are still scary. Too smooth and slow to my taste, and too often in the skates on the forwards. Pretty dangerous against team like Boston, Toronto, etc, who like destroying our forwards.

At least in that department, Bouillon is kinda good.

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:56 PM
  #967
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Originally Posted by Draft View Post
Does anyone else feel as if our team has gotten a lot slower?
A little, going to be painful at times with Murray back there

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunner View Post
Significantly better than Tinordi probably not but better yes and that's all that matters. Don't get me wrong I think Tinordi will play with the big club this year and once he gets there it is my hope that he doesn't ever give his spot up. But having Bouillon as safguard for what 1.5 mil? Is good management. Playing top line in the AHL is not a step backwards for Tinordi at this point he hasn't even had a full season there, he can still serve to learn.
Ok but how many safeguards do we need? What would you call Murray then? Why didn't management pick 1 vet and between both players for example pick the one that brings the biggest need to the team. I don't think we need both to be honest but that's my opinion. Time will tell

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09-18-2013, 01:02 PM
  #968
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
A little, going to be painful at times with Murray back there



Ok but how many safeguards do we need? What would you call Murray then? Why didn't management pick 1 vet and between both players for example pick the one that brings the biggest need to the team. I don't think we need both to be honest but that's my opinion. Time will tell
Emelin's Injury is why Murray is here. I think many ppl are taking this wrong. If Tinordi truely deserves a spot ahead or Bouillon or Murray he will have it, just like Gallagher last year earned his shot. Management will go with the best team not the "sexy choice" that HF boards wants.

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09-18-2013, 01:13 PM
  #969
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Emelin's Injury is why Murray is here. I think many ppl are taking this wrong. If Tinordi truely deserves a spot ahead or Bouillon or Murray he will have it, just like Gallagher last year earned his shot. Management will go with the best team not the "sexy choice" that HF boards wants.
Murray is a big presence on defense no doubt about it but he doesn't skate very well which is the force of our game. Tinordi can hit and be nasty as well and is a lot cheaper and also would have gained a lot of experience

When you look back at last year's playoffs, except the last game here are the ice time for both Tinordi and Bouillon in the first 4 games

Game 1 Tinordi 12:00, Bouillon 14:48
Game 2 Tinordi 15:42, Bouillon 15:40
Game 3 Tinordi 12:09, Bouillon 14:35
Game 4 Tinordi 15:44, Bouillon 16:12

I respect your opinion but at the end of the day I just don't agree with the decision they made. We will see how the season turns out

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09-18-2013, 01:16 PM
  #970
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
There are a few obvious reasons...

1-you never have too many NHL d-men, if you don't have depth then you lose big time when injuries hit

2-Those young d-men should first prove they are 100% NHL ready before being given a top 6 spot.

3-Bouillon is a character player and quality vet, if you have to call up Tinordi/Beaulieu/Pateryn due to injury, he is a great partner for them to help them transition into the NHL.

4-I'd rather have Bouillon and/or Drewiske in the press box if everybody is healthy, rtaher than a 21 or 22 year old guy.
Oh I agree about depth...and that's precisely what Bouillon should be, a depth player

But seems like his position on the depth chart is unchallenged. There's virtually nothing one of the kids can do to unseat Bouillon

That's where I disagree...the top 4 is pretty much set

But the following players

Bouillon, Murray, Tinordi, Pateryn, Beaulieu, Drewiskie and even Nygren should in theory be battling for the 5-6-7-8 spots

Yes, Tinordi still has a lot to learn and will be prone to mistakes. But can anyone tell me Bouillon doesn't make mistakes?

If the performance of Bouillon vs the other young players is virtually the same, I have trouble understanding how it makes more sense to play Bouillon.

Just my opinion...although I admit, i've NEVER been a Bouillon fan

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Old
09-18-2013, 01:23 PM
  #971
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Most of the "outrage" was because he looked better than a lot of other AHL guys still there.
LOL outrage?? You're pretty much the only one outraged. Everybody that has watched the training camp has agreed he was doing nothing to justify keeping him. He has to force the organization's hand to keep him, he has to be so good that the coach goes to the gm and says we have to keep him, not the other way around. This sense of entitlement is getting ridiculous, habs don't owe squat to Leblanc.

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Old
09-18-2013, 01:50 PM
  #972
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I evidently want to see more games from the likes of Bournival, Pateryn etc.. but from what I have seen so far, both Tinordi and Pateryn deserve and would be on the team if I was running it. This would be a lineup that I would try.

Pacioretty - Eller - Galchenyuk
Bournival - Plekanec - Briere
Bourque - Desharnais - Gallagher
Parros - Prust - Moen/Fournier

Subban - Pateryn
Gorges - Tinordi
Murray - Markov
Emelin

I also want Desharnais traded.

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Old
09-18-2013, 01:54 PM
  #973
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Gorges Subban
Markov Emelin
Tinordi Diaz

That's the d-core I'd like to when everyone is healthy.

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Old
09-18-2013, 02:01 PM
  #974
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Originally Posted by Draft View Post
Slower than last year. It may be because it's only been at a camp/preseason level of effort but, I'm really not seeing the shiftiness, speed, and ability off the rush in the last two games that I've gotten used to from our veteran lines. Murray, Markov, and Bouillon aren't exactly helping how the defence looks. Long-term worry or pre-season boredom?
I'm sure most NHL veterans are 75% trying to get through preseason without getting hurt and 25% trying to get their timing back. I don't put much stock in results or the play of vets.

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09-18-2013, 02:02 PM
  #975
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Yes teams play to win but at the same time is Bouillon that much better then Tinordi? I don't think so. Tinordi impressed last year and it's been a few years now that he has only been getting better. Can't take a step backwards either with prospects and I do agree with 417 when he says that bringing in 3 rookies next year to start the team and year is not the best of ideas
You under estimate the importance of the mental aspect of the game. We rushed Ryan O'byne and it killed his career. He had the talent to play in the NHL but once he lost his confidence, he was never the same. Just because a 21 year old can play at the NHL level doesn't mean it's the best thing for him.

You give these kids too much too soon and they lose sight of how lucky they are and how much work it takes to stay in the NHL. Look at what happened to Latendresse, too much too soon, look where his career is now. Same thing with Sergei Kostitsyn.

Spending a couple years in Hamilton grounds them and gives them a chance to develop the good work habits they need to succeed as a pro.

Look at how much time Pleks spent in Hamilton compared to Lats. Plekanec is known as one of the hardest workers. Subban probably could have played in the NHL sooner but it was good for his development. I don't want to rush Tinordi.

What separates the Crosby, Subbans and Galchenyuk's from the Louis Leblanc's of the world is partially their drive and work ethic. They are 100% committed to hockey instead of Harvard.

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