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Very Realistic Be a GM League [REGISTRATION OPEN]

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09-10-2013, 06:36 PM
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AlexanderTheGood
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Very Realistic Be a GM League [REGISTRATION OPEN]

Welcome to the Official Very Realistic Be a GM League:



Anaheim Ducks: VACANT
Boston Bruins: AlexanderTheGood
Buffalo Sabres: twinpeaks
Calgary Flames: stlflamesfan
Carolina Hurricanes: VACANT
Chicago Blackhawks:VACANT
Colorado Avalanche: Gigantor The Goalie
Columbus Blue Jackets: ViD
Dallas Stars: OryxonCake
Detroit Red Wings: TeeeRuss
Edmonton Oilers: I3ig13ig
Florida Panthers: VACANT
Los Angeles Kings: Robsvafan
Minnesota Wild: gallo28
Montreal Canadiens: CrimsonSkorpion
Nashville Predators: VACANT
New Jersey Devils: VACANT
New York Rangers: VACANT
New York Islanders: Stranger34
Ottawa Senators: VACANT
Phoenix Coyotes: VACANT
Philadelphia Flyers: bomalightdevils
Pittsburgh Penguins: VACANT
San Jose Sharks: VACANT
St. Louis Blues: thatsclassy
Tampa Bay Lightning: VACANT
Toronto Maple Leafs: Be a Hab
Vancouver Canucks: VACANT
Washington Capitals: Mystlyfe
Winnipeg Jets: jets18

Rules:*

Some Games Will Be Simulated and Some Games Will Be Played (Some Games MUST Be Played, This Is Not a Sim League)
Difficulty Will Be Set at Superstar
Periods Will Be 8 Minutes in Length
Injuries Will Be in Effect

*Note: All rules are subject to change if a democratic majority chooses to change them.

BE FORWARNED! This league is not your average Be a GM League, it is a very realistic version of Be a GM, run by a dictatorial approach in the effort to simulate as realistic a GM experience as possible. The league is administered or governed by a cadre of five or more knowledgeable GMs that run the league by vetoing trades according to a defined 'realistic factor.' Read on, as you could easily become a member of this cadre and help run and maintain the world's most realistic Be a GM League. This league was experimented with last season, but failed for a number of reasons--among them, disinterest because of the lockout, a misunderstanding over the rules, and most importantly, a misunderstanding of the 'realistic barrier.' For ease of understanding the realistic barrier has been defined below:

“Realistic Barrier” definition
:

A trade will have crossed the realistic barrier, or threshold, on the premise that it is superfluous, chimerical, phantasmagorical or outright unrealistic. Because the definition is fairly wide, it is important to note that the spectre of the co-commissioner cadre is not one to fear. The majority of the trades conducted in our league will go nowhere near the realistic barrier—but some will. This is why our league requires a definition of the term “realistic barrier”—equipped with plentiful and wide-ranging examples—that can stand on its own two feet. Trades will not be vetoed because we deem them “unfair,” but rather, if we deem them categorically “unrealistic.” As co-commissioner gmermger37 notes, “it is important to draw a distinction that our league has realistic in its title, and therefore it shouldn't look like a fantasy hockey lineup after a week of trades.”

A superfluous trade, for instance, is one conducted purely for the sake of trade. As one co-commissioner describes it, “Basically, moving pieces for the sake of moving pieces. One example of it I suppose could be if I [the Ottawa Senators] traded Kyle Turris, Jason Spezza, and a 1st to the Caps for Marcus Johansson, Backstrom, and their 1st. The trade addresses nothing for either team and would be orchestrated out of naught but player preference rather than anything resembling necessity.” These are the types of trades our league and our co-commissioner cadre attempts to curb. An important asterisk associated with superfluous trading, is that a trade involving two fairly evenly matched players—say, for instance, Michael Ryder for Martin Havlat—would not be deemed superfluous because neither player can be easily recognized as a core asset in either franchise.

A chimerical or phantasmagorical trade, on the other hand, is a trade that arises via a fanciful imagination that completely lacks grip in the real world. For instance, it is not permissible for the GM of the Pittsburgh Penguins to post that Darren Dreger is reporting that Sidney Crosby “really doesn't like Pittsburgh anymore” and then trade that player for three first round picks. Naturally, chimerical trades will become less and less of an issue as the GM league progresses, because the disconnect between the game and reality will become further and further split as we move from one-season-to-the-next. In other words, if by Season 3 Crosby is not performing well, statistically speaking, or is suffering from nagging injuries, or the Penguins miss the playoffs for multiple years in a row, trading Crosby for three first round picks does not whatsoever near the realistic barrier. Fantasy hockey is, by its very nature, a chimerical and phantasmagorical pursuit, and thus, vetoing trades because they are “unrealistic” is something that will be done in only the most drastic circumstances.

Therefore, one aspect of the realism barrier is that in the immediate term, "core" or "elite" players like Sidney Crosby, Jonathan Toews, Duncan Keith, Shea Weber, Henrik Zetterberg, Jordan Eberle, etc. cannot be moved unless there are immediate circumstances that allow for it--more on that just below. Players like Mike Richards, Patrick Kane, Evengeni Malkin, David Perron, Patrice Bergeron, Brian Gionta, David Backes, Jay Bouwmeester, etc., all these and other players are open to trade. Only a very restricted group will not be open, unless that is, there is immediate extenuating circumstances either in reality (lack of performance / discontent with team) or in-game (lack of performance/ significant regression).

Additional aspects of the Realistic Barrier:

Another aspect of the realistic barrier are No Trade Clauses, something that exist in reality but not in the game. Enforcing them, therefore, expedites the mission of making a Be a GM game that is more realistic than the original. NTCs offer a complicated example, because we cannot be entirely sure what all of their details are. A certain amount of conjecture is thus required on behalf of the cadre. Here's how I would evaluate a trade involving a NTC: the determination of the behalf of the NTC-holding player is based on a consideration of long-term and short-term motivations, based on all the available real-world information and a heavy dose of conjecture; and perhaps more importantly, a determination of not just who is being traded, but also when and where. Short term motivations (i.e., chances of winning, playoff bonuses, etc.) are weighed against and considered in accordance with long term motivations (i.e., place of residence, contractual obligations, potential teammates, etc.), with short-term motivations being more prominent in the eyes of older players and long-term motivations being more prominent in the eyes of younger players. This is of course not a concrete template.

I've created some hypothetical and some realistic examples of trades that I would both veto and approve. These examples were created last season, note when, where, and who is being traded--all are important factors according to this template, and are inextricably related to both short- and long-term motivations. Remember going forward that I only constitute one vote, and thus, these examples do not constitute any type of actual rule change going forward. They are just a glimpse into my voting process regarding NTCs. These are just completely hypothetical trades I came up with on a whim, and that the values themselves are not really pertinent.

November 12, 2012



The Vancouver Canucks trade:

Roberto Luongo


to the Tampa Bay Lightning for:

Vinny Lecavalier
Brett Connolly
3rd Round Pick in the 2013 NHL Entry Draft

Trade Approved

Explanation: I begin by looking at the trade as I would any other: the trade values don't look absurdly uneven to me, and on at least a couple levels, the trade addresses the separate needs of each team. In terms of when the trade is taking place, the trade is occurring at an odd time, but it makes sense given the Canuck's salary cap issues and the various media reports of Luongo "wanting out of Vancouver," or the very least, being open to a trade. So I pay approval to when the trade is taking place.

Roberto Luongo does have a NTC, and we know that he can select a very small number of teams he'd be willing to go to. We know from multiple media reports that Luongo wants to live in his off-season fiefdom, and be with his family in Florida. So after examining when the trade is taking place, my process begins examining where and how that player would respond. Tampa Bay is in Florida, so I accept where the trade is taking place. The Tampa Bay Lightning have a very solid team with a promising future. Luongo has a realistic chance of winning a Stanley Cup in Tampa Bay over the duration of his contract. It meets Luongo's short-term and long-term needs to a tee. Vincent Lecavalier has a No Movement Clause (NMC), so he cannot oppose the trade. Overall, the trade seems to make perfect sense on a realistic level to me and is therefore approved.

February 22, 2013

The Oilers are four points out of a playoff spot, the Predators are eight points out of a playoff spot.


The Nashville Predators trade:

Mike Fischer
Shea Weber


to the Edmonton Oilers in exchange for:

Sam Gagner
Ales Hemsky
Ryan Whitney
Colten Teubert

Trade Not Approved

Explanation: This time around, the trade is taking place at a perfectly reasonable time. The trade deadline is approaching and both teams are vying for a playoff spot, perhaps considering a rebuild. So where and when are not important issues. What is important in this case, however, is the players involved. Ryan Whitney has a no-trade clause with Edmonton Oilers and only a few months left on his contract. In regards to Whitney's short-term motivations, typically a player with a few months left in their contract will gladly accept a trade. So Whitney likely accepts, perhaps even begrudgingly, as Nashville doesn't offer a significant advantage over Edmonton. In a sense, the short remainder in Whitney`s contract almost construes an absence of long-term motivations, so we pretty much skip those.

Mike Fischer is a different case. In the short-term, we know that Fischer recently signed a new deal with the Predators and that it featured a NTC, which likely means that he believes the team is a bonified contender. While Edmonton offers a slight advantge in the standings, the advantage isn't sufficient enough to override Fischer's long-term motivations. We know from various reports that Fischer has a full NTC, in which he can submit a ten team list at the beginning of the season or not submit a ten team list and that he chose not to submit a list. We know that Fischer's wife lives in Nashville, and the two are something of a common face in the community and culture of the Nashville Predators. We know that Fischer is in many intangible ways, a key cog in that franchise and a "core player." Fischer is not geographically neutral, he is not disinterested in his movement, he does not accept the trade.

January 5, 2013

The Calgary Flames are thirteenth, the Columbus Blue Jackets are fifteenth. Jay Bouwmeester has scored already scored 8 goals this season.


The Calgary Flames offer:

Jay Bouwmeester


to the Columbus Blue Jackets in exchange for:

James Wisniewski
Cam Atkinson
5th Round Pick in the NHL Entry Draft

Trade Approved


Explanation: This trade is not taking place at a bad time when you consider how both teams have been fairing. Jay Bouwmeester and James Wisniewski both have NTCs. This is where a new premise is introduced. Generally speaking, if one, two, or more players with NTCs have been playing poorly in real-life or in-game for a noticeably long stretch of time, by default, I assume that their short-term motivations are to be moved immediately and to any destination provided.

That is, provided, the player is geographically neutral (re: long-term motvations). Wisniewski, for instance, has shown no signs of being opposed to relocation. Bouwmeester has moved coast-to-coast to play in Calgary, and has never looked very comfortable there. He accepts a trade to virtually anywhere. Both sides accept the lesser of two evils and the trade is approved.

The Role of Non-Cadre GMs:

Enough with NTCs for now. Whenever a trade appears unrealistic, all GM's in our league have the power to 'flag' a trade as being unrealistic—again this is not to be done in the case of trades deemed “unfair” or “uneven,” but rather, in the case of trades being patently “unrealistic.” But, as co-commissioner epinephrine notes, it is important to "keep an eye out for teams that seem to be doing a lot of trades with each other that are kind of becoming suspicious. I remember being in a SIM league back in the day and one team made some slightly one sided trades to another team which happened to be a friend. The team on the losing side of the trade wasn't interested in being in the league anymore so it sort of stacked the other team. ...Stuff like that that can muck up a league pretty quickly." With that being said, if a trade is flagged, it will be investigated by the co-commissioners and a vote will be conducted amongst the co-commissioners. So, be watchful, but also, please limit the number of flags, as it is a time-consuming process for us to deliberate on each and every trade deemed “unrealistic.” In the unlikely event that a trade is vetoed, a Shanahanesque point-form reasoning will be posted and will be open to public scrutiny. Here is an example of such decision-making in action, from a real-life scenario during last season:

September 15, 2012:



The Washington Capitals trade:

Alexander Ovechkin, Dimitri Orlov, 2013 1st (WSH), 2013 2nd (WSH), 2013 5th (WSH) Matt Hendricks.


to the Winnipeg Jets in exchange for:

Evander Kane, Zack Bogosian, Alexander Burmistrov, Mark Scheifele, 2013 3rd (WIN) round pick.

Trade Not Approved

1) There is, first and almost foremost, an excessive movement of assets—not only core players, but also top prospects, and top draft picks—taking place. This crosses the “realistic threshold” if we look at a recent trade involving the face of the franchise, i.e., the Columbus Blue Jackets trade of Rick Nash, a conditional pick, and a low level prospect to the New York Rangers for 2 mid level NHL starters, a good prospect and one 1st round pick. We kept in mind that Rick Nash wanted out and was in a certain manner dictated where he was going. That diminished the value. To say it's a counter-point is a bit of a misnomer, however, because if Nash hadn't asked to be moved, he almost certainly would have stayed in Columbus. Contrastingly, on June 27, 2009, Pronger, along with forward Ryan Dingle, was traded to the Philadelphia Flyers in exchange for Lupul (earlier traded to Edmonton for Pronger in 2006), the rights to defenceman Luca Sbisa, two first round draft picks and a conditional third round draft pick. Pronger, albeit being older than Ovechkin was/is a dominant player. Pronger was traded for a top 6 winger, projected top 4 dman, and 2 firsts which ended up being late. Using this as the measuring stick, the Washington-Winnipeg trade does not cross the realism barrier by a country-mile, only slightly. Further, it does not cross the realistic barrier because of the quality of players being moved, but rather, the quantity.

2) As the latter example in the previous point demonstrate, it is true that elite players are traded. Even Wayne Gretzky was traded—twice—but if we look back to the Gretzky trades, even in those cases (which were truly exceptional) we don't see so great a number of transferable assets. Gretzky was traded to Los Angeles for two top-ten draft picks, not four. We could not find, in our research, a trade in either pre- or post-lockout NHL that had quite so many assets being shifted back-and-forth. To extend the analogy, the Gretzky trade to Los Angeles featured an elite player being moved from a small-market to a large-market team, the inverse rarely, if ever, happens.

3) From the Jets perspective, Bogosian Kane, Burmistrov, and Schiefele are indispensible to the future of Winnipeg, an issue that is compounded by the inclusion of another high draft pick in 2013. Though somewhat close to what we see in the Pronger trade discussed above, Bogosian, Kane, Burmistrov, and Schiefele (four top-ten first round picks), plus another third round pick, far exceed in value and even farther exceed in size, Sbisa, Lupul, and two late first round picks, and thus do not meet the realism requirements of the majority of co-commissioners. Again, this is not an issue of the trade being lopsided—we saw no wide discrepancies in the quality of players being moved (especially considering the inclusion of Orlov, Hendricks, and so on), but rather, we were unable to find a real-world precedent for so many players being moved in one trade.

4) From Washington's side of things, though Ovechkin's NTC does not kick-in until July 1, 2014, as the face of his franchise and the team's repeated scoring champion, his NTC is de facto in effect. Were Ovechkin to publicly oppose the trade, it would badly damage the reputation of the Washington franchise amongst its fan-base for years to come. We also oppose the juncture of season in which the trade was made, it had no justification in the short-term for either Washington or Winnipeg given that the team's opening squads had not even hit the ice. From both team's perspective, the risk-benefit analysis is not favourable in either the short or long term. In regards to point and the last, neither the GM of Washington nor the GM of Winnipeg could provide—as the co-commissioner's letter of appeal calls for—a real-world example of such a trade taking place in recent or even not-so-recent memory.

5) While we veto this specific trade, that is not to say that we believe the trading of Alexander Ovechkin to be unrealistic in and of itself. In fact there have been a few rumours to that exact effect which surfaced this summer. We merely oppose the phantasmagorical nature of this trade on the basis of quantity—too many players are being moved from both teams. Neither we nor the GM's proposing their appeals could not find, in our and their research, a trade in the last decade or even two that featured so many elite players being transferred—a transferring of 6 assets from one team and 5 assets to another (almost all of which featured core or elite players and very high draft picks.) In considering this point and the others, being flagged by an outside GM, and taken through a long and swivelling debate, the trade does not meet the realism standards outlined in the bold proposal.

In conclusion, the co-commissioners voted 4-1 in favour of vetoing the trade.

Regardless, we thank both GMs kindly for their written appeals, and hope that this does not hinder their future involvement in the league.

The Cadre:

As for membership in the cadre itself, it is based on volunteer-ship. The only necessity for membership in the group would be an application that has the following: first, the proposed cadre member would have to offer five examples of potential NHL trades that they believe contradict the realistic barrier for five differing reasons (i.e., it is phantasmagorical, it is superfluous, it is chimerical, it is a NTC, it contradicts a player or team's long- or short-term motivations, etc.); secondly, the proposed cadre member would have to offer a list of ten players from the league that they believe are untouchables within the first two years of gameplay.

Each trade requires three approvals from other GMs to encourage activity, even if it is minor movement of players; likewise, for a trade to be reviewed by the cadre, it must be officially flagged by another GM. We prefer flagging to be transparent, thereby reducing secret arrangements and potential corruption. Remember, it is each GMs responsibility to remain active and if they are not approving or challenging other GMs trades, they should not feel entitled to their own. This is a league that requires activity and research from all thirty of its members. Finally, and very importantly, in regards to other roles for non-cadre member GMs... if the unusual case arises that enough GM's in our league feel that the cadre has over-extended its power, then a vote may be conducted, in which all members of the HF forum are allowed to vote on a specific trade to determine whether it is fair or not. If the cadre is outvoted by the majority of voting GMs, the cadre will then face a period of re-election.

By running the league authoritatively we make it slightly less democratic, but also far more efficient, and infinitely more realistic. We remove the cumbersome approach of confirmations and rejections, and so on and so forth. And we also remove trades that counter the rationalistic approach to fantasy hockey. We remove arbitrary trade-caps and put an end to silly roster-freezes used to counter excessive and wildly artificial trades. In these leagues, it quickly appears as though their had been a fantasy draft. It offers a paradigm that is the opposite extreme to the banality of playing a predictable computer. It has neither the depth of human gameplay or the realism of a constricted environment and therefore does not meet our needs as desirers of a realistic Be a GM experience. If you agree with these sentiments, please register today to join our league.

WOULD YOU BE INTERESTED IN A LEAGUE LIKE THIS? IF SO, REGISTER BELOW WITH THE FOLLOWING DETAILS AND IN THE FOLLOWING FORMAT:

HF Username: AlexanderTheGood
PSN ID: alexthegood
Team of Choice: Random


Last edited by AlexanderTheGood: 10-04-2013 at 06:08 PM.
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09-10-2013, 06:57 PM
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DB0SS
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I would absolutely love to join, I think that GMC Leagues like this are great, however I don't see a place to register/ pick a team. Do I just reply here?


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09-10-2013, 08:19 PM
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AlexanderTheGood
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To answer the quest TeeeRuss sent me in a PM, we do not have a website. All information on the club will be dealt with in this thread only. As we discovered last year, having an external site or multiple threads before having 30 dedicated GMs worsened our organization efforts. Once we have 30 dedicated GMs, I would love to make a website.

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09-10-2013, 08:29 PM
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habs03
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Sorry, Ive read everything but just want to make sure, its going to a normal GM league, expect that the trades have to be very very realistic.

I'd totally be in but my only question, are we going to be playing the games or are they going to it going to be a SIM league, and we just control the roster.

thanks.

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09-10-2013, 08:46 PM
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AlexanderTheGood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
Sorry, Ive read everything but just want to make sure, its going to a normal GM league, expect that the trades have to be very very realistic.

I'd totally be in but my only question, are we going to be playing the games or are they going to it going to be a SIM league, and we just control the roster.

thanks.
That's to be decided democratically after we have 30 dedicated GMs. As a matter of full disclosure, we came to an agreement on a semi-played/semi-simmed leagued, in which users were given a choice, but ultimately had to play or coach some games. I wouldn't be opposed to doing something like this again, but I'd like to hear from others first.

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09-10-2013, 09:48 PM
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habs03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderTheGood View Post
That's to be decided democratically after we have 30 dedicated GMs. As a matter of full disclosure, we came to an agreement on a semi-played/semi-simmed leagued, in which users were given a choice, but ultimately had to play or coach some games. I wouldn't be opposed to doing something like this again, but I'd like to hear from others first.
Thanks for the reply

I like how its really realistic, but the deal breaker for me is the possibility nothing being able to actually play. So i don't want to take up a team and after the voting end up dropping out, but if early on you notice all of the ppl want to play the games aswell I'd love to take the Habs.

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09-11-2013, 01:58 AM
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You're welcome, habs03. I too hope that the majority of the games will be played, actually. But I prefer to keep things democratic...

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09-11-2013, 09:03 AM
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Hi, I would like to join your league. I've been playing EA NHL since 1999. I'm a die hard fan of the game and a very active gm. I completly agree with the hole concept of keeping the trades realistic... I find it funner that way.

Hf Username : Be a Hab
Psn: BEAHAB
Team of choice: Edmonton Oilers


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09-11-2013, 09:23 AM
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i would like to join this league ill take st.louis and my psn is
uhYEAH-AllStar9

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09-11-2013, 01:53 PM
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HF Username: TeeeRuss
PSN ID: TeeeRuss
Teams of Choice: 1. Detroit Red Wings
2. Chicago Blackhawks
3. Tampa Bay Lightning

Can't wait for it to start!


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09-11-2013, 05:18 PM
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Welcome to the league guys. I won't be fully committing IDs to teams until each GM has confirmed, re-confirmed, and re-confirmed again. Thus, it may be wise to select three teams rather than just one. I only ask that you rank them in descending order from the team you'd most like to the team you'd second most like, and etc.

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09-11-2013, 06:51 PM
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gallo28
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Hi
I would like to join this league, but my only concern is not being available to play every game. I would try to play games mostly on the weekends and if that is okay with you I would love to join this league

hf=gallo28
psn-sports2345

1st team- Wild
2nd team- Penguins
3rd team- Islanders


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09-11-2013, 07:14 PM
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Hf username - thatsclassy

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1st - St.louis
2nd - Washington
3rd - New York rangers

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09-12-2013, 04:00 PM
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AlexanderTheGood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Be a Hab View Post
Hi, I would like to join your league. I've been playing EA NHL since 1999. I'm a die hard fan of the game and a very active gm. I completly agree with the hole concept of keeping the trades realistic... I find it funner that way.

Hf Username : Be a Hab
Psn: BEAHAB
Team of choice: Edmonton Oilers
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeeRuss View Post
HF Username: TeeeRuss
PSN ID: TeeeRuss
Teams of Choice: 1. Philadelphia Flyers
2. Chicago Blackhawks
3. Tampa Bay Lightning

Can't wait for it to start!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gallo28 View Post
Hi
I would like to join this league, but my only concern is not being available to play every game. I would try to play games mostly on the weekends and if that is okay with you I would love to join this league

hf=gallo28
psn-sports2345

1st team- Wild
2nd team- Penguins
3rd team- Islanders
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatsclassy View Post
Hf username - thatsclassy

PSN - uhYEAH-AllStar9


1st - St.louis
2nd - Washington
3rd - New York rangers
Welcome to the league guys!

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09-12-2013, 08:17 PM
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Teams of choice:
1) Oilers (please please please please)
2) St. Louis
3) Winnipeg
4) Boston

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09-13-2013, 06:06 PM
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AlexanderTheGood
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So far we have 5 GMs, with a total of 25 teams still available...

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09-13-2013, 10:35 PM
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HF user name:stlflamesfan
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Teams:
1. Calgary
2. Tampa
3. Colorado

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09-13-2013, 11:14 PM
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I3ig13ig
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Originally Posted by AlexanderTheGood View Post
So far we have 5 GMs, with a total of 25 teams still available...
I'm assuming you counted me as one?

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09-14-2013, 08:45 AM
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I'll take Minnesota/Buffalo/NYI.

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09-14-2013, 11:39 AM
  #20
habs03
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Question to some of you who have signed up, on a vote, do you guys think would vote for playing the actually games or sim through it?

thanks

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Old
09-14-2013, 12:03 PM
  #21
AlexanderTheGood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I3ig13ig View Post
I'm assuming you counted me as one?
Absolutely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
Question to some of you who have signed up, on a vote, do you guys think would vote for playing the actually games or sim through it?

thanks
This is indeed a good question for all prospective GMs...

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Old
09-14-2013, 12:10 PM
  #22
thatsclassy
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I vote on playing them

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Old
09-14-2013, 01:33 PM
  #23
stranger34
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this league sounds great! I would like to join. As far as sim vs playing I like the initital idea best of blending the two.

HF Username: Stranger34
PSN ID: Stranger034
Teams of Choice:
1. NY Islanders
2. Tampa Bay Lightning
3. Buffalo Sabres

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Old
09-14-2013, 02:21 PM
  #24
Gigantor The Goalie
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I'm up for this.

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1. Colorado Avalanche
2. Nashville Predators
3. Tampa Bay Lightning

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Old
09-14-2013, 04:14 PM
  #25
habs03
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Ya a mix of sim and playing would be great, count me in

Teams I'd like

1 HABS
2 Blackhawks
3 Wild

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