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Rank the best Hart trophy winning seasons of the 1990s

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Old
09-11-2013, 09:36 PM
  #1
Big Phil
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Rank the best Hart trophy winning seasons of the 1990s

Same as the other thread for the 1970s. Here is my ranking

Lemieux 1993
Hasek 1998
Lemieux 1996
Jagr 1999
Messier 1990
Hull 1991
Fedorov 1994
Hasek 1997
Messier 1992
Lindros 1995

Alright, the big seasons for Lemieux are so high for obvious reasons. He dominated the NHL at a PPG pace as well as winning the scoring title by 12 points each time, despite missing time. Lemieux was on another level in those seasons - especially 1993 - and the only other forward I rank close to him is Jagr of 1999. It helps when you win the scoring title as well, which he did.

Hasek had arguably the best season a goaltender has ever had. The only reason this isn't #1 is because Lemieux came back from cancer in 1993 to destroy the league.

Jagr 1999, a given. Started to really separate himself from the pack this year.

Messier doesn't win the scoring title in 1990, but he does finish 2nd and like Fedorov the 1st place finisher is Gretzky.

Hull scored 86 goals, leading the NHL by 35 and finishing 2nd in points to.........Gretzky (see a pattern here?).

Hasek in 1997 was a great year too, but he's got a lot of competition.

Messier (1992) and Lindros both had fine years but their seasons are more or less the average (at best) type of Hart winning season. Nothing special and there has long been a debate about Messier's Hart in 1992, while Lindros himself could have lost to Jagr or Hasek that year as well.

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Old
09-11-2013, 09:40 PM
  #2
Budddy
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Ray Bourque in 1990....oh...wait....

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Old
09-11-2013, 09:48 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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I really don't know why you like Hasek in 1998 so much better than Hasek in 1997, to be honest. I also find it incredibly difficult to slot goalie seasons in with forward seasons, but here's my best try:

Lemieux 1993
Lemieux 1996
Fedorov 1994
Jagr 1999
Messier 1990
Hasek 1998
Hasek 1997
Lindros 1995
Hull 1991 (should have been Gretzky IMO)
Messier 1992

Honestly, I feel I could list Feds 1994, Jagr 1999, and Messier 1990 in any order. Among the best seasons ever by non-big 4 players.

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09-11-2013, 10:10 PM
  #4
quoipourquoi
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I really don't know why you like Hasek in 1998 so much better than Hasek in 1997, to be honest.
It contained arguably the best streak of his career, but boy did he under-perform in those first 20 games when he was sub-.900 and getting booed.

Mario Lemieux, 1993
Mark Messier, 1990
Jaromir Jagr, 1999
Brett Hull, 1991
Dominik Hasek, 1997
Sergei Fedorov, 1994
Mark Messier, 1992
Dominik Hasek, 1998
Mario Lemieux, 1996
Eric Lindros, 1995

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Old
09-11-2013, 10:43 PM
  #5
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
It contained arguably the best streak of his career, but boy did he under-perform in those first 20 games when he was sub-.900 and getting booed.

Mario Lemieux, 1993
Mark Messier, 1990
Jaromir Jagr, 1999
Brett Hull, 1991
Dominik Hasek, 1997
Sergei Fedorov, 1994
Mark Messier, 1992
Dominik Hasek, 1998
Mario Lemieux, 1996
Eric Lindros, 1995
I can't justify Lemieux that low at all. I realize he sat out the 2nd game of back to backs which inflated his per-game averages, but still: 161 points in a season where no non-teammate had more than 120.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-11-2013 at 10:52 PM.
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Old
09-11-2013, 10:57 PM
  #6
quoipourquoi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I can't justify Lemieux that low at all. I realize he sat out the 2nd game of back to backs which inflated his per-game averages, but still: 161 points in a season where no non-teammate had more than 120.
Low is a pretty relative term when we're talking about ten MVP seasons. It was a great season, but I don't really see it as being a top-two or three.


Last edited by Killion: 09-11-2013 at 11:04 PM. Reason: typo in quote
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Old
09-12-2013, 12:31 AM
  #7
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I really don't know why you like Hasek in 1998 so much better than Hasek in 1997, to be honest. I also find it incredibly difficult to slot goalie seasons in with forward seasons, but here's my best try:

Lemieux 1993
Lemieux 1996
Fedorov 1994
Jagr 1999
Messier 1990
Hasek 1998
Hasek 1997
Lindros 1995
Hull 1991 (should have been Gretzky IMO)
Messier 1992

Honestly, I feel I could list Feds 1994, Jagr 1999, and Messier 1990 in any order. Among the best seasons ever by non-big 4 players.
i'd add '91 hull to that three-some. i can see an argument that he "needed" oates, but by any measure 86 goals is a very remarkable thing. even gretzky never led the league in goals by 35.

mine would look something like:

'93 lemieux


'96 lemieux

'90 messier, '91 hull, '94 fedorov, and '99 jagr (and '90 bourque) in some order


'95 lindros (would probably put '91 oates, '93 gilmour, and '94 lafontaine somewhere around this ballpark; some mid-to-late 90s jagr seasons too)
'92 messier (should have been mario, or even roy, who led the league in SV% by .04 and killed everyone in GAA -- more than 1/3 of a goal ahead of the next guy; statistically that was a very hasek-like domination of the field, but without the shiny sub-2.00/.930+ numbers due to era)


haven't yet figured out where to put the two hasek seasons.

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Old
09-12-2013, 12:51 AM
  #8
jkrx
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Lemieux '93
Fedorov '94
Jagr '99
Hasek '97
Hull '91
Lemieux '96
Hasek '98
Lindros '95
Messier '90 and '92

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Old
09-12-2013, 12:52 AM
  #9
quoipourquoi
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I just want to point out the humor in the fact that of the four lists posted, two of them have referenced "debate" or disagreement with the 1992 Hart Trophy... which is the same number of voters who didn't give Messier a first place vote in the actual vote (67-2-0). And we also have the obligatory HFBoards shot at the other one he won.

In other news, the sky is blue, and the Earth is round.

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Old
09-12-2013, 02:28 AM
  #10
TAnnala
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What is the deal with Messier in 92? I don't get it, why was it so wrong for him to win the Hart that year?

So, we are all in agreement that Lemieux '93 is the most impressive one.

#1 Lemieux '93

#2 Lemieux '96 (The guy was easily the best player on the planet, and thus I give him credit for it. It was one of the most impressive offensive campaigns in the history)

#3 Hull '91 (Went with my gut on this one. My brains say Jagr should have this, but the irrational love I have towards goal-scorers makes me put Hull here. Probably the best goalscoring season of all-time)

#4 Jagr '99 (No explanation needed. Jagr was offensively over the top that year.)

#5 Messier '90 (I wanted to have Feds right besides Jagr, since they both were so awesome on their Hart years. But I just can't ignore Messier any longer. As complete player as they come. Great season and the mark when he showed to be Hall of Fame'r)

#6 Federov '94 (Probably the best offense/defense combo in a season we will ever see. One of the greatest seasons by European forward, ever.)

#7 Messier '92 (Nothing wrong with that season, as quoipourquoi said, Messier has almost unanimously all 1st place votes that year. I just don't get the same kind of chills from thinking about that season as I do when thinking about Messier in '90)

#8 Lindros '95 (Lindros ranks as the last one this decade. In my mind, Jagr could have beaten Lindros that year, so it doesn't feel as impressive to me. But this might also be my reflection about Lindros in whole. I get almost mad thinking about him, cause the dude should have been so much better. Frustrating.)

I left out Hasek, since those are too difficult for me to include here. I think Hasek was the most impressive of these players. Well, maybe Lemieux was more impressive, but even that is close. But how good was his season compared to forwards? Well, pretty good and I feel like he should have the #1/#2 spots. Cause those were the greatest seasons by goaltender, that decade and probably ever. Although I am in the minority thinking that.

So, my knowledge on the matter is too limited to be ranking Hasek among Jagr/Hull/Messier/Lemieux etc....

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Old
09-12-2013, 04:49 AM
  #11
GuineaPig
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Mario Lemieux 1993 (don't know how this couldn't be #1)
Hasek 1998
Hasek 1997
Lemieux 1996
Jagr 1999
Fedorov 1994
Hull 1991
Messier 1990
Messier 1992
Lindros 1995

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Old
09-12-2013, 05:11 AM
  #12
reckoning
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About Messiers two Harts:

The '90 Hart has always been talked about because a few writers didn't put Ray Bourque among their top three choices, and Messier narrowly beat him. Mike Milbury was very vocal about how ridiculous it was that some writers didn't put Bourque on the ballot. A Boston writer speculated that the Edmonton voters were among the ones who left Bourque off (supposedly to help Messier's chances), and it took on a life of its own. People started quoting it as a fact, despite there never being any proof of it.

Personally I would've given it to Bourque, and don't understand how someone would totally leave him off. But there's lots of instances of bizarre voting in NHL history. For example, in '85 two writers didn't have Gretzky among their top three choices despite his winning the scoring title by 73 points. Two writers didn't have Lemieux in their top three after his monster 188 point year in '89. Things like that happen.Some writers make strange choices. No conspiracy.

In '92, Messier immediately turned the Rangers from chronic underachievers to the top team in the league. It's exactly the sort of thing that would get a player noticed as MVP. People look at the stats today and say "What was so great about it?", but at the time he was almost unanimously considered the MVP that season. Nobody questioned it.

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Old
09-12-2013, 07:44 AM
  #13
the edler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
No conspiracy.
How do you know?

Quote:
In '92, Messier immediately turned the Rangers from chronic underachievers to the top team in the league. It's exactly the sort of thing that would get a player noticed as MVP. People look at the stats today and say "What was so great about it?", but at the time he was almost unanimously considered the MVP that season. Nobody questioned it.
Yeah. He didn't have any help at all on that team. He didn't have Brian Leetch on his team who won the Norris and scored 5 less points from the back end!. Then the next year when Leetch went out injured Rangers missed the playoffs. Then the next season when Leetch was back Rangers won the cup with Leetch as MVP. There's an obvious pattern here. The team also had two nice goalies in Richter and Vanbiesbrouck. And when Zubov and Kovalev came on in the 92–93 season it was a real good team.

But yeah, Messier in 92, it was like he pulled the 00s Florida Panthers out of the gutter by the hair by himself. Folklore style.

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Old
09-12-2013, 08:07 AM
  #14
Psycho Papa Joe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
About Messiers two Harts:

The '90 Hart has always been talked about because a few writers didn't put Ray Bourque among their top three choices, and Messier narrowly beat him. Mike Milbury was very vocal about how ridiculous it was that some writers didn't put Bourque on the ballot. A Boston writer speculated that the Edmonton voters were among the ones who left Bourque off (supposedly to help Messier's chances), and it took on a life of its own. People started quoting it as a fact, despite there never being any proof of it.

Personally I would've given it to Bourque, and don't understand how someone would totally leave him off. But there's lots of instances of bizarre voting in NHL history. For example, in '85 two writers didn't have Gretzky among their top three choices despite his winning the scoring title by 73 points. Two writers didn't have Lemieux in their top three after his monster 188 point year in '89. Things like that happen.Some writers make strange choices. No conspiracy.
Believe it or not, but some writers believe the Hart is a forward's award, since dmen and goalies have their own awards. Big reason so few dmen and goalies have won the Hart.

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09-12-2013, 08:20 AM
  #15
BudMovin*
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Believe it or not, but some writers believe the Hart is a forward's award, since dmen and goalies have their own awards. Big reason so few dmen and goalies have won the Hart.
Forwards have the Rocket Richard, Art Ross, Selke. Those writers are dumb.

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Old
09-12-2013, 08:26 AM
  #16
TAnnala
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Rocket and Art Ross are statistical awards and Selke is not a major award.

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09-12-2013, 09:05 AM
  #17
Sentinel
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Lemieux '93
Fedorov '94
Hasek '98
Jagr '99
Hasek '97
Hull '91
Lemieux '96
Lindros '95
Messier '90 and '92

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Old
09-12-2013, 09:08 AM
  #18
VanIslander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Hasek 1998
Messier 1990
Hasek 1997
Messier 1992
Lindros 1995
Those are the ones I remember the most.

Bourque and Forsberg got robbed, but that's another matter.

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09-12-2013, 09:13 AM
  #19
Psycho Papa Joe
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Forwards have the Rocket Richard, Art Ross, Selke. Those writers are dumb.
Same people voted for AO to Allstar LW and RW positions.

That said, dmen can win the Art and Rocket.

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09-12-2013, 09:25 AM
  #20
tony d
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Lemieux 1993
Hasek 1997
Lemieux 1996
Hasek 1998
Jagr 1999
Hull 1991
Fedorov 1994
Messier 1992
Lindros 1995
Messier 1990

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09-12-2013, 09:30 AM
  #21
Dennis Bonvie
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I can't justify Lemieux that low at all. I realize he sat out the 2nd game of back to backs which inflated his per-game averages, but still: 161 points in a season where no non-teammate had more than 120.
When 9 teammates have better +/- numbers (most of them significantly better), I could justify that season being low in comparison.

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09-12-2013, 09:32 AM
  #22
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Double post, sorry. But I can probably put Hasek 97 over Jagr 99 and Messier 90 over Lindros 95 too.


Last edited by Sentinel: 09-13-2013 at 09:15 AM.
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Old
09-12-2013, 09:51 AM
  #23
MXD
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Mario Lemieux 1993
Hasek 1998
Lemieux 1996
Hasek 1997
Jagr 1999
Fedorov 1994
Hull 1991
Messier 1990
Messier 1992
Lindros 1995

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Old
09-12-2013, 09:52 AM
  #24
Hawkey Town 18
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A few comments...

- I don't really see how Hull's 91' can be ranked above Lemieux's 96'. Both players bring pretty much nothing but offense. Hull has 16 more goals, but Lemieux has 30 more points, and league scoring is over a half a goal per game lower Lemieux's year.

- Lindros' 95' is an easy last for me, mostly because it's a short season. Considering his injury record, I have high doubts Lindros even wins the Hart if that's a full season.

- I definitely understand Messier's 94' being one of the lowest, but I don't understand some of the low rankings of his 90' season. The Bourque issue really should have no affect here.

- I also have no idea where to slot Hasek

Here are my tiers for the forwards...

Lemieux 93

Fedorov 94, Jagr 99

Lemieux 96, Messier 90

Hull 91

Messier 94, Lindros 95

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Old
09-12-2013, 09:58 AM
  #25
weaponomega
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Lemieux 1993
Hasek 1998
Hull 1991
Jagr 1999
Hasek 1997
Fedorov 1994
Lindros 1995
Messier 1992
Lemieux 1996
Messier 1990

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