HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

HHOF Trade Game

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-16-2013, 05:29 PM
  #51
Killion
Registered User
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Village
Country: Wales
Posts: 30,337
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
but also, re: pioneer status, didn't he basically invent the goalie coach?
I guess you could make an argument for Allaire but I think it tenuous at best. Better his disciples who actually played get inducted. Plenty of satisfaction in that.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-16-2013, 06:04 PM
  #52
vadim sharifijanov
ugh
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,051
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I guess you could make an argument for Allaire but I think it tenuous at best. Better his disciples who actually played get inducted. Plenty of satisfaction in that.
i don't know. and honestly, my allaire comment was just being contrarian or trying to think outside the box. but other than roy obviously, and then maybe luongo depending on how the next few years go and how long he can maintain at a high level, which of allaire's other students amounted to anything resembling a hall of famer? but you just saw allaire place a hugely disproportionate number of quebecois goalies in the league, to the point where he probably at least partially responsible for almost half the goalies from the 90s up to the second lockout. some were better than others (theodore and giguere vs. i don't know, jc bergeron), but the sheer number vs. any other province, or hell country, suggests to me that the man was making careers. because it wasn't the drinking water in the 70s that these guys were drinking as babies that made all of them pros right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I'll put Goulet ahead of him. I know that Goulet faded faster from 1990 onwards, while Gartner didn't, and Goulet was finished with that awful injury in 1994, but at his peak he was better. Goulet was dominant in 1984, second only to Gretzky and Coffey in points. But more so, he was cracking 50+ goals when Gartner was hitting 40+. Overall the edge is to Goulet.

Mullen is closer to Gartner, and to be honest it would be an interesting comparison. Mullen had that big year in 1989 but other than that if you asked yourself who you wanted on your team would people overwhelmingly pick Mullen? In this case, I think Gartner slightly had the better career. Mullen is a guy people complain about but others defend him and figure he's pretty much the cut off. If Gartner is above him, and I think he is, then Gartner is above the cut off.

Eventually I could see Hossa, Alfredsson and even Elias perhaps getting in. Although more likely for the first two.
mullen vs. gartner is interesting in terms of longevity vs. prime. but i always go with mullen not just because of his peak year (which includes a top ten all-time playoff goal total) but also his prime. 41, 40, 44, 47, 40, 51 is better than any six year stretch of gartner's career. if you factor in assists, mullen is solidly ahead there too. and of course, the playoff records are incomparable. i hear you, a 200 goal disparity is very hard to ignore and makes me think twice. but i think people would overwhelmingly take mullen, or at least a clear majority would at any point from mullen's second 40 goal year up to the end of the 80s. and maybe even as early as '82 depending on how much one values big game playoff bona fides. admittedly, the number of all-star games each guy was selected to in the 80s suggests otherwise but i think even insofar as gartner was underrated most of his career, he did have the advantage of being in a bigger east coast market, as well as being the flashier player.

i actually think elias should (but doesn't) have a better shot than hossa and alfredsson if all of them retired today. i see elias as a mark recchi without the crazy career length, alfredsson as federko with longevity, and hossa as a rich man's gartner. even with the conditionals on those comparisons, i still feel like recchi > federko > gartner holds enough in terms of the types of players those were and the respective impacts and meaningfulness of their careers.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-16-2013, 09:02 PM
  #53
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,407
vCash: 500
Considering Gartner and Mullen played at the exact same time we can use raw numbers to compare them.

Gartner scored 50, 49, 48, 48, 45, 45, 41, 40, 40
Mullen scored 51, 47, 44, 42, 41, 40, 40

Gartner had 93 points in 122 playoff games
Mullen had 106 points in 143 playoff games

Yes he did have two good runs, 1989 being one and 1986 the other, but Mullen was a pretty good playoff guy, not what I would call a "great" playoff performer.

When we look at it this way, both players had a lot of 40+ goal seasons, but Gartner had more.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-16-2013, 09:22 PM
  #54
Ed Wood
Registered User
 
Ed Wood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,388
vCash: 500
Remove Clark Gillies. Add John Tonelli.

Remove Dick Duff. Add J.C. Tremblay.

Ed Wood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-16-2013, 09:50 PM
  #55
vadim sharifijanov
ugh
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,051
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Considering Gartner and Mullen played at the exact same time we can use raw numbers to compare them.

Gartner scored 50, 49, 48, 48, 45, 45, 41, 40, 40
Mullen scored 51, 47, 44, 42, 41, 40, 40

Gartner had 93 points in 122 playoff games
Mullen had 106 points in 143 playoff games

Yes he did have two good runs, 1989 being one and 1986 the other, but Mullen was a pretty good playoff guy, not what I would call a "great" playoff performer.

When we look at it this way, both players had a lot of 40+ goal seasons, but Gartner had more.
points:

mullen: 110, 92, 90, 87, 87, 85, 84, 70, 70, 69

gartner: 102, 94, 86, 85, 81, 81, 80, 76, 75, 73, 69, 69, 68, 68

in a sense we're splitting hairs at the top, but i do think more 90 point years, and more 85 point years indicates a more potent offensive player, albeit only slightly, in his prime.

as for playoffs, mullen was no gilmour, for sure. but "pretty good" is a lot better than pretty weak for a star player, which is gartner's playoff resume. mullen had two excellent years as a key guy, leading the playoffs in goals both years. then two other pretty good runs as a support guy, both on teams that weren't the flames. gartner only really ever hit that pretty good level once in his entire career.

if you take out the post-prime seasons that lower mullen's playoff scoring average, he's at 92 points in 102 games. good for 11th in that time span ('82-'91), and 8th in goals, 13th in goals/game.

i think mullen has become underrated over time, due to being a low rung hall of fame guy that people point to as an example of declining standards. federko is another guy i'd put in that category. but even though i have mullen solidly below elias, and mullen as my baseline guy for wingers, i think in the period bookended by his two great finals runs, he was a true year-in, year-out star. which i think is above a larmer or a bellows or a ciccarelli. i don't think gartner ever in his career transcended that category of scoring wingers; he just had more of what they were than they did.

mullen's best stretch, goal placements at the top, point placements at the bottom:

13 07 23 05
19 14 26 07

gartner's entire career:

28 10 40 24 19 09 34 11 09 36 09 05 14 19 35 85 28 24
50 17 42 36 29 10 45 40 31 48 28 45 26 85 75 xx 94 42

it's kind of eye-opening to see how sporadically gartner even hit the top 25 in league scoring. when mullen broke out in '84, he basically was gartner for a couple of years. then he had his prime. then he went back to being gartner for four more years, then he fell off and retired a little after. that's a 10 years of gartner-ing, with a four year prime that gartner didn't touch. if it was rick vaive, i'd concede the point, but those 10 years constitute a meaningful body of work to compare against gartner's 18.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2013, 03:16 AM
  #56
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,404
vCash: 500
Remove Bobby Bauer (another of those questionable Veteran's Committee picks)
Add Vladimir Martinec

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2013, 05:14 PM
  #57
Prophecy35
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 237
vCash: 500
Remove Shorty Green
Add Boris Mikhailov

Updated!

Added
Guy Carbonneau
Sergei Makarov
Claude Provost
Rogie Vachon
Eric Lindros
J.C. Tremblay
Sven Tumba
Jiri Holecek
Tom Barrasso
Carl Brewer
Anatoli Firsov
Theoren Fleury
Sid Smith
Dave Kerr
Lorne Chabot
Rick Martin
Rick Middleton
Curtis Joseph
Valeri Vasiliev
Bernie Morris
Vladimir Martinec
Boris Mikhailov

Removed
Mike Gartner
Steve Shutt
Dick Duff
Dino Ciccarelli
Mats Sundin
Edgar Laprade
Harry Watson
Bernie Federko
Ed Giacomin
Leo Boivin
Harold Ballard
Joe Nieuwendyk
Clark Gillies
Lanny McDonald
Oliver Seibert
Joe Mullen
Clint Smith
Gerry Cheevers
Buddy O’Connor
Jack Ruttan
Bobby Bauer
Shorty Green

Prophecy35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2013, 05:46 PM
  #58
Killion
Registered User
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Village
Country: Wales
Posts: 30,337
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i don't know. and honestly, my allaire comment was just being contrarian or trying to think outside the box....but you just saw allaire place a hugely disproportionate number of quebecois goalies in the league... but the sheer number vs. any other province, or hell country, suggests to me that the man was making careers. because it wasn't the drinking water in the 70s that these guys were drinking as babies that made all of them pros right?
Sure, perhaps. I certainly wouldnt have any problem with creating a special HHOF category that recognizes people who through coaching and or equipment design contributed to the game in meaningful ways. Absolutely. Would be a great way to honor & recognize them. However if one applies current standards I just dont see an Allaire or perhaps Laura Stamm with her innovative Power Skating techniques & training programs being eligible in the Builders Category without broadening the scope somewhat.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2013, 06:35 PM
  #59
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,626
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Litework View Post
I would want to take my kid to a HOF that was exclusive, and only allowed players that defined greatness.
You'd have to toss out damn near half the hall then

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2013, 12:12 AM
  #60
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,299
vCash: 931
Remove Rick Martin
Add Vladimir Petrov

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2013, 01:16 PM
  #61
McGuillicuddy
Registered User
 
McGuillicuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,036
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Right



Alright, the talk about the Canada Cup was a little shortsighted. He was important in 1987 for sure. 1984 he had 5 points. Not elite fine, but not non-essential either.

The thing with Gartner is that he is a unique case. He scored 708 goals. That's a lot of mustard in the NHL and especially for a guy who never hung around the game too long to pad his stats. Gartner was good until the end. 32 goals his second to last season. Wasn't the best goal scorer in the world at any time but finished in the top 10 five times, and finished 10th in points once. That isn't sexy enough, but what is, is the fact that he played in the greatest league in the world and scored some serious longevity. When many players died down in the 1990s, he continued to truck on. Eventually you have to give a player that kind of credit by being good for that long. He didn't flame out, his speed meant he was a goal scorer until the end. For me, I make an exception to Gartner because he is such a unique case that we may never see again. He didn't score at a torrid pace, but a very good pace, and did it through two decades and in all honesty it barely depreciated in value as time wore on in the 1990s.
That 'stache also adds value for sure.

McGuillicuddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2013, 01:18 PM
  #62
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,404
vCash: 500
Remove Tom Hooper
Add Jan Suchy

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2013, 01:19 PM
  #63
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,404
vCash: 500
Remove Dick Irvin as a player
Add Dick Irvin as a builder

Is this one allowed?

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-18-2013, 08:30 PM
  #64
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 33,832
vCash: 500
Remove Theoren Fleury
Add Vladimir Dzurilla

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:07 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2016 All Rights Reserved.