HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Historical dearth of Quebecois on Team Canada

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-08-2005, 06:12 AM
  #26
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,403
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
I can't think of a Quebec born defencemen that would be in our top 20. DesJardins and Boucher would likely be the best Quebec-born defencemen right now. They're not worthy of our C team.
For a two week tournament give me a healthy Desjardins over Brewer and Bouwmeester any day of the week.

John Flyers Fan is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 06:47 AM
  #27
Bring Back Bucky
Registered User
 
Bring Back Bucky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Delicieux!
Country: Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 7,929
vCash: 968
Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
I notice you dont use the word "viagara" (sic) in your libellous statements anymore. figured all you had to do was to look at the bottle on your night table to spell it right.

Thanks for correcting my spelling!! Some time I'll return the favor by explaining to you what libel means

Thanks again for your continued interest, but as I stated before, I'm not looking for more than friendship, please keep your musings away from my night stand..

Please stick to the topic, we're trying to identify who the "jilted" players that deserved a place but denied it due to their native tongue are..

Bring Back Bucky is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 09:16 AM
  #28
Psycho Papa Joe
Porkchop Hoser
 
Psycho Papa Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cesspool, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,349
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
For a two week tournament give me a healthy Desjardins over Brewer and Bouwmeester any day of the week.
It's not 1998 anymore.

Psycho Papa Joe is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 09:28 AM
  #29
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,403
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
It's not 1998 anymore.
I don't have a proble puttin ght e guys on the team if they're there more for experience, but IMO Bouwmeester isn't close to being a top 6/7 Canadian defenseman at this point in his career.

Desjardins certainly isn't the player he once was, but if he's healthy and my life was on the line I'll take him over Bouwmeester 8 days a week.

John Flyers Fan is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 09:48 AM
  #30
Psycho Papa Joe
Porkchop Hoser
 
Psycho Papa Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cesspool, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,349
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I don't have a proble puttin ght e guys on the team if they're there more for experience, but IMO Bouwmeester isn't close to being a top 6/7 Canadian defenseman at this point in his career.

Desjardins certainly isn't the player he once was, but if he's healthy and my life was on the line I'll take him over Bouwmeester 8 days a week.
Perhaps, but there are many other d-man I would take ahead of Desjardins in the 6/7 spot if they decide not to go with Bouwmeester.

Psycho Papa Joe is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 09:57 AM
  #31
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,403
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
Perhaps, but there are many other d-man I would take ahead of Desjardins in the 6/7 spot if they decide not to go with Bouwmeester.
I wasn't arguing that Desjardins is still one of Canada's 6 or 7 best, just that I'd take him over Bouwmeester and Brewer for a short tournament.

John Flyers Fan is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 10:03 AM
  #32
Zopust
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 286
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I don't have a proble puttin ght e guys on the team if they're there more for experience, but IMO Bouwmeester isn't close to being a top 6/7 Canadian defenseman at this point in his career.
I'm guessing you don't follow Team Canada at major international competitions, particularly the World Championships where he was named the Best Defenceman of the tournament in 2003, where Canada won gold. He was also instrumental in the following year's victory as well, playing lots of minutes and jumping into the rush.

He is a very smooth skating mobile defenceman in the Scott Niedermeyer mould, but slightly more physical.

On the larger ice surface, Bouwmeester was one of the best players on the ice. His offensive saavy is a distinct contrast to someone like Ed Jovonovski, who still hasn't figured out when to rush and pinch and when to hang back.

He also won a Gold medal in the 2004 World Cup.

It can be difficult to rank Canada's D across two different-sized ice surface, but in my opinion it would be:

1. Pronger
2. Blake
3. Niedermeyer
4. Foote
5. Redden
6. Brewer
7. Bouwmeester
8. Regehr
9. Jovonovski
10. Hannan

Keep in mind, this is off the top of my head.

Zopust is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 10:18 AM
  #33
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,403
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zopust
I'm guessing you don't follow Team Canada at major international competitions, particularly the World Championships where he was named the Best Defenceman of the tournament in 2003, where Canada won gold. He was also instrumental in the following year's victory as well, playing lots of minutes and jumping into the rush.

He is a very smooth skating mobile defenceman in the Scott Niedermeyer mould, but slightly more physical.

On the larger ice surface, Bouwmeester was one of the best players on the ice. His offensive saavy is a distinct contrast to someone like Ed Jovonovski, who still hasn't figured out when to rush and pinch and when to hang back.

He also won a Gold medal in the 2004 World Cup.

It can be difficult to rank Canada's D across two different-sized ice surface, but in my opinion it would be:

1. Pronger
2. Blake
3. Niedermeyer
4. Foote
5. Redden
6. Brewer
7. Bouwmeester
8. Regehr
9. Jovonovski
10. Hannan

Keep in mind, this is off the top of my head.
#1. The 2003 & 2004 versions of the World Cahmps weren't a best-on-best tourney.

#2. I think Bouwmeesters offensive instincts are terrible With his sakting ability he shoul dbe a much better offensive player than he is.

#3. don't hink he's more physical than Niedermayer.

John Flyers Fan is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 10:41 AM
  #34
Zopust
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 286
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
#1. The 2003 & 2004 versions of the World Cahmps weren't a best-on-best tourney.

#2. I think Bouwmeesters offensive instincts are terrible With his sakting ability he shoul dbe a much better offensive player than he is.

#3. don't hink he's more physical than Niedermayer.
1. True.

But he scored the game winner against the Swedes in the big comeback in 2004 on one of the finest goals I've ever seen. And the Swedes had Sundin, Forsberg, Lidstrom, Alfredsson, Naslund, if I recall correctly. In fact, I don't think he's been on a losing team.

The World Championships have a lot more credibility of late, and the quality of the players attending has vastly improved. The US seems to be the only exception, although it is a good way for them to try and get their young guys some international experience. They haven't really had a fluid transition from the geriatrics to the up and comers.

2. I disagree.

3. I disagree.

Anyway, this is a tangent from the thread, so I'll let it be.

Zopust is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 11:59 AM
  #35
Snap Wilson
Registered User
 
Snap Wilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,838
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
chooch certainly treats it that way. His posts are very anti English.

I bet he has a BQ membership card.

What's wrong with that? I have one myself.



Edit: Oh wait, I thought that said GQ. Never mind.

A snazzy dresser,
MoneyP

Snap Wilson is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 12:18 PM
  #36
Kafka
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Montreal
Country: Martinique
Posts: 5,301
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
LOL. Please explain how they are not anti-English
The question is more: explain how they are anti-English....

Kafka is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 12:51 PM
  #37
Aethon
12 Axes
 
Aethon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 36,862
vCash: 500
Can I ask a stupid question; what is B Q?

Is it the separation Movement or something like that??? Sorry for my ignorance

Aethon is online now  
Old
07-08-2005, 02:03 PM
  #38
Zopust
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 286
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEIV
Can I ask a stupid question; what is B Q?

Is it the separation Movement or something like that??? Sorry for my ignorance
Canada has a multi-party system.

There are two "separatist" political parties in Quebec.

The Bloc Quebecois (BQ) which occupies seats in the federal parliament based in Ottawa. At one point, they had enough seats to be the Official Opposition (2nd most seats in government)

And the Parti Quebecois (PQ) which occupies seats in the provincial parliament for the province of Quebec based in Quebec City, and was the leading party for a time, forming the provincial government.

Since they don't run in the same jurisdictions (state vs. federal) they're not competitors, and have a working relationship.

Both parties have strong support in Quebec, and while there hasn't been a serious separatist movement since the 1995 referendum, both are still considered to have the separation of Quebec from Canada in some capacity as an objective.

I won't go in more detail as there is a political thread for this kind of stuff.

Zopust is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 02:35 PM
  #39
Aethon
12 Axes
 
Aethon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 36,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zopust
Canada has a multi-party system.

There are two "separatist" political parties in Quebec.

The Bloc Quebecois (BQ) which occupies seats in the federal parliament based in Ottawa. At one point, they had enough seats to be the Official Opposition (2nd most seats in government)

And the Parti Quebecois (PQ) which occupies seats in the provincial parliament for the province of Quebec based in Quebec City, and was the leading party for a time, forming the provincial government.

Since they don't run in the same jurisdictions (state vs. federal) they're not competitors, and have a working relationship.

Both parties have strong support in Quebec, and while there hasn't been a serious separatist movement since the 1995 referendum, both are still considered to have the separation of Quebec from Canada in some capacity as an objective.

I won't go in more detail as there is a political thread for this kind of stuff.
Hey, Thank a Lot.........Appreciate it.

Aethon is online now  
Old
07-08-2005, 04:59 PM
  #40
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafka
The question is more: explain how they are anti-English....
They are championing the separation from Canada simply to "maintain Quebecois heritage".

I always thought Canada was a mix of cultures. Apparently the BQ is very much against that.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 05:45 PM
  #41
Malefic74
Registered User
 
Malefic74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Halfway between Nothing and Not Much Else
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,758
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
For a two week tournament give me a healthy Desjardins over Brewer and Bouwmeester any day of the week.
I agree with that. And 've been screaming for Recchi to be on a couple of these teams too, but no luck.

As for the French-English thing, it's total BS and always has been. And I say that as a French Canadian living in Edmonton.

In the early days of the franchise the Quebec Nordiques went out of their way to draft and acquire French players only; then they accused the Canadiens of having and anti-French bias because at the time the Habs had more English players than French. In return the Habs drubbed them everytime they met on the ice. Then after the Stastny's arrived the Nords started to win more than they lost including knocking of the Habs in 81-82 (on an OT winner by Hunter) and they started to cut out the French only policy and get guys like Dale Hunter, Brent Ashton and Tony McKegney.

Then, as now, the best guys or the guys who fit certain roles make the team and play. Period.

Malefic74 is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 07:03 PM
  #42
chooch*
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 946
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattintheHatt
Just curious, name some good Canadian Quebecois players who deserve to be on Team Canada as opposed to the current usual players.
Take a good look at the rosters of any Canada Cup; see if Guy Carbonneau couldnt fit in (maybe he wasnt "well-rounded" enough coming from Quebec, eh pardner); If Russ Courtnall made the 91 Canada Cup....

What about Benoit Brunet another player who wasnt "well-rounded". How about Denis Savard for offence - oops another player who wasnt part of the Slats clique.

Defencemen? No shortage of those from Quebec; just erase the stigmas. "QJMHL doesnt produce d-men" - thats a crock argument meant to cover up other reasons? Try Raymond Bourque the best defencemen since Orr.

ps. I dont see "a lot of" Quebec goalies on any Canada Cup teams.

Just like in the old days if you were an Eagleson client, same thing the past 20 years.

I dont condone what the Nords did with their French only policy in their early days -it was pathetic and should have been stopped at the league level - just like I dont condone what the Oilers have done the past 25 years - 30 or so French Canadians out of 1000 players is appalling.

And again, its unpopular to say these things...you get called names by guys hiding on the Net..so what?


Last edited by chooch*; 07-08-2005 at 07:09 PM..
chooch* is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 08:01 PM
  #43
God Bless Canada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bentley reunion
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,793
vCash: 500
It's not a matter of whether Quebec has produced quality defencemen in the past. They have. (Bourque, Potvin and Harvey are three of the five best ever IMO). But they haven't produced a quality defenceman since DesJardins in 1987. He's not even in the radar for Team Canada anymore. In fact, it could be argued that DesJardins is the best Quebec-born defenceman in the league today. That's something that the powers that be in Quebec hockey should find troublesome. (Phillipe Boucher would likely be No. 2).

Benoit Brunet good enough for Team Canada? Non. Was never considered an elite defensive forward. Good, serviceable player who overcame some serious injuries to play a solid, third line role for more than 500 games, but he was never good enough to warrant consideration for Team Canada. He could have been born in Thunder Bay, Ontario; Carlyle, Saskatchewan; or Powell River, B.C., it would have made no difference. Benoit Brunet wasn't good enough to play for Canada.

Savard's rejection wasn't due to Sather. Sather invited the players to camp, then let Mike Keenan make the decisions. Keenan had the hate-on for Savard for years. (Team Canada dropped the training camp system in 1991).

God Bless Canada is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 08:50 PM
  #44
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Take a good look at the rosters of any Canada Cup; see if Guy Carbonneau couldnt fit in (maybe he wasnt "well-rounded" enough coming from Quebec, eh pardner); If Russ Courtnall made the 91 Canada Cup....

What about Benoit Brunet another player who wasnt "well-rounded". How about Denis Savard for offence - oops another player who wasnt part of the Slats clique.

Defencemen? No shortage of those from Quebec; just erase the stigmas. "QJMHL doesnt produce d-men" - thats a crock argument meant to cover up other reasons? Try Raymond Bourque the best defencemen since Orr.

ps. I dont see "a lot of" Quebec goalies on any Canada Cup teams.

Just like in the old days if you were an Eagleson client, same thing the past 20 years.

I dont condone what the Nords did with their French only policy in their early days -it was pathetic and should have been stopped at the league level - just like I dont condone what the Oilers have done the past 25 years - 30 or so French Canadians out of 1000 players is appalling.

And again, its unpopular to say these things...you get called names by guys hiding on the Net..so what?

You are a freaking comedian.

Kevin Lowe is from Lachute. Why would he blackball Quebecois?

Or is he "too English" to be a true Quebecer?


When a player is good enough, they make the team. Brodeur, Gagne, Lecavalier, Lemieux etc. It takes a very petty mind to nitpick and groan about geography.

Even still, Quebec should contribute 1/7th of the players on Team Canada anyway. If you count each province and lump the maritimes into a group itself because of small populations. That means 3 Quebecois should be on any team Canada. Groaning about not having any more than that is foolishness.


Last edited by Ogopogo*; 07-08-2005 at 09:31 PM..
Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 09:43 PM
  #45
chooch*
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 946
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
You are a freaking comedian.

Kevin Lowe is from Lachute. Why would he blackball Quebecois?

Or is he "too English" to be a true Quebecer?


When a player is good enough, they make the team. Brodeur, Gagne, Lecavalier, Lemieux etc. It takes a very petty mind to nitpick and groan about geography.

Even still, Quebec should contribute 1/7th of the players on Team Canada anyway. If you count each province and lump the maritimes into a group itself because of small populations. That means 3 Quebecois should be on any team Canada. Groaning about not having any more than that is foolishness.
Why dont you stick to so-and-so finished second in the norris trophy voting therefore he is better than Cy Denenny, at least those posts distinguish you from Buchberger idolizers........what are you doing on a History site?


Last edited by chooch*; 07-08-2005 at 10:08 PM..
chooch* is offline  
Old
07-08-2005, 10:19 PM
  #46
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 41,769
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Defencemen? No shortage of those from Quebec; just erase the stigmas. "QJMHL doesnt produce d-men" - thats a crock argument meant to cover up other reasons? Try Raymond Bourque the best defencemen since Orr.

ps. I dont see "a lot of" Quebec goalies on any Canada Cup teams.
How many Quebecois defensemen in the NHL can you name right now off the top of your head?

The lack of Quebec goalies on Canada Cup teams in the 70s and 80s can be explained by the fact that the Quebec goaltending revolution had not happened yet. In the 80s, when Roy was around, the goaltending position was dominated by the goalies from the Oilers and Flames, which isn't exactly wrong, considering that the Oilers were a dynasty and the Flames were probably the second best team of that era. The last time I checked, Martin Brodeur, Roberto Luongo and Jose Theodore were all from Quebec. In 2002, the Canadian starter was Martin Brodeur. In 1998, the starter was Patrick Roy.

Stephen is offline  
Old
07-09-2005, 06:21 AM
  #47
arnie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 520
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Not being French Canadian nor wanting to start a cat fight but mindful as we all should be of such matters (and Canadians thankfully are mindfull of these things), is anyone concerned at the historically low percentage of Quebecois players on Team Canada? Is it even so - maybe someone should do a % comparision versus the # of Quebec players in the league since 72.

Short of being a Boston Red Sox situation since we arent talking about integration necessarily, but rather a fairness issue. You look at the 1996 World Cup team; or Gretzky's 2002 squad. Patrick Roy said no and hinted at many reasons.

3 players? In 72/76 there were 8 or so.

Is it because those picking have been usually not from Quebec? Montrealers Scotty and Sam picked 76, the greatest team ever. Or has the province not developed its players. It seems unless you're a Mario or Lecav talent wise, you might be taking a back seat.
I don't know about Team Canada, but anyone who thinks that there isn't a bias against French players by the Canadian Anglo, and I mean mainly the Ontario, old boy network is crazy.

People seem to forget how badly Lemieux was treated by the press before his retirement. And you don't have to go back very far to remember Don Cherry's tirade against wimpy French players who wear visors. These are just the tip of the iceberg. It doesn't get talked about much, but anti-French bigotry is very strong in Canadian hockey. Probably less so today than in the past, but it exists.

The trouble with most Americans who comment on such stuff is that they have no history of Anglo-French animostity in Canada, so they don't know what they are talkling about.

arnie is offline  
Old
07-09-2005, 07:04 AM
  #48
Tb0ne
Registered User
 
Tb0ne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,422
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Tb0ne
If that is the case in the past, there is no reason why it can't change.

Don Cherry isn't going to live forever.

Tb0ne is offline  
Old
07-09-2005, 10:15 AM
  #49
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,101
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
#1. The 2003 & 2004 versions of the World Cahmps weren't a best-on-best tourney.

#2. I think Bouwmeesters offensive instincts are terrible With his sakting ability he shoul dbe a much better offensive player than he is.

#3. don't hink he's more physical than Niedermayer.
Can't agree with you on this one John. I really like everything I've seen of J Bo exceppt for the length of his name which causes me to use these silly abbreviations that I abhor. I agree that he probably won't be a great offensive guy, the instinct isn't there. I'd call it not great,rather than terrible though. I'd take him over Desjardins just for his recovery ability. I like the idea of as much pure speed as you can get in a lineup.

mcphee is offline  
Old
07-09-2005, 10:23 AM
  #50
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,101
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnie
I don't know about Team Canada, but anyone who thinks that there isn't a bias against French players by the Canadian Anglo, and I mean mainly the Ontario, old boy network is crazy.

People seem to forget how badly Lemieux was treated by the press before his retirement. And you don't have to go back very far to remember Don Cherry's tirade against wimpy French players who wear visors. These are just the tip of the iceberg. It doesn't get talked about much, but anti-French bigotry is very strong in Canadian hockey. Probably less so today than in the past, but it exists.

The trouble with most Americans who comment on such stuff is that they have no history of Anglo-French animostity in Canada, so they don't know what they are talkling about.
Sure it exists. It exist in every sport and every business. When a football player dances in the end zone 10 minutes or goes crazy after a 6 yard run, no one here has ever considered his color in their criticism ? Not real nice,nor real fair, but stereotyping exists. Chooch put up 2 good examples in Carbo and Denis Savard, though, I don't really think their exclusion was for that reason. Maybe I'm naive, but some players, like Carbo, get appreciated when they're on the downside of their careers. Savard, I don't know, didn't he make 1 team ? Didn't he get cut from another ? I agree that their are hockey people who have pre-conceived notions about certain players, French or otherwise, but I just don't believe a Denis Savard didn't make a team because he was born in Verdun.

mcphee is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:44 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.