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2013-2014 Training Camp/Preseason Discussion Thread Part 2

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Old
09-17-2013, 03:58 PM
  #576
Krampus
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Girardi is a cyborg
Girardi is a warrior
Girardi is fearless
Girardi is a great guy
Girardi is a great hockey player
Girardi is everything you want in a player
Girardi is a true (and hopefully career) Ranger
Girardi is NOT a top 20 defenseman

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09-17-2013, 04:04 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Its not that Im giving him little credit. I think hes a very good player. I am just not putting him in the elite category. He is an ideal complimentary piece to an elite partner -- thats obviously wonderful to have.

But if the Rangers ever found themselves in a situation where Girardi would have to be the #1 guy, it wouldnt be so wonderful.
okay, I agree with you here. but imagine if we get him back to where he was in 2011-2012? yikes.

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09-17-2013, 04:23 PM
  #578
Barbara Underhill
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I find it funny some people were offended that Staal wasn't in the top 50 after missing most of the last two seasons, and are apparently offended that Girardi is in the top 20.

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Old
09-17-2013, 04:24 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by nils2317 View Post
Girardi is a great guy
I don't know... I follow him on twitter and he seems like kind of a jerk. Always cursing and trying to pick up underage girls.

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09-17-2013, 04:28 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
I don't know... I follow him on twitter and he seems like kind of a jerk. Always cursing and trying to pick up underage girls.
Wrong Girardi.

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Old
09-17-2013, 04:32 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
You are just egregiously wrong.

Girardi has been recognized as a top Dman in the league by his all star selection, his Norris rankings. This is not something new.
These are his numbers the last 3 years

12-13
GP: 46
TOI: 8th
Hits: 20th
Blocks: 1st
Points: 14
+/-: -1

11-12
GP: 82
TOI: 6th
Hits: 8th
Blocks: 5th
Points: 29
+/-: +13

10-11
GP: 80
TOI: 16th
Hits: 10th
Blocks: 1st
Points: 31
+/-: +7

He is workhorse, who has missed 4 games in his entire career. He's a warrior, plays hurt ... Broken noses. Stiches. Big injuries that would sideline many other hockey players. He consistently plays against the opposition best players and shuts them down. He brings it every night.
29 years old. A very likeable teammate. Someone who doesn't carry any baggage either. Great locker room guy and one of our Alternates.

Girardi is underrated on these boards because he doesn't have the sexy offensive game, it still doesn't take away from his outstanding shutdown D.
Anybody can have a different opinion of Girardi, but the numbers don't lie. They point to Girardi as a top shutdown Dmen in the league.
Why are you listing hits and blocks? Awful statistics to use when evaluating a player's value. Can be used to identify style of play, but being ranked high in hits and blocks (and takeaways) is actually a negative indicator of performance as you need the other team to have the puck to record such an event.

Let's do an in depth analysis. I will try to be as objective as possible.

Hypothesis: Dan Girardi has made himself a name in the NHL by playing with two fantastic partners in Marc Staal and especially Ryan McDonagh.

Let's look at the past three seasons in reverse order starting with 2012-13:

Last season Dan Girardi was primarily partnered up with McDonagh for ~430 minutes of zone start adjusted 5v5 ice time. In those 430 minutes the Rangers did as follows:

GF60: 1.812, GA60: 2.508, GD60: -0.696
CF60: 61.44, CA60: 58.80, CD60: +2.64

So the Rangers were significantly outscored with them on the ice. However, they played very tough minutes and the Rangers were unlucky with the shooting percentages last season, they did at least slightly control the play. So let's examine how the two players did without each other for comparison. Girardi played ~320 minutes without McDonagh, McDonagh ~370 without Girardi.

Girardi without McDonagh:
GF60: 2.073, GA60: 1.320, GD60: +0.753
CF60: 59.34, CA60: 63.87, CD60: -4.53

So Girardi actually performed better in regard to +/- away from McDonagh. But due to the short season I would downplay goal based stats as the sample gets so small, and the Rangers were unlucky with percentages last season. If we downplay the -0.696 they had together, we also have to downplay Girardi's +0.753 away from McDonagh.

Girardi's possession numbers took a big hit away from McDonagh and the Rangers were instead spending more time in their own end with McDonagh-less Girardi.

So how did McDonagh do without Girardi?

McDonagh without Girardi:
GF60: 3.705, GA60: 1.287, GD60: +2.418
CF60: 62.34, CA60: 49.29, CD60: +13.05

Wow, those numbers are gaudier than I expected. The Rangers were crushing their opponents, both in regard to goals scored (less relevant) and in regard to possession.

Conclusion: Girardi had a pretty brutal 2012-13 campaign.

But what about 2011-12 when he was an all-star?

Girardi and McDonagh spent ~1230 minutes of zone start adjusted 5v5 time on ice in 2011-12.

Girardi with McDonagh:
GF60: 2.535, GA60: 2.193, GD60: +0.342
CF60: 48.15, CA60: 50.55, CD60: -2.40

As a pairing they managed to come out ahead against top competition while being slightly outpossessed, an overall good job on a less dynamic Ranger team.

Now let's see how they did when apart. They spent a lot less time apart in 2011-12 despite the full season, both players played ~210 minutes away from each other.

Girardi without McDonagh:
GF60: 1.722, GA60: 2.871, GD60: -1.149
CF60: 46.80, CA60: 54.84, CD60: -8.04

Girardi had a very tough time away from McDonagh in 2011-12. The GD60 being over -1 is alarming, but goal based stats from only 200 minutes is very unreliable data. The Corsi data is more reliable due to the higher number of counted events, but it still looks bad there.

McDonagh without Girardi:
GF60: 2.874, GA60: 1.437, GD60: +1.437
CF60: 55.74, CA60: 56.91, CD60: -1.17

McDoangh once again improves his performance significantly away from Girardi. His GD60 is once again fantastic, outscoring his opposition 2-1. But still the less significant number due to sample size. Only a slight improvement in regard to possession but the 11-12 Rangers weren't, as earlier stated, a dynamic team.

Let's move on to 2010-11, Girardi's breakout year where he anchored the top pairing with Staal.

The pairing spent ~890 zone start adjusted minutes of 5v5 play together.

Girardi with Staal:
GF60: 2.286, GA60: 2.691, GD60: -0.405
CF60: 49.62, CA60: 52.44, CD60: -2.82

Outscored and outpossessed, but they faced very tough competition on a mediocre team. Not bad.

So how did they do apart? They weren't tied to the hip as much as McDonagh and Girardi in 2011-12 and both of them spent ~390 minutes apart.

Girardi without Staal:
GF60: 2.616, GA60: 2.769, GD60: -.153
CF60: 49.23, CA60: 63.69, CD60: -14.46

So Girardi's GD60 went up away from Staal, but as you should know the sample size heavily affects this figure. His possession numbers were on the other hand remarkably bad, they really surprised me. Overall a significant decline when away from Staal.

Staal without Girardi:
GF60: 2.325, GA60: 1.86, GD60: +0.465
CF60: 49.59, CA60: 51.45, CD60: -1.86

Staal when freed from Girardi improved in all aspects. His significant GD gain should not be emphasized much and he only improved slightly in possession, so overall a slight improvement away from Girardi.

Just as a bonus I will include McDonagh's numbers away from Girardi in 2010-11 over ~510 minutes:

McDonagh without Girardi:
GF60: 3.753, GA60: 2.463, GD60: +1.29
CF60: 54.30, CA60: 51.39, CD60: +2.91

For a player on the 2010-11 Rangers, fantastic numbers all around. Incredible performance from a rookie mid-season call up.

To summarize:

Girardi showed a significant decline in his game whenever separated from his partner, while the partner in question showed significant improvement after separation. Hypothesis confirmed.

Girardi's numbers actually took a bigger hit than I expected. I thought the 2012-13 numbers would be the worst, but they turned out to be the best!

How about trading Girardi to the Devils for Fayne? Any takers?


Last edited by Blue Blooded: 09-17-2013 at 05:08 PM.
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Old
09-17-2013, 04:33 PM
  #582
Kwayry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nils2317 View Post
Girardi is a cyborg
Girardi is a warrior
Girardi is fearless
Girardi is a great guy
Girardi is a great hockey player
Girardi is everything you want in a player
Girardi is a true (and hopefully career) Ranger
Girardi is NOT a top 20 defenseman
Numbers say he is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You'd be hard pressed to find another defenseman who has lived as charmed a life as Girardi, who has been lucky enough to play with Staal and McDonagh for the majority of his career.

Take him away from those 2, and his game ultimately slips.
This charmed life business is non sense, you keep repeating it hoping it sticks, but it's not reality.
Girardi has been playing at high level on his own. He partnered with Tyutin, Rozsival and emerged as a top 4 before Staal and McDonagh.

I can make the argument that those guys developed quickly because they had a steady partner in Girardi, they both actually do give him a lot of credit as do the coaches. But it seems like there is a segment of the fan base that can't accept that reality.

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Old
09-17-2013, 04:35 PM
  #583
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So hey, I was going to comment on Girardi but I think I'll just spend the afternoon reading bluebloodeds post

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Old
09-17-2013, 04:36 PM
  #584
Lerb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Numbers say he is.



This charmed life business is non sense, you keep repeating it hoping it sticks, but it's not reality.
Girardi has been playing at high level on his own. He partnered with Tyutin, Rozsival and emerged as a top 4 before Staal and McDonagh.

I can make the argument that those guys developed quickly because they had a steady partner in Girardi, they both actually do give him a lot of credit as do the coaches. But it seems like there is a segment of the fan base that can't accept that reality.
Girardi was top 4 because we sucked.

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Old
09-17-2013, 04:40 PM
  #585
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Girardi's ranking there is pretty much a consensus of most people involved in the game. He had a down season last year. Short memories, people.

And statistics simply don't tell the story about a defenseman. Ever.

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Old
09-17-2013, 04:48 PM
  #586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
You are just egregiously wrong.

Girardi has been recognized as a top Dman in the league by his all star selection, his Norris rankings. This is not something new.
These are his numbers the last 3 years

12-13
GP: 46
TOI: 8th
Hits: 20th
Blocks: 1st
Points: 14
+/-: -1

11-12
GP: 82
TOI: 6th
Hits: 8th
Blocks: 5th
Points: 29
+/-: +13

10-11
GP: 80
TOI: 16th
Hits: 10th
Blocks: 1st
Points: 31
+/-: +7

He is workhorse, who has missed 4 games in his entire career. He's a warrior, plays hurt ... Broken noses. Stiches. Big injuries that would sideline many other hockey players. He consistently plays against the opposition best players and shuts them down. He brings it every night.
29 years old. A very likeable teammate. Someone who doesn't carry any baggage either. Great locker room guy and one of our Alternates.

Girardi is underrated on these boards because he doesn't have the sexy offensive game, it still doesn't take away from his outstanding shutdown D.
Anybody can have a different opinion of Girardi, but the numbers don't lie. They point to Girardi as a top shutdown Dmen in the league.
Where have I seen this post before?!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You'd be hard pressed to find another defenseman who has lived as charmed a life as Girardi, who has been lucky enough to play with Staal and McDonagh for the majority of his career.

Take him away from those 2, and his game ultimately slips.
Yea, it would likely slip. But I don't think it would slip considerably. He would still be a top-tier dmen in this league. We're not talking about an All-Star/Norris candidate to a second-pairing dmen.

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Old
09-17-2013, 04:53 PM
  #587
Blue Blooded
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Where have I seen this post before?!




Yea, it would likely slip. But I don't think it would slip considerably. He would still be a top-tier dmen in this league. We're not talking about an All-Star/Norris candidate to a second-pairing dmen.
If you have the time, read the ridiculously long post above. Girardi has struggle mightily away from McD/Staal.

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Old
09-17-2013, 04:57 PM
  #588
Blue Blooded
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
And statistics simply don't tell the story about a defenseman. Ever.
So how well a defenceman prevents goals/shots/shot attempts against is totally meaningless?

I thought that was their primary task on the ice?

I mean pure points is usually a bad way to measure a defenceman's value, but that isn't at all what the above post is about.

It is about how the team performed with certain players on/off the ice.

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09-17-2013, 04:59 PM
  #589
Blue Blooded
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Originally Posted by nils2317 View Post
Girardi is a cyborg
Girardi is a warrior
Girardi is fearless
Girardi is a great guy
A good rule of thumb is that if these are the first four adjectives regarding a player, that player is likely not as good as most people think.

Clutterbuck is a cyborg
Clutterbuck is a warrior
Clutterbuck is fearless
Clutterbuck is a great guy

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09-17-2013, 05:06 PM
  #590
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As a complete defenseman, I would rank Girardi between 35th and 40th.

As a purely defensive defenseman, I would put him in the top 15.

He has been blessed with some very good defensive partners. He looks a lot worse playing with Del Zotto.

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09-17-2013, 05:11 PM
  #591
Raspewtin
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
I find it funny some people were offended that Staal wasn't in the top 50 after missing most of the last two seasons, and are apparently offended that Girardi is in the top 20.
I would accept the injury thing if they didn't put Mike Green on the list who can NOT stay healthy these days.

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09-17-2013, 05:15 PM
  #592
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Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
Why are you listing hits and blocks? Awful statistics to use when evaluating a player's value. Can be used to identify style of play, but being ranked high in hits and blocks (and takeaways) is actually a negative indicator of performance as you need the other team to have the puck to record such an event.
Hits and Blocks isn't an awful stat whatsoever. It magnifies the type of game Girardi plays, which, when you consider the rest of his intangibles, is actually quite impressive. He's the epitome of an iron-man, and neglecting that isn't fair.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
Hypothesis: Dan Girardi has made himself a name in the NHL by playing with two fantastic partners in Marc Staal and especially Ryan McDonagh.

Girardi made a name for himself before ever being paired with Staal. He compliments both Staal and McDonagh perfectly.

Just out of curiosity, what did Marc/Ryan's super duper advanced statistics look like when they weren't paired with Girardi?

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09-17-2013, 05:22 PM
  #593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Hits and Blocks isn't an awful stat whatsoever. It magnifies the type of game Girardi plays, which, when you consider the rest of his intangibles, is actually quite impressive. He's the epitome of an iron-man, and neglecting that isn't fair.






Girardi made a name for himself before ever being paired with Staal. He compliments both Staal and McDonagh perfectly.

Just out of curiosity, what did Marc/Ryan's super duper advanced statistics look like when they weren't paired with Girardi?
It is all in the above post.

Short version: Staal improved slightly, McDonagh improved massively.

I took a glance at the 2009-10 numbers as well and Staal improved significantly there as well.

And no, hits and blocks do not correlate with winning. At all. In fact blocks negatively correlate with winning. Not that a particular block doesn't help the team, but that a high amount suggests more shots attempts allowed which correlates with losing. So in the end blocks correlate with losing, and a high rank is something you want to avoid to the greatest extent possible.

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09-17-2013, 05:32 PM
  #594
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Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
It is all in the above post.

Short version: Staal improved slightly, McDonagh improved massively.

I took a glance at the 2009-10 numbers as well and Staal improved significantly there as well.

And no, hits and blocks do not correlate with winning. At all. In fact blocks negatively correlate with winning. Not that a particular block doesn't help the team, but that a high amount suggests more shots attempts allowed which correlates with losing. So in the end blocks correlate with losing, and a high rank is something you want to avoid to the greatest extent possible.
Interesting stuff. I don't put too much emphasis on Corsi ratings, but I'd be a hypocrite if I said they don't mean anything.

What I will say, as a former goalie, is the importance of blocked shots. Regardless of what corsi stats suggest, ask any goalie out there how they feel about their players blocking shots and you'll have a lopsided response.

And hitting is another stat that might not directly affect the scoreboard, but ask players of the game how a physical player impacts the game with a check. It can electrify the crowd, change morale, or most importantly, create a turnover.

When all is said and done, Girardi being a physical, shotblocking machine isn't a bad thing. I'll just disagree with Corsi ratings in general. Personally speaking, stats and hockey don't make as much sense as, stats and baseball.

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09-17-2013, 05:33 PM
  #595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
It is all in the above post.

Short version: Staal improved slightly, McDonagh improved massively.

I took a glance at the 2009-10 numbers as well and Staal improved significantly there as well.

And no, hits and blocks do not correlate with winning. At all. In fact blocks negatively correlate with winning. Not that a particular block doesn't help the team, but that a high amount suggests more shots attempts allowed which correlates with losing. So in the end blocks correlate with losing, and a high rank is something you want to avoid to the greatest extent possible.
I don't remember Girardi NOT playing against other teams top lines. I do remember both McD and Staal pairing with our lesser defensemen and playing against weaker opposition when they struggled and with less TOI (then again, my memory might be failing me ). So this with / without analysis you provided could be interpreted that when not playing with Girardi both McD and Staal had better statistics against weaker competition.

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09-17-2013, 05:36 PM
  #596
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Originally Posted by kovazub94 View Post
I don't remember Girardi NOT playing against other teams top lines. I do remember both McD and Staal pairing with our lesser defensemen and playing against weaker opposition when they struggled and with less TOI (then again, my memory might be failing me ). So this with / without analysis you provided could be interpreted that when not playing with Girardi both McD and Staal had better statistics against weaker competition.
It is a possibility, but Girardi's secondary parter has been Del Zotto in each year and I hardly remember Torts giving them the toughest minutes.

Girardi also didn't get more TOI than his parters when separated. In 2011-12 and 2010-11 the partners got virtually the same TOI separated and in 2012-13 McDonagh got more than Girardi.

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09-17-2013, 05:40 PM
  #597
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Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
Why are you listing hits and blocks? Awful statistics to use when evaluating a player's value. Can be used to identify style of play, but being ranked high in hits and blocks (and takeaways) is actually a negative indicator of performance as you need the other team to have the puck to record such an event.

Let's do an in depth analysis. I will try to be as objective as possible.

Hypothesis: Dan Girardi has made himself a name in the NHL by playing with two fantastic partners in Marc Staal and especially Ryan McDonagh.

Let's look at the past three seasons in reverse order starting with 2012-13:

Last season Dan Girardi was primarily partnered up with McDonagh for ~430 minutes of zone start adjusted 5v5 ice time. In those 430 minutes the Rangers did as follows:

GF60: 1.812, GA60: 2.508, GD60: -0.696
CF60: 61.44, CA60: 58.80, CD60: +2.64

So the Rangers were significantly outscored with them on the ice. However, they played very tough minutes and the Rangers were unlucky with the shooting percentages last season, they did at least slightly control the play. So let's examine how the two players did without each other for comparison. Girardi played ~320 minutes without McDonagh, McDonagh ~370 without Girardi.

Girardi without McDonagh:
GF60: 2.073, GA60: 1.320, GD60: +0.753
CF60: 59.34, CA60: 63.87, CD60: -4.53

So Girardi actually performed better in regard to +/- away from McDonagh. But due to the short season I would downplay goal based stats as the sample gets so small, and the Rangers were unlucky with percentages last season. If we downplay the -0.696 they had together, we also have to downplay Girardi's +0.753 away from McDonagh.

Girardi's possession numbers took a big hit away from McDonagh and the Rangers were instead spending more time in their own end with McDonagh-less Girardi.

So how did McDonagh do without Girardi?

McDonagh without Girardi:
GF60: 3.705, GA60: 1.287, GD60: +2.418
CF60: 62.34, CA60: 49.29, CD60: +13.05

Wow, those numbers are gaudier than I expected. The Rangers were crushing their opponents, both in regard to goals scored (less relevant) and in regard to possession.

Conclusion: Girardi had a pretty brutal 2012-13 campaign.

But what about 2011-12 when he was an all-star?

Girardi and McDonagh spent ~1230 minutes of zone start adjusted 5v5 time on ice in 2011-12.

Girardi with McDonagh:
GF60: 2.535, GA60: 2.193, GD60: +0.342
CF60: 48.15, CA60: 50.55, CD60: -2.40

As a pairing they managed to come out ahead against top competition while being slightly outpossessed, an overall good job on a less dynamic Ranger team.

Now let's see how they did when apart. They spent a lot less time apart in 2011-12 despite the full season, both players played ~210 minutes away from each other.

Girardi without McDonagh:
GF60: 1.722, GA60: 2.871, GD60: -1.149
CF60: 46.80, CA60: 54.84, CD60: -8.04

Girardi had a very tough time away from McDonagh in 2011-12. The GD60 being over -1 is alarming, but goal based stats from only 200 minutes is very unreliable data. The Corsi data is more reliable due to the higher number of counted events, but it still looks bad there.

McDonagh without Girardi:
GF60: 2.874, GA60: 1.437, GD60: +1.437
CF60: 55.74, CA60: 56.91, CD60: -1.17

McDoangh once again improves his performance significantly away from Girardi. His GD60 is once again fantastic, outscoring his opposition 2-1. But still the less significant number due to sample size. Only a slight improvement in regard to possession but the 11-12 Rangers weren't, as earlier stated, a dynamic team.

Let's move on to 2010-11, Girardi's breakout year where he anchored the top pairing with Staal.

The pairing spent ~890 zone start adjusted minutes of 5v5 play together.

Girardi with Staal:
GF60: 2.286, GA60: 2.691, GD60: -0.405
CF60: 49.62, CA60: 52.44, CD60: -2.82

Outscored and outpossessed, but they faced very tough competition on a mediocre team. Not bad.

So how did they do apart? They weren't tied to the hip as much as McDonagh and Girardi in 2011-12 and both of them spent ~390 minutes apart.

Girardi without Staal:
GF60: 2.616, GA60: 2.769, GD60: -.153
CF60: 49.23, CA60: 63.69, CD60: -14.46

So Girardi's GD60 went up away from Staal, but as you should know the sample size heavily affects this figure. His possession numbers were on the other hand remarkably bad, they really surprised me. Overall a significant decline when away from Staal.

Staal without Girardi:
GF60: 2.325, GA60: 1.86, GD60: +0.465
CF60: 49.59, CA60: 51.45, CD60: -1.86

Staal when freed from Girardi improved in all aspects. His significant GD gain should not be emphasized much and he only improved slightly in possession, so overall a slight improvement away from Girardi.

Just as a bonus I will include McDonagh's numbers away from Girardi in 2010-11 over ~510 minutes:

McDonagh without Girardi:
GF60: 3.753, GA60: 2.463, GD60: +1.29
CF60: 54.30, CA60: 51.39, CD60: +2.91

For a player on the 2010-11 Rangers, fantastic numbers all around. Incredible performance from a rookie mid-season call up.

To summarize:

Girardi showed a significant decline in his game whenever separated from his partner, while the partner in question showed significant improvement after separation. Hypothesis confirmed.

Girardi's numbers actually took a bigger hit than I expected. I thought the 2012-13 numbers would be the worst, but they turned out to be the best!

How about trading Girardi to the Devils for Fayne? Any takers?
wow. dont want to trade girardi for fayne but my god this is a good post. you clearly see mcd and staal look better without G but i didnt realize how much he weighed them down. i would rather trade him for a forward at the deadline. he will make stupid money as a ufa, like 6+ million.

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09-17-2013, 05:40 PM
  #598
Blue Blooded
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Interesting stuff. I don't put too much emphasis on Corsi ratings, but I'd be a hypocrite if I said they don't mean anything.

What I will say, as a former goalie, is the importance of blocked shots. Regardless of what corsi stats suggest, ask any goalie out there how they feel about their players blocking shots and you'll have a lopsided response.

And hitting is another stat that might not directly affect the scoreboard, but ask players of the game how a physical player impacts the game with a check. It can electrify the crowd, change morale, or most importantly, create a turnover.

When all is said and done, Girardi being a physical, shotblocking machine isn't a bad thing. I'll just disagree with Corsi ratings in general. Personally speaking, stats and hockey don't make as much sense as, stats and baseball.
I agree that being a good hitter or shot blocker is in itself not a negative thing. But placing at the top in the accumulated totals for a year suggests that as a defenceman you have spent the majority of your season running around in your own end.

In addition, while it may be influenced by Torts' (IMO) awful system, Girardi made the "Worst breakout defenceman"-list.

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09-17-2013, 05:42 PM
  #599
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So how well a defenceman prevents goals/shots/shot attempts against is totally meaningless?

I thought that was their primary task on the ice?

I mean pure points is usually a bad way to measure a defenceman's value, but that isn't at all what the above post is about.

It is about how the team performed with certain players on/off the ice.
You other post is too long to respond to, i will use this one.
Dman's primary task is to prevent goals/shots/shot attempts against as you say. But your lengthy post doesn't address any of that actually, you dismiss the part that focuses on those attributes.
Quote:
Why are you listing hits and blocks? Awful statistics to use when evaluating a player's value. Can be used to identify style of play, but being ranked high in hits and blocks (and takeaways) is actually a negative indicator of performance as you need the other team to have the puck to record such an event.
Blocks prevent goals from being scored, minimizes the shots and shot attempts. Dismissing that right off the bat is peculiar. And flies in the face of your own stated objective for a Dman above.
Girardi prevents goals from being scored, that's what a shutdown Dman is for. Girardi is not and will never be an elite offensive Dman. I already stipulated that in the previous post.


Your post goes to great length about possession numbers for a Dman, but they are really meaningless for a shutdown D.

The disturbing part is you cherry picked which stats to use that is convenient to your argument.

Quote:
So Girardi actually performed better in regard to +/- away from McDonagh. But due to the short season I would downplay goal based stats as the sample gets so small, and the Rangers were unlucky with percentages last season. If we downplay the -0.696 they had together, we also have to downplay Girardi's +0.753 away from McDonagh.
Girardi's possession numbers took a big hit away from McDonagh and the Rangers were instead spending more time in their own end with McDonagh-less Girardi.

So how did McDonagh do without Girardi?

McDonagh without Girardi:
GF60: 3.705, GA60: 1.287, GD60: +2.418
CF60: 62.34, CA60: 49.29, CD60: +13.05

Wow, those numbers are gaudier than I expected. The Rangers were crushing their opponents, both in regard to goals scored (less relevant) and in regard to possession.

Conclusion: Girardi had a pretty brutal 2012-13 campaign.

So the sample size is too small for the stat that favors Girardi but not for the stat that disfavors him as a shutdown D?
Conclusion: Girardi a brutal year.

Really?

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Old
09-17-2013, 05:49 PM
  #600
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Where have I seen this post before?!

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