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2013-2014 Training Camp/Preseason Discussion Thread Part 2

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Old
09-20-2013, 09:01 AM
  #876
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Anyone know a lot about Richard Clune from the Preds last year? LW with some speed and who brought good energy last year. Signed for this year and (2) more at a reasonable contract. Will drop the gloves and provide some energy.

I know he has good speed but I never really paid THAT much attention to him when I caught their games. Does he PK?

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09-20-2013, 09:03 AM
  #877
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Haven't seen anything yet to make me think Miller deserves or has earned a top six role. I don't think he's a lock to even make the team.
not only is he not a lock but thanks to his injury, i'd say at the moment he is behind lindberg, fast and kristo fighting to get the spots cally & hags leave open.

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09-20-2013, 09:10 AM
  #878
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So is everyone convinced that Richards is going to bounce back? I see a lot of Richards in the top 6. I completely lost confidence in the guy after last season and it's not like he'd young, maybe he's past his prime. Really wish our top 3 centers were Stepan, Brassard, and Lindberg.
well richards is going to be in the top 6 to start the year...basically by default. pouliot and brassard will be too cause we are missing an entire line...but him bouncing back and playing like a legit #1 center, i like the positive signs so far but i'm still not holding my breath...

but i think an equally dangerous assumption about our top 6 is that come nov 1st we'll have the really cally and hagelin back. we went thru shoulder surgeries with jagr and gaborik and those guys weren't back to normal until the following season, they came back but had nothing on their shots...hagelin & cally aren't the same type of players but still they aren't going to be 100% when they return...

we don't have enough offense WITH cally score 30 so what happens when he only scores 11 this year cause his shoulder isn't 100%...

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09-20-2013, 09:12 AM
  #879
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Miller definitely has ground to make up (especially vs Fast, not overly wowed by Kristo, don't see Lindberg as direct competition because if Miller sticks with the Rangers it won't be as a C) but there is no reason why he can't still do it.

I wouldn't predict it but he's gonna have a shot in at least 1-2 preseason games. Miller did very well in front of the net for team USA, maybe he impresses AV with that. Kid always goes hard to the net too which is something AV has stressed to date.

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09-20-2013, 09:13 AM
  #880
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I am hoping Richards plays the point on the PP. They don't need him to be the QB, just let him play there and shoot the puck. Put Moore on the opposite side to rip one-timers. Zuccarello better be on the top unit as well. He creates plays with his vision. Nash is an obvious choice. Who gets the other spot?

------
Nash Zuccarello
Moore Richards

Zuccarello plays the half boards, Nash in the high slot, who is in close to the net with Callahan out? Boyle? Kreider? Pouliot? Pyatt? Other?

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09-20-2013, 09:18 AM
  #881
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
I am hoping Richards plays the point on the PP. They don't need him to be the QB, just let him play there and shoot the puck. Put Moore on the opposite side to rip one-timers. Zuccarello better be on the top unit as well. He creates plays with his vision. Nash is an obvious choice. Who gets the other spot?

------
Nash Zuccarello
Moore Richards

Zuccarello plays the half boards, Nash in the high slot, who is in close to the net with Callahan out? Boyle? Kreider? Pouliot? Pyatt? Other?
Gotta be Kreider, particularly with the knowledge that they've been playing him in that position in camp. He's a big body with relatively soft hands. If he can handle the abuse, he's a good fit.

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09-20-2013, 09:22 AM
  #882
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Defensemen who can play the minutes Girardi plays are pretty rare these days. To play the minutes-to play physical and to make very few trips to the penalty box--to play with assorted hurts but miss very few games. To be always out on the ice against the best players in the league. That's dependability. Coaches love dependability. He is our best right side guy and good right side guys are harder to find than good left side guys. Girardi might not be quite on the level of McDonagh or Staal but he is still very very good.

As for the notion that he plays worse with Del Zotto--that's not just on Girardi--that's on Del Zotto too. The better defense partner you play with the better results you should have. McDonagh and Staal by the way both love playing with Dan.

Statistics don't always tell the whole story. Sometimes I think people already have their conclusions and just need to find and arrange the evidence in the best way that supports their argument.
I want to address your last point first, that definitely happens way too much and I think it is one of the primary reasons that many people are big sceptics of statistics.

I want to emphasize that while I do believe in statistics, I try my hardest to not work that way. I always try to provide the correct context and I would never consciously hide a statistic that disproved my point.

Regarding Girardi and his dependability, I think there is a lot of confirmation bias hiding his true value.

Yes, Girardi has seemingly handled first pairing minutes well. But a vast majority of these minutes were with McDonagh/Staal. When we look at them apart, as shown in the linked post, Staal/McDonagh improve while Girardi suffers. That is an odd outcome if Girardi is our best RHD, wouldn't the results on both sides of the equation suffer if Girardi was better than the other RHD's?

And I don't doubt that they enjoy playing with Dan, he always gives his all and is good at the obvious defensive plays, hits and blocks. He is likely our best RHD at preventing goals when the other team has the puck. But he is probably our worst RHD at preventing those types of situations. In the long run that is more detrimental than a defenceman that has some misplays but on the whole allows a lot fewer chances.

I'll post the famous Dave Tippett quote:
Quote:
"I'll give you an example. We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shutdown defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can't move the puck. Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn't defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he's making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he's only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."
I've always loved Girardi, there is definitely nothing personal here, he seems like a great guy and you have to love it when an undrafted player becomes an all-star. But the more I've looked in to him this summer, the more I see an average player pushed to stardom by his superior peers (McDoangh, Staal and maybe most of all Lundqvist).

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09-20-2013, 09:24 AM
  #883
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
In a sick, twisted way, the easiest thing to have happen would be for the '13-14 Rangers to fall on their collective faces -- making it plainly obvious that this core isn't the answer going forward.

Girardi and Callahan are very good players. But are they key core components of a championship? At a combined price of around $11-12M yearly? Im not so sure.
I would have a hard stomaching Girardi and Callahan making that much. Toews and Keith have a combined cap hit of almost $12M, and they are the foundation of two cup-winning teams. Girardi and Cally are nice players but they are not at that level.

We know Sather is tough on his RFAs and is willing to overpay UFAS, but we have yet to see how he will negotiate with homegrown players who are turning UFA. I think he will do whatever it takes to ensure that Lundqvist remains a Ranger, but I'm not sure about Callahan and Girardi.

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Old
09-20-2013, 09:25 AM
  #884
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Gotta be Kreider, particularly with the knowledge that they've been playing him in that position in camp. He's a big body with relatively soft hands. If he can handle the abuse, he's a good fit.
Kreider will get a shot if he can stick in the lineup.

Otherwise I think Pouliot would do really well in that role, he scores a ton of goals 5v5 and says himself that he scores almost all of them around the net.

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Old
09-20-2013, 09:27 AM
  #885
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With the cap rising could we afford to give them more $ with less years?

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09-20-2013, 09:28 AM
  #886
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I said I DON'T want to play Bickel for his toughness because he is awful.

Asham goes the same speed as Rupp, and Rupp was too slow last year.
That second part is just not true at all.

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09-20-2013, 09:42 AM
  #887
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Blue Blooded- From an on ice perspective, I would love to deal Girardi. I think his value vastly exceeds ability.

But, I think he is an extremely important part of the lockerroom. Great character guy. Unless he breaks the bank, I think its worth keeping him around.

On Tippets quote, anyone know who he might be talking about? Derian Hatcher? JOvo?

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09-20-2013, 09:58 AM
  #888
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Blue Blooded- From an on ice perspective, I would love to deal Girardi. I think his value vastly exceeds ability.

But, I think he is an extremely important part of the lockerroom. Great character guy. Unless he breaks the bank, I think its worth keeping him around.

On Tippets quote, anyone know who he might be talking about? Derian Hatcher? JOvo?
Apparently he was talking about when he was coaching junior (the quote itself is more recent than that) and he didn't want to name the players.

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09-20-2013, 10:02 AM
  #889
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The next contract will be Girardi's 4th contract. The 2nd and 3rd were signed without any incidents. The 2 year bridge contract and the current 4 year deal which includes 3 group III years. The cap is going up but does it make sense for the Rangers to retain all of their current D. The cap is going up but you don't want that many long-term contracts on the books. AV really likes Moore. He discussed Moore's skating ability last week. He will be a group II next summer and how much he gets will be determined by him. You can see him having a very good season and getting at least $2M-$2.5M per for 2 years.

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09-20-2013, 10:04 AM
  #890
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The next contract will be Girardi's 4th contract. The 2nd and 3rd were signed without any incidents. The 2 year bridge contract and the current 4 year deal which includes 3 group III years. The cap is going up but does it make sense for the Rangers to retain all of their current D. The cap is going up but you don't want that many long-term contracts on the books. AV really likes Moore. He discussed Moore's skating ability last week. He will be a group II next summer and how much he gets will be determined by him. You can see him having a very good season and getting at least $2M-$2.5M per for 2 years.
I think in an ideal world, they re-sign Girardi, Staal and Moore and then can trade MDZ. That solidifies the top-4 moving forward and allows some stop-gaps or young players to play on the bottom pairing. Maybe McIlrath or Allen or Skjei or whoever.

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09-20-2013, 10:18 AM
  #891
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Girardi is overrated IMO, great in a Torts system, often overplayed. I think this year may be one of his worst years. Just my predictions.

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09-20-2013, 10:20 AM
  #892
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I would trade him for a top 6 winger before he wants 5+ mil

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09-20-2013, 10:22 AM
  #893
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Gotta be Kreider, particularly with the knowledge that they've been playing him in that position in camp. He's a big body with relatively soft hands. If he can handle the abuse, he's a good fit.
What? 3 wingers on PP? All will lose a FO, just to start.

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09-20-2013, 10:24 AM
  #894
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I would trade him for a top 6 winger before he wants 5+ mil
Yup. Montreal needs defence, they make a good trading partner. Girardi only has 1 year left, no way we get Pacioretty. Go for Gallagher, he had an insane season last year which was only slightly buoyed by high percentages.

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09-20-2013, 10:32 AM
  #895
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
I think in an ideal world, they re-sign Girardi, Staal and Moore and then can trade MDZ. That solidifies the top-4 moving forward and allows some stop-gaps or young players to play on the bottom pairing. Maybe McIlrath or Allen or Skjei or whoever.
In my ideal world they already traded Del Zotto for a top 6 LW, unfortunately I don't think he returns any top 6 LW of significance.

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09-20-2013, 10:59 AM
  #896
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
I am hoping Richards plays the point on the PP. They don't need him to be the QB, just let him play there and shoot the puck. Put Moore on the opposite side to rip one-timers. Zuccarello better be on the top unit as well. He creates plays with his vision. Nash is an obvious choice. Who gets the other spot?

------
Nash Zuccarello
Moore Richards

Zuccarello plays the half boards, Nash in the high slot, who is in close to the net with Callahan out? Boyle? Kreider? Pouliot? Pyatt? Other?
Brassard absolutely has to be on the 1st PP unit. He's by far the most consistently creative Rangers forward, especially on the PP. I like Zucc, but I use Brassard ahead of him if the two don't fit well on same unit.

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09-20-2013, 11:09 AM
  #897
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AV hasn't even tried a forward on the point in practice yet according to Cerny. Did VAN have any forwards on the point? Can't recall.

Anyway, they plan on Nash being around the net on the PP this year. So Kreider would have to be 2nd unit and I agree with Brass on 1st, Zucc on 2nd.

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09-20-2013, 11:12 AM
  #898
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Brassard absolutely has to be on the 1st PP unit. He's by far the most consistently creative Rangers forward, especially on the PP. I like Zucc, but I use Brassard ahead of him if the two don't fit well on same unit.
Too many lefties on that unit as well. You need at least one out of the four "outfield" players to be a righty.
------Callahan

Stepan---------Nash

Strålman---Richards

2nd unit

-----Pouliot/Kreider

Fast/Kristo?-------Zuccarello

Del Zotto--Brassard

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09-20-2013, 11:17 AM
  #899
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Girardi is overrated IMO, great in a Torts system, often overplayed. I think this year may be one of his worst years. Just my predictions.
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I would trade him for a top 6 winger before he wants 5+ mil
Girardi played just as fine under Renney.

And moving/not re-signing Girardi means Stralman is our #1RHD. Additionally, Stralman is also up for a contract soon which means Girardi's value here isn't diminishing any time soon.

Top-6 winger? Terrible idea.

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09-20-2013, 11:25 AM
  #900
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Originally Posted by Esa 10 View Post
Brassard absolutely has to be on the 1st PP unit. He's by far the most consistently creative Rangers forward, especially on the PP. I like Zucc, but I use Brassard ahead of him if the two don't fit well on same unit.
The way things are looking from pre-season, having Brass and Zucc on 1st and 2nd unit might result in the rangers actually having 2 scoring PP units this season. Assuming that the other members of the respective unit can hit something else than the glove.

Its a bit of a luxury "problem", which is nice

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