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Derek Stepan Negotiations (9/19-Dreger: "Unlikely" Stepan signs before season opens)

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Old
09-19-2013, 04:42 PM
  #726
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I wish Hank last longer that Marty, but the odds are against it.
Henrik is 31. If he signs a 6 year deal you don't believe he could play competitively until then? No one said anything about playing to Martys age.

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09-19-2013, 04:44 PM
  #727
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RNH signed a $6M/7Year contract. Won't help Step feel valued
Talk about a drastic overpayment for a kid with injury issues.

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09-19-2013, 04:45 PM
  #728
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True, but he will get an offer sheet by then. If signed, those .465 million yiou are talking about will be a litte fraction of what he gets. Teams like ANA or VAN have low 1st round draw in relatively average draft next year. You never know... Burke got Kessel, while BOS ended with Ericsson (sp.).
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There is West. VAN has room, Torts and GM that have done worse than that.
How do you know this? Why can you just go and make assumptions to prove your point? Why hasn't he signed on yet? WHy would a team wait to make him an offer when they could get him for the whole season rather than a fraction of it?

Van has room, torts wants him, they've been allowed to make an offer sheet for months now, why hasn't it been made?

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Btw. Who is that in your avatar?

Pablo Di Canio, coach of Sunderland in the EPL (soccer). I'm an unfortunate fan of their team, but he is a sick coach. Insanely passionate and was an awesome player back in the day.

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09-19-2013, 04:46 PM
  #729
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
How do you know this? Why can you just go and make assumptions to prove your point? Why hasn't he signed on yet? WHy would a team wait to make him an offer when they could get him for the whole season rather than a fraction of it?

Van has room, torts wants him, they've been allowed to make an offer sheet for months now, why hasn't it been made?




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Looked like Arthur Blank lol. That's why I asked.

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09-19-2013, 04:49 PM
  #730
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Vancouver is not going to sign him

They have 16 millions tied into the twins starting next season.

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09-19-2013, 04:50 PM
  #731
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It's just sensibility y'all. No need to involve life threatening injuries and career ending paralysis. No one lives their lives with those thoughts in mind. You fight for what you should fight for. The question for Mr.Stepan is whether or not he should still be fighting for it at this juncture where the team and himself is going to suffer the consequence of his absence. If Glen is being unfair with his offers, perhaps that would justify a bit more fight in Mr.Stepan but seeing as Glen is being fairly reasonable, where is the line?

Where's the line, Jan?

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09-19-2013, 04:59 PM
  #732
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Originally Posted by JCrusty View Post
It's just sensibility y'all. No need to involve life threatening injuries and career ending paralysis. No one lives their lives with those thoughts in mind. You fight for what you should fight for. The question for Mr.Stepan is whether or not he should still be fighting for it at this juncture where the team and himself is going to suffer the consequence of his absence. If Glen is being unfair with his offers, perhaps that would justify a bit more fight in Mr.Stepan but seeing as Glen is being fairly reasonable, where is the line?

Where's the line, Jan?
The line is the regular season. Thats when games count and players get paid. Every second after that point, Stepan is losing paychecks and losing value for his next deal.

The other stuff, like being in camp and learning the system under a new coach is just fodder. He'd be just as likely to start the season on fire without camp, than getting off to a slow start if hes in camp. Its an unknown.

At this point, we should just hope hes dressed on October 3rd in Phoenix. Thats the line.

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09-19-2013, 05:01 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
they've been allowed to make an offer sheet for months now, why hasn't it been made?
I know nothing. I am just educated or I think I am. Thus, I, like you say, assume. Or make an educated guess. One of my assumption is that there are unwritten rules between GMs. It's like military in a war do not use chemical weapons simply because they do not want to get poisoned by enemy in return. They have it, but do not use it. Similarly, no GM will interfere with RFA impass. Only when it got out of normal business and sides burned the bridges or get really close to doing it, then RFA may get an offer sheet. If you have done it sooner, expect OS to show up when you talk to your RFA. Sather has never done anything that was out of this unwritten code of conduct. NHL GMs respect him for that, although many can't stand the man.

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09-19-2013, 05:08 PM
  #734
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I know nothing. I am just educated or I think I am. Thus, I, like you say, assume. Or make an educated guess. One of my assumption is that there are unwritten rules between GMs. It's like military in a war do not use chemical weapons simply because they do not want to get poisoned by enemy in return. They have it, but do not use it. Similarly, no GM will interfere with RFA impass. Only when it got out of normal business and sides burned the bridges or get really close to doing it, then RFA may get an offer sheet. If you have done it sooner, expect OS to show up when you talk to your RFA. Sather has never done anything that was out of this unwritten code of conduct. NHL GMs respect him for that, although many can't stand the man.
You know this how?

This is worse than the assumptions you make with the compoundnig, while not taking into consideration, taxes, salary forfeited for "striking" etc.

Your arguments are so off-base.

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09-19-2013, 05:10 PM
  #735
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I don't think any would come up with OS, but teams scan the sitiations with every RFA. Why would he want to stay in NY? This is the team that has potential NOW. But in a few years it would be due for rebuild. Like it or not, the window is closing. It may get bad much sooner. If Hank is not signed by Jan, McD could be more of the loser than Step with his bridge.
What? Window isn't closing. Team is young and the cap will be going up. Hank will re-sign for another half dozen years and Richards will be off the team next summer. The window is just opening.

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09-19-2013, 05:19 PM
  #736
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I feel like Glen just needs to go out for lunch with Step and give him a hug and tell him that this organization loves him, just not with money.

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09-19-2013, 05:37 PM
  #737
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What? Window isn't closing. Team is young and the cap will be going up. Hank will re-sign for another half dozen years and Richards will be off the team next summer. The window is just opening.
75% of the team are free agents after this season.

Sather took a team that finished 1st in the east, and completely revamped the forward lineup - twice.

The notion of having a window to compete assumes that the roster will stay relatively consistent. When has that happened under Sather?

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09-19-2013, 06:06 PM
  #738
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Windows closed. Shows over.

Meaningless season s from now until full rebuild

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09-19-2013, 06:23 PM
  #739
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
How do you know this? Why can you just go and make assumptions to prove your point? Why hasn't he signed on yet? WHy would a team wait to make him an offer when they could get him for the whole season rather than a fraction of it?

Van has room, torts wants him, they've been allowed to make an offer sheet for months now, why hasn't it been made?




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I hope Jozy starts scoring, they need goals!!!

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09-19-2013, 06:29 PM
  #740
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What? Window isn't closing. Team is young and the cap will be going up. Hank will re-sign for another half dozen years and Richards will be off the team next summer. The window is just opening.
Agree. Window starts this year, witb the salaries shed next year, young Fs in the pipeline, establidhed vets at mostly reasonable prices, solid D corp, stud G for the foreseeable future, cap going up. Figure window is really Hanks longevity, and see what happens with Cally, Dan G, and Staal - 4 years? We have a youngish core esp. when Step resigns.

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09-19-2013, 06:59 PM
  #741
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
75% of the team are free agents after this season.

Sather took a team that finished 1st in the east, and completely revamped the forward lineup - twice.

The notion of having a window to compete assumes that the roster will stay relatively consistent. When has that happened under Sather?
So what should they have done? Stayed put with a team that got hammered by the Devils in the ECF? The only reason they even got there was because Kreider came out of nowhere to help their scoring woes.

You always try to improve, each season. The trade for Nash, left us with little depth and a lot of high end talent. If your bottom lines can't ever put pucks in the net, you're not going to be good. So he moved Gaborik, an upcoming unnafordable contract, for 3 fantastic depth players.

The team, as constructed this year, is the deepest we've had, yes, even better than that one that came in 1st.

Do i think they'll win the East this year, probably not, but do i think there shot of being a competative, cup worthy team has improved, yes.

Not only that, but an aging Gaborik, who was also injury prone, was replaced with Nash and 3 very YOUNG guys.

Brassard, Stepan down the middle is fantastic. The oldest guy on D is girardi at what, 29?

Moore, MDZ and McDonagh are still yet to hit their prime years.

This team is built to be competative for a long time. Maybe some posters are younger on here and don't remember the black ages, but this is an exciting time for Rangers fans.

Not only are we currently competative, but with the plethora of young guys on the roster and on the cusp of the NHL, it seems it will stay that way for at least the near and into the further future.

There will be bumps along the road, ala last season (god forbid a second round exit is the worst we could do), but you can't look at the team and the system and not set your expecations high.

Try being a fan when all we did was sign geezers like Fleury, Lindros who was on his 10th concussion, overpaying for **** like Holik, it was embarassing, detrimental and painful to sit through. This is new and it's good and the Rangers are being smart about the way they handle all of these young players.

Stepan is the first guy to ever pull this stuff on the team and I don't see why the precedent should be changed for someone who frankly hasn't proven they can sustain a high level of play over the course of a full season.

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09-19-2013, 07:17 PM
  #742
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Stepan should have been first priority and then everything else falls wherever it falls. Instead Sather put Stepan aside for last and this is what he gets.

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09-19-2013, 07:25 PM
  #743
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All it might be is one party not wanting to budge. Or it could be both.

Maybe it's Stepan's group thinking that he's given them three good years of low cost hockey and seeing comparable and sometimes even lesser players scoring bigger contracts. Considering what others are making he's not being unreasonable.

Or it even could be Sather seeing his team pretty much tapped out of cap dollars trying to hold the line and lowball the player.

My problem with Sather's position is he's got a bunch of guys who have turned into bad contracts. He also should have bought Richards out.

Personally this business about losing $ by holding out or missing camp and even worse missing camp with a new coaching regime and system is a little overrated by people. Pouliot in his interview the other day basically said that this new system of AV's is for the most part pretty much standard stuff. There's really not all that much difference in how most teams go about preparing for a game--one coach wants a bit more of this and another a bit more of that. The sky is not going to fall for Stepan just because he's missing training camp. He's one of our more cerebral players on the ice as it is at both ends of the ice.

A potential silver lining of his holding out will be to give someone else a chance--say Oscar Lindberg or even JT Miller and if that player runs with the opportunity--then we'll be even deeper for it when Stepan comes back--might give management more confidence to do a 2 for 1 deal to try a fix a problem area or bring in a really good player and/or it might give them more faith that losing a Pyatt, Powe or Asham is not going to leave us short.

In any case players know that they may someday be in the same position as Stepan--holding out for what they believe is right. His taking less than fair value is not something that is going to help them in the future when they might be in the same predicament.

How fans are going to feel is different. They want their team to win. That's their bottom line and when the player holds out they don't tend to be angry with his bosses they tend to get angry with the player. C'est la vie. 'He's putting himself before the team' they say and/or think--the team that includes not just the staff and players but the fans themselves. But a fan to me is a pawn in this game. He does not always have a need to know what is what. Whatever he gets from the team itself is carefully disseminated--what he gets from media sources less so but it's all coordinated in any case. A fan can cheer or boo--that's pretty much his entire input into how his team is going to go about its business. He has no real say in the decision making process.

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09-19-2013, 07:28 PM
  #744
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Stepan should have been first priority and then everything else falls wherever it falls. Instead Sather put Stepan aside for last and this is what he gets.
A nice story, if that was the way it actually happened. It's a logical fallacy to believe that because other players signed first that Sather made Stepan wait until last.

The truth is Stepan's camp had no reason to sign early, and neither side had any pressure to get a deal done until now. Sather had a max number in mind and he left himself enough money and flexibility to reach that number. Stepan wants 3.5 mil? We can afford 3.5 mil. So tell where where Sather made the mistake.

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09-19-2013, 07:45 PM
  #745
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oh geez, well time for the Richards, Stepan, Boyle for Sedins talk to start

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09-19-2013, 07:50 PM
  #746
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Stepan should have been first priority and then everything else falls wherever it falls. Instead Sather put Stepan aside for last and this is what he gets.
What?

This is literally the kind of ideal that bothers me more than anything.

We should have signed him first? For what reason?

Him not being signed doesn't have to do with the fact that we don't have the cap space, it has to do with the fact that he hasn't earned what other comparables have gotten.

Duchene got 3.5 for his bridge, after performing better, over full seasons and with a LARGER CAP in place at the time.

Stepan hasn't been as good as Duchene was, didn't show he can sustain a high level of play over a full season and is under a much lower cap.

This is about principal. Something Stepan, at his young age, clearly needs to learn about.

You don't get raises just becasuse, you get them for performing. And in the real world, no ones going to pay someone more than his comparables just because he's being a baby.

Sack up, prove you can play over the course of the next 2 seasons at the level you did the past 41 games and then get rewarded with a nice fat, long term contract.

Or sit at home, wait for an offer sheet that may never come, get out of shape and be rewarded with nothing, while looking like an idiot.

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09-19-2013, 08:00 PM
  #747
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i get the feeling Stepan's camp would take $3.25M but they are looking for Sather's camp to make that offer afraid Stepan's camp would counter for $3.325M or something whereas Stepan's camp is afraid if they made that offer Sather would counter with $3.125M or something.

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09-19-2013, 08:42 PM
  #748
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What?

This is literally the kind of ideal that bothers me more than anything.

We should have signed him first? For what reason?

Him not being signed doesn't have to do with the fact that we don't have the cap space, it has to do with the fact that he hasn't earned what other comparables have gotten.

Duchene got 3.5 for his bridge, after performing better, over full seasons and with a LARGER CAP in place at the time.

Stepan hasn't been as good as Duchene was, didn't show he can sustain a high level of play over a full season and is under a much lower cap.

This is about principal. Something Stepan, at his young age, clearly needs to learn about.

You don't get raises just becasuse, you get them for performing. And in the real world, no ones going to pay someone more than his comparables just because he's being a baby.

Sack up, prove you can play over the course of the next 2 seasons at the level you did the past 41 games and then get rewarded with a nice fat, long term contract.

Or sit at home, wait for an offer sheet that may never come, get out of shape and be rewarded with nothing, while looking like an idiot.
Your post is well stated and definitely rings true as it relates to Stepan.

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09-19-2013, 09:05 PM
  #749
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What?

This is literally the kind of ideal that bothers me more than anything.

We should have signed him first? For what reason?

Him not being signed doesn't have to do with the fact that we don't have the cap space, it has to do with the fact that he hasn't earned what other comparables have gotten.

Duchene got 3.5 for his bridge, after performing better, over full seasons and with a LARGER CAP in place at the time.

Stepan hasn't been as good as Duchene was, didn't show he can sustain a high level of play over a full season and is under a much lower cap.

This is about principal. Something Stepan, at his young age, clearly needs to learn about.

You don't get raises just becasuse, you get them for performing. And in the real world, no ones going to pay someone more than his comparables just because he's being a baby.

Sack up, prove you can play over the course of the next 2 seasons at the level you did the past 41 games and then get rewarded with a nice fat, long term contract.

Or sit at home, wait for an offer sheet that may never come, get out of shape and be rewarded with nothing, while looking like an idiot.
I'm not sure Stepan deserves 3.5 either, but it's hard to believe it's about principal when Richards avoids a buyout coming off the worst season of his career.

It's either about the cap, or it's Sather bing his pig-headed self. Now assuming it's the latter, here we have Sather playing hardball with a player we're simply not going to compete without. This isn't Dubinsky or Staal, this is the impetus of our offense.

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09-19-2013, 09:20 PM
  #750
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
I'm not sure Stepan deserves 3.5 either, but it's hard to believe it's about principal when Richards avoids a buyout coming off the worst season of his career.

It's either about the cap, or it's Sather bing his pig-headed self. Now assuming it's the latter, here we have Sather playing hardball with a player we're simply not going to compete without. This isn't Dubinsky or Staal, this is the impetus of our offense.
Or, maybe they thought, hey our chances of winning the cup with Brassard, Stepan, Richards down the middle is A LOT better than our chances of winning with Brassard, Stepan, BOYLE!

I mean, talk about logic.

Sure the guy had a garbage year last year, but lets look at a couple facts.

1) It was not a regular season. There were games played every other day, with next to no training camp.

2) Richards was heavily involved in the CBA negotiations and was reportedly dealing with them nearly every single day up until the resolution. (I'm not making an excuse for him.)

3) Barring injury, the Rangers can still buy him out after this season.

4) In a horrid season, Brad Richards still put up 34 points in 46 games. A 60 point pace in, what we can all agree on, was a terrible season for him.

5) Dominic Moore's highest point total was 45, over a full season, of which, he is 5 seasons removed from.

6) Wait for it, Brian Boyles highest point total is.....35. One more point than a horrid Brad Richards had, in half a season.

7) it is possible, for a player, to work hard over and off-season and have a bounce back year.

Like it or not, our best chances to win the cup, are with Brad Richards on this team.

Brad Richards, when signed, was the #1 player on the market. That was his value. Stepan has nothing to do with that. There is no principal involved here. You sign players to win, you sign them to contracts that are market competative (Richards actually had higher offers outt here).

And when they underperform, you don't just cut them blind if you don't think it is for the best of the team.

Keeping richards, while maybe not the best move for the future, is the right move for this season. They are taking a gamble, but one that could mightily pay off if the dominos fall properly this season.

You're not going to win a cup with Moore or Boyle as your 3C. With Richards or Brassard there, it's possible.

For the first time in god knows how long, the Rangesr have SERIOUS depth down the middle, yet people will still find a reason to complain about it.

Principal can be subjective, but in this case it's not. The Rangers kept Richards to go for it all this season, not based on Principal. They are not signing Stepan to an inflated contract because it sets a standard for all of our other up and coming youngsters.

Signing Stepan now to a fat contract, could cause repurcussions that DESTROY this team down the line if our young prospects develop into good to above average players.

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