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Derek Stepan Negotiations (9/19-Dreger: "Unlikely" Stepan signs before season opens)

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09-20-2013, 01:45 PM
  #826
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
That isn't what I was intending with my post. What I meant more was that if Stepan proves to be a legit number one center, meaning consistently around the 80 point mark, then I would rather have him on a 2 year bridge now so we could sign him longterm later and keep him until he's 32, as opposed to signing him longterm now and only getting to keep him until he's 30.

In other words, the benefit of the bridge deal is about keeping the player as long as possible, all money aside.
It's not just you.

Like I said, there have been quite a few were talking like he's looking for this deal based on one half a season and that couldn't be further from the truth.

It makes sense from the Rangers POV to get Stepan to sign at 2.9 per for 2 years.

I don't begrudge them trying to keep the $$ down so that when they DO give him the 8 year deal at 6per, they can then look at these 2 years on the cheap and say we got Stepan for 10 years at basically an AAV of 5.4 per year.

If he averages 50-60 points a year for the next 10 years, he will be more than worth 5.4 per year.

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09-20-2013, 01:52 PM
  #827
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Brad Richards has nothing to do with Stepan's contract negotiation. There is a dollar value management has placed on Stepan and they don't want to exceed it. If BR had been bought out, it's not as if Slats would walk into the room with a blank check and ask Stepan to fill in the blanks.

Stepan will be back and will be fine...holdouts are just an annoyance of modern day sport.

As for Lindberg, thinking he can step into the NHL as a#1 center and replace the guy who might be the best player on the team, is borderline delusional.
Like it or not the money would be there if Richards had been bought out. And I think most of the even anti-Stepan people here would agree that the $3.5 mil per Stepan is asking for is not unreasonable considering he's more than less become our best center--is very good defensively and plays in all situations.

As for the so-called $ value that the Rangers do not want to exceed--how would you know that the lack of cap space has no bearing on what the Rangers offer is? I don't think you're doing anything more than speculating like the rest of us here.

As for Lindberg--no one is expecting him to march right in and take the No. 1 center spot. In the absence of Stepan for a long term I expect that before too long it will be Brassard because I don't believe Richards is good enough anymore. Lindberg has NHL skills and IMO could certainly slot into the No. 3 spot and produce some offense. He compares skill wise to Stepan in his rookie season though Oscar is a better skater, better defensively than Stepan was as a rookie and a better face-guy. If Oscar can produce at a reasonable level he becomes another all situation player which neither Richards or Brassard are--for instance neither are great defensively--neither kill penalties.

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09-20-2013, 01:53 PM
  #828
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The caliber of player has zero to do with this. Last years Norris Trophy winner missed the first part of the year on the same kind of issue.
Right, now if Subban plays well again how much is he going to resign for? Does that help Montreal or should they have signed him long term last year?

Also right, the CBA is flawed in this area, Subban is way underpaid and it caused him to holdout for a while. Not really in the best interest for anyone involved except the team trying to underpay for players who happen to fall into this category, and even them, on the back end it does not make any sense unless the player fails.

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09-20-2013, 01:54 PM
  #829
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
Richards numbers weren't that bad. We know he didn't play well. But the fact that the clown coach put him on the 4th line means nothing especially since that decision maker is gone. Bounce back year for Richie.
Pretty much. I don't know if he can bounce back, but it's defintiely worth a look see there's not much to lose here. The injury-phobia hype is out of control

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09-20-2013, 01:57 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by Clowe Knows Best View Post
I beg to differ, Richards was **** last year. 60 point pace blah blah blah. He was relegated to the 4th line and then benched for Kris ****ing Newbury, Kris ****ing Newbury. He scored a bunch of those points at the end of the season against teams out of it. And if anyone's going to use the "it's the coach's fault" argument I'm going to use the same excuse with the Kreider debate from last season when everyone got on Torts: he didn't earn it.
A pathetic move made by a coach who lost his mind in trying to save his job.

And if memory serves me right, were the Rangers not in a playoff race towards the end of the year......so that would be a good thing.

Pit - 5 Points in 5 games
Bos - 2 Points in 3 games
Wsh - 3 points in 3 games
Tor - 2 points in 3 games
Ott - 1 point in 3 games
NYI - 2 points in 3 games

So nearly half his points against playoff caliber teams.....seems pretty consistent to me.

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09-20-2013, 01:57 PM
  #831
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An organization policy that has a player of Stepan's caliber holding out to start a season should probably be changed. There are two non arbitration eligible RFA left, Stepan and Franson. The leafs literally do not have the cap space, the Rangers do. Every other team in the league with players in that situation were able to get it done even if they paid a bit more than they wanted.
I'm a little torn on this as well.

On the one hand, I 100% understand WHY the Rangers are doing what they are doing.

On the other hand I don't know why they play hard ball with their home grown talent while tripping over themselves as they run to the bank to overpay guys like Kaspar, Holik, Redden, Drury, Gomez, Boogaard, Brashear etc etc.

The guys that have contributed as much to winning over the last 7+ years have all been squeezed and while I get that they CAN do that because the CBA allows them to do it. I don't know that I would be so difficult with the homegrown talent.

I guess that I am looking at this like this:

Just because you CAN, doesn't mean that you SHOULD.

Just want the kid to be paid a fair salary for what he's done and will do.

And I want him in camp ASAP.

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09-20-2013, 01:58 PM
  #832
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I'm a little torn on this as well.

On the one hand, I 100% understand WHY the Rangers are doing what they are doing.

On the other hand I don't know why they play hard ball with their home grown talent while tripping over themselves as they run to the bank to overpay guys like Kaspar, Holik, Redden, Drury, Gomez, Boogaard, Brashear etc etc.

The guys that have contributed as much to winning over the last 7+ years have all been squeezed and while I get that they CAN do that because the CBA allows them to do it. I don't know that I would be so difficult with the homegrown talent.

I guess that I am looking at this like this:

Just because you CAN, doesn't mean that you SHOULD.

Just want the kid to be paid a fair salary for what he's done and will do.

And I want him in camp ASAP.
So because they've made mistakes in the future they shoud hand out another mistake.

The guys you listed are exactly the reason they should continue to do this hardball act.

Don't ever overpay guys, especialy ones you have complete control over.

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09-20-2013, 02:01 PM
  #833
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I'm a little torn on this as well.

On the one hand, I 100% understand WHY the Rangers are doing what they are doing.

On the other hand I don't know why they play hard ball with their home grown talent while tripping over themselves as they run to the bank to overpay guys like Kaspar, Holik, Redden, Drury, Gomez, Boogaard, Brashear etc etc.

The guys that have contributed as much to winning over the last 7+ years have all been squeezed and while I get that they CAN do that because the CBA allows them to do it. I don't know that I would be so difficult with the homegrown talent.

I guess that I am looking at this like this:

Just because you CAN, doesn't mean that you SHOULD.

Just want the kid to be paid a fair salary for what he's done and will do.

And I want him in camp ASAP.
I agree there need to be 2nd contracts in the NHL, but it should be done differently. Instead of basing arbitration rights on the age the player signed the contracts base it on number of NHL games played or something that makes more sense. Give the players who have the experience to get more the leverage to get more, take some leverage away from the Kadri, Hagelin players who have not put in as many NHL years or games.

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09-20-2013, 02:02 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
Right, now if Subban plays well again how much is he going to resign for? Does that help Montreal or should they have signed him long term last year?

Also right, the CBA is flawed in this area, Subban is way underpaid and it caused him to holdout for a while. Not really in the best interest for anyone involved except the team trying to underpay for players who happen to fall into this category, and even them, on the back end it does not make any sense unless the player fails.
I had this conversation with someone else.

If you told Montreal that they could get PK inked for 2.85 per, that he would win a Norris during that first year, but would then have to pay him MORE on his next contract (say 6.25 per to 7.25 per) The Canadiens would be all over that like white on snow.

10 years at 6.37 million AAV
8 years at 6.25 million AAV

I would take the first sceanrio each time.

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09-20-2013, 02:16 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
So because they've made mistakes in the future they shoud hand out another mistake.

The guys you listed are exactly the reason they should continue to do this hardball act.

Don't ever overpay guys, especialy ones you have complete control over.
First there's a world of difference between the dumb crap they pay out to the players I named and the amount Stepan is looking for compared to what he is being offered.

Whiel I have stated that 250k is alot of money and I maintain that it is, it's a drop in the bucket compared to some of the contracts thay have given out.

Each team has mistakes. The Rangers make MISTAKES.

Giving Stepan 3.5 while a slight mistake, is not even remotely close to giving Holik 9 per. or Redden 6.5 per.

If they didn't pull crap like that, they could live with giving the home grown core decent contracts that may be a little more than they could get away with.

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09-20-2013, 02:17 PM
  #836
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
Right, now if Subban plays well again how much is he going to resign for? Does that help Montreal or should they have signed him long term last year?

Also right, the CBA is flawed in this area, Subban is way underpaid and it caused him to holdout for a while. Not really in the best interest for anyone involved except the team trying to underpay for players who happen to fall into this category, and even them, on the back end it does not make any sense unless the player fails.
No, the flaw to me is with the GMs who think its a good idea to pay a guy based on his potential, rather than his body of work. That's what I meant by caliber having nothing to do with it. Subban had the potential to win the Norris from the start but hadn't proven that he could. So he gets a bridge deal. Stepan has the potential to be a bonafide 1st like center, but hasn't yet proven that he is. So he gets a bridge deal. The concept is pretty sound.

The idea if giving RNH a long term lucrative contract after two essentially 50 point seasons is ridiculous to me.


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09-20-2013, 02:21 PM
  #837
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WTF RNH 42 mil over 7 years unbeleavable!!! I'm just speechless. How can you tell Stepan now here you go 3 mil per when some kid who hasnt done crap in the league except for some flashes of potential gets 6 freaking mil. Some teams just dont get it that is why they are stuck in reverse all the time. The kid has 76 points in the nhl over past 2 years this is so Islanders like.

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09-20-2013, 02:22 PM
  #838
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The kid has 76 points in the nhl over past 2 years this is so Islanders like.
so what. restricted. end of story.

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09-20-2013, 02:26 PM
  #839
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No, the flaw to me is with the GMs who think its a good idea to pay a guy based on his potential, rather than his body of work. That's what I meant by caliber having nothing to do with it. Subban had the potential to win the Norris from the start but hadn't proven that he could. So he gets a bridge deal. Stepan has the potential to be a bonafide 1st like center, but hasn't yet proven that he is. So he gets a bridge deal. The concept is pretty sound.
Concept is so sound both players held out.

The flaw is with the CBA, it does not make any sense.

If you can give me any reason why Stepan is non arbitration eligible but Hagelin is, besides age at contract signing it may sway my opinion.

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09-20-2013, 02:27 PM
  #840
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WTF RNH 42 mil over 7 years unbeleavable!!! I'm just speechless. How can you tell Stepan now here you go 3 mil per when some kid who hasnt done crap in the league except for some flashes of potential gets 6 freaking mil. Some teams just dont get it that is why they are stuck in reverse all the time. The kid has 76 points in the nhl over past 2 years this is so Islanders like.
They set the precedent by giving Hall and Eberle basically identical contracts.

Now they have to pay RNH and Yakupov the same.

I'm not sold on RNH yet, he has struggled too much 5v5 so far in his career.

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09-20-2013, 02:29 PM
  #841
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First there's a world of difference between the dumb crap they pay out to the players I named and the amount Stepan is looking for compared to what he is being offered.

Whiel I have stated that 250k is alot of money and I maintain that it is, it's a drop in the bucket compared to some of the contracts thay have given out.

Each team has mistakes. The Rangers make MISTAKES.

Giving Stepan 3.5 while a slight mistake, is not even remotely close to giving Holik 9 per. or Redden 6.5 per.

If they didn't pull crap like that, they could live with giving the home grown core decent contracts that may be a little more than they could get away with.
No player should ever be paid more than they are worth.

Past mistakes don't justify making even minor mistakes in the present.

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09-20-2013, 02:30 PM
  #842
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Concept is so sound both players held out.

The flaw is with the CBA, it does not make any sense.

If you can give me any reason why Stepan is non arbitration eligible but Hagelin is, besides age at contract signing it may sway my opinion.
It IS about age. Hagelin is much more likely to already be the player he's going to be at 25 than Stepan is at 23. Because Carl is already there, there's more likely to be a dispute between the players value of himself and the leverage the team has over him. So you bring in an arbitrator.

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09-20-2013, 02:32 PM
  #843
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Stepan missing a month of the season over a 500k difference that doesn't give this team a cap issue would be a larger mistake.

We've seen RB's math. NYR can fit this season with 3.5, and the cap should rise substantially each season. NYR should have enough space this offseason to re-sign every single member of this team. Maybe not with Richards but certainly without. So what is the holdup? Does Sather not think this core of players is good enough?

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09-20-2013, 02:35 PM
  #844
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
No player should ever be paid more than they are worth.

Past mistakes don't justify making even minor mistakes in the present.
And yet the Rangers year in and year out make those same mistakes on players that have no organizational ties.

if they are going to make mistakes, and THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE THEM, then they should be on their home grown kids and not the mercs coming in because of the bloated contract.

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09-20-2013, 02:35 PM
  #845
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
First there's a world of difference between the dumb crap they pay out to the players I named and the amount Stepan is looking for compared to what he is being offered.

Whiel I have stated that 250k is alot of money and I maintain that it is, it's a drop in the bucket compared to some of the contracts thay have given out.

Each team has mistakes. The Rangers make MISTAKES.

Giving Stepan 3.5 while a slight mistake, is not even remotely close to giving Holik 9 per. or Redden 6.5 per.

If they didn't pull crap like that, they could live with giving the home grown core decent contracts that may be a little more than they could get away with.
Holik at 9 is much less of a mistake than Redden at 6.5 per simply because of the cap. Giving Stepan 3.5 could barely be classified as a mistake.

But Im not sure how Holik has anything to do with Stepan? Im sure you have a point but Im just not seeing it.

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And yet the Rangers year in and year out make those same mistakes on players that have no organizational ties.

if they are going to make mistakes, and THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE THEM, then they should be on their home grown kids and not the mercs coming in because of the bloated contract.
Also, they haven't made any the last two years. Granted it is only two years but its better than nothing.

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09-20-2013, 02:37 PM
  #846
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And yet the Rangers year in and year out make those same mistakes on players that have no organizational ties.

if they are going to make mistakes, and THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE THEM, then they should be on their home grown kids and not the mercs coming in because of the bloated contract.
Mistakes are never justifiable.

Just because the Rangers make them a lot, doesn't mean they should continue to make them.

Pay Stepan more money now, when he has no leverage, then you set yourself up to pay Kreider, Fast, Lindberg, Miller, McIlrath, Hrivik, etc, if they have good seasons in the NHL prior to their first free agency periods.

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09-20-2013, 02:51 PM
  #847
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Mistakes are never justifiable.

Just because the Rangers make them a lot, doesn't mean they should continue to make them.

Pay Stepan more money now, when he has no leverage, then you set yourself up to pay Kreider, Fast, Lindberg, Miller, McIlrath, Hrivik, etc, if they have good seasons in the NHL prior to their first free agency periods.
This. You give one kid a pony for christmas, the other kids don't want bikes, they want ponies.

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09-20-2013, 02:52 PM
  #848
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Holik at 9 is much less of a mistake than Redden at 6.5 per simply because of the cap. Giving Stepan 3.5 could barely be classified as a mistake.

But Im not sure how Holik has anything to do with Stepan? Im sure you have a point but Im just not seeing it.



Also, they haven't made any the last two years. Granted it is only two years but its better than nothing.
Holik at 9, cap or no cap, was approx. 4-5 million more than he was worth. Granted, that's what the makrket was paying him, but it was a mistake nonetheless. And it's just my opinion, but the Holik/Redden mistakes were evenly atrocious.

The point is, this team has historically tripped over itself trying to pay the mercs while squeezing the home grown talent. To me, that is bass ackwards.

I would say that bringing in Pyatt, Powe and Asham were all mistakes.

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09-20-2013, 02:52 PM
  #849
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Stepan's father and sister have twitter accounts. Nice to see Derek was hanging out with his girlfriend and sister last Monday while the Rangers were getting ready to play the Devils. The sister tweeted that. I heard Hockeycentral on the FAN590 earlier today. They were discussing Franson and how he really needs to get into camp. Sitting out is not benefitting him. They(Daren Millard,Doug MacLean and Scotty Morrison)didn't discuss Stepan but the same advice for him. Get your ass into camp. Sign the 2 year contract. Perform. The cap will be $75M-$80M in the summer of 2015 heading into 15-16. He will be arbitration eligible and hold ALL of the leverage. The Canadian national TV money will increase in 14-15 and it will be reflected in the 15-16 cap.

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The cap is going up in the future. Stepan needs to perform to get his money. He is not going to perform sitting in Minnesota.

The Caps are hosting the 2015 Winter Classic. The Flyers are the rumored opponent.

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09-20-2013, 02:55 PM
  #850
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It IS about age. Hagelin is much more likely to already be the player he's going to be at 25 than Stepan is at 23. Because Carl is already there, there's more likely to be a dispute between the players value of himself and the leverage the team has over him. So you bring in an arbitrator.
So you're more confident in Hagelin going forward than Stepan?

It should not be about age, the reason for the rule is because they want players unlike Stepan and Subban to be able to be in these situations. It supposedly protects the team from having to overpay on a player they are not sure about. Fair enough, I agree there needs to be 2nd contracts, but in the cases where a player already has three full years of NHL experience, if the team does not know what they have by then they are just being coy. No team is going to play a player for three straight NHL years without knowing what they have.

The clause should be something like age at first signing with another clause saying except if the player has played in 3 full NHL season or something that allows for players who deserve the leverage to get it. As is it does nothing except cause these types of situations where a player has to risk injury during a bridge contract while he watches players with less experience get more guaranteed money than him.

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