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Derek Stepan Negotiations (9/19-Dreger: "Unlikely" Stepan signs before season opens)

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Old
09-20-2013, 02:55 PM
  #851
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Mistakes are never justifiable.

Just because the Rangers make them a lot, doesn't mean they should continue to make them.

Pay Stepan more money now, when he has no leverage, then you set yourself up to pay Kreider, Fast, Lindberg, Miller, McIlrath, Hrivik, etc, if they have good seasons in the NHL prior to their first free agency periods.
And I would rather slightly over pay those kids than the Pyatt's/Powe's/Asham's or the world.

If you are going to make mistakes, and again, you ARE GOING TO MAKE THEM, then they should be on the home grown core and not some fricken merc.

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09-20-2013, 03:00 PM
  #852
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Holik at 9, cap or no cap, was approx. 4-5 million more than he was worth. Granted, that's what the makrket was paying him, but it was a mistake nonetheless. And it's just my opinion, but the Holik/Redden mistakes were evenly atrocious.

The point is, this team has historically tripped over itself trying to pay the mercs while squeezing the home grown talent. To me, that is bass ackwards.

I would say that bringing in Pyatt, Powe and Asham were all mistakes.
I agree with you for the most part sans Asham. I think a player like him was needed and there wasn't any one in the farm who is as good as Asham in that role IMO.

As far as Holik and Redden go... just stupid decisions. Utterly stupid. I lost a bet on that Redden signing and it still haunts me as we had a pretty crazy (non monetary wager).

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09-20-2013, 03:05 PM
  #853
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And I would rather slightly over pay those kids than the Pyatt's/Powe's/Asham's or the world.

If you are going to make mistakes, and again, you ARE GOING TO MAKE THEM, then they should be on the home grown core and not some fricken merc.
It doesn't matter whether you overpay a home grown talent or merc if they produce and make the overpayment worth it. Obviously I suspct you're trying to say the home grown guy like Stepan is more likely to be worth it compared to an Asham which I agree with although Asham's overpayment is way lower and he has a very different role. In the end overpayment is bad no matter who it's to. If you can get a player for less money then it's better for the team no matter what. Of course losing a player helps no one and overpaying a dud helps no one I'm sure everyone agrees I'm not rocking the world with these statements but I don't want to make it look like I'm disagreeing on everything you said because I agree with the implied point

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09-20-2013, 03:09 PM
  #854
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Cody Franson on contract stalemate with the #leafs: "I honestly didn't think it would come to this."
https://twitter.com/reporterchris/st...30462242295808

What's Stepan saying today?

August 26

Quote:
"I don't expect either side expects me not to be [at camp]," Stepan said in his first public comments on the negotiations this summer during the first day of the U.S. National Team's orientation camp. "Both sides are working at finding the right number and a fair deal . . . I don't think anybody wants it to stretch out longer than it should."
Quote:
Right now, he is exercising that patience in the contract talks. Asked if he prefers that a deal with the Rangers get done today, Stepan said: "In a perfect world, yes, but these things take time. It's something that both sides have to agree on. It's just part of the business."

If Stepan agrees to a short-term deal and produces, the Hastings, Minn., native should be rewarded. "He'll be there [at camp]," predicted Rangers teammate and University of Wisconsin pal Ryan McDonagh, who also was invited to the camp. "It's a unique situation for him, but ultimately he'll be a Ranger."
http://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey...-out-1.5961303

Charles Wang has a rule. If you don't have a contract by signed when training camp begins,you're not getting a contract to play that season. Sean Bergenheim was forced to play a season in Europe when he didn't re-sign as a group II before camp.

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09-20-2013, 03:14 PM
  #855
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Pay Stepan more money now, when he has no leverage, then you set yourself up to pay Kreider, Fast, Lindberg, Miller, McIlrath, Hrivik, etc, if they have good seasons in the NHL prior to their first free agency periods.
If those players are worth it when it's their time what is the issue with paying them what the market rate is for players that compare to them?

Del Zotto, I agree use the leverage, up and down in the NHL/AHL some good some bad.

Kreider, based on his first season, I agree use the leverage unless he breaks out into some awesome player.

Miller same as Kreider.


They will be different than what Stepan has done.

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09-20-2013, 03:30 PM
  #856
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
If those players are worth it when it's their time what is the issue with paying them what the market rate is for players that compare to them?

Del Zotto, I agree use the leverage, up and down in the NHL/AHL some good some bad.

Kreider, based on his first season, I agree use the leverage unless he breaks out into some awesome player.

Miller same as Kreider.


They will be different than what Stepan has done.
Because he wants more than his market value.

He wants the same contract or more than Duchene got for his Bridge. Duchene is better, had produced better and over a full season AND was getting his contract under a larger cap.

He wants more than market rate. If he wanted market rate, he would sign the 3.0-3.2 that he is supposedly being offered.

Plyaers that have no leverage should absolutely not be overpaid by a dime.

And if they want to sit out for more money, then they'll end up losing money in the long term.

You EARN the right to be a UFA.

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09-20-2013, 03:34 PM
  #857
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Originally Posted by MESSY11 View Post
WTF RNH 42 mil over 7 years unbeleavable!!! I'm just speechless. How can you tell Stepan now here you go 3 mil per when some kid who hasnt done crap in the league except for some flashes of potential gets 6 freaking mil. Some teams just dont get it that is why they are stuck in reverse all the time. The kid has 76 points in the nhl over past 2 years this is so Islanders like.
Why is it so Islanders like when they signed Tavares, a top 5-8 player in the entire league, to a contract for roughly 5.? mil AAV over 6 years?

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09-20-2013, 03:59 PM
  #858
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Because he wants more than his market value.

He wants the same contract or more than Duchene got for his Bridge. Duchene is better, had produced better and over a full season AND was getting his contract under a larger cap.

He wants more than market rate. If he wanted market rate, he would sign the 3.0-3.2 that he is supposedly being offered.

Plyaers that have no leverage should absolutely not be overpaid by a dime.

And if they want to sit out for more money, then they'll end up losing money in the long term.

You EARN the right to be a UFA.
As it relates to Duchene, Stepan has a whopping 10 less points over his first three seasons than Duchene has had.

Stepan has been a better PK'er and overall more responsible player during the comparative seasons.

Matt D - 221 games played - 150 points.

Average Ice time:

09-10 - 17:43 with :25 per game SH
10-11 - 18:56 with :04 per game SH
11-12 - 16:17 with :02 per game SH

Derek S - 212 games played - 140 points.

Average Ice time:

10-11 - 16:26 with :26 per game SH
11-12 - 18:56 with 1:17 per game SH
12-13 - 20:55 with 2:06 per game SH

If there EVER was a comparable player for what Stepan is asking for a certain dollar amount, Matt Duchene IS THAT COMPARABLE PLAYER.

Lets eliminate the fact that one is the 3rd overall pick because if we DO take that into consideration then it actually favors Stepan more in the argument than it does Duchene.

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Old
09-20-2013, 04:00 PM
  #859
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Why is it so Islanders like when they signed Tavares, a top 5-8 player in the entire league, to a contract for roughly 5.? mil AAV over 6 years?
That Tavares deal is probably one of the best in the game right now.

Sweet contract for the team.

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09-20-2013, 04:00 PM
  #860
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
So you're more confident in Hagelin going forward than Stepan?

It should not be about age, the reason for the rule is because they want players unlike Stepan and Subban to be able to be in these situations. It supposedly protects the team from having to overpay on a player they are not sure about. Fair enough, I agree there needs to be 2nd contracts, but in the cases where a player already has three full years of NHL experience, if the team does not know what they have by then they are just being coy. No team is going to play a player for three straight NHL years without knowing what they have.

The clause should be something like age at first signing with another clause saying except if the player has played in 3 full NHL season or something that allows for players who deserve the leverage to get it. As is it does nothing except cause these types of situations where a player has to risk injury during a bridge contract while he watches players with less experience get more guaranteed money than him.
I'm more confident that Hagelin is exactly what we've seen from him, yes.

There are very few players who you know exactly what you have with at 23. There are many, many who you know exactly what you have with at 25. Those two years are a HUGE difference in development. When Callahan turned 23, he was putting up 8 goals in 52 games. When he turned 25, he was basically the 20-goal scorer we know today.

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09-20-2013, 04:22 PM
  #861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
https://twitter.com/reporterchris/st...30462242295808

What's Stepan saying today?

August 26





http://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey...-out-1.5961303

Charles Wang has a rule. If you don't have a contract by signed when training camp begins,you're not getting a contract to play that season. Sean Bergenheim was forced to play a season in Europe when he didn't re-sign as a group II before camp.


Are we gonna treat our #1C like Charles Wang?

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09-20-2013, 04:37 PM
  #862
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From what I remember, there was a rule in the previous CBA that a player had to sign by November 15 to play in the NHL. Anyone who didn't had to sit out the rest of the season or try to find a job in Europe. If that's still in effect, there's the deadline for Stepan. Anyone know if that rule's still around?

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09-20-2013, 04:41 PM
  #863
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Are we gonna treat our #1C like Charles Wang?
Doubt it. Last I looked Wang had the most cap space in the league by quite a margin. He's a low budget guy. Bergenheim is one thing but would he do that if it were Tavares? I like a lot of what the Isles have done in the last few years but eventually these guys are going to have to be paid--a young team now but when they start hitting on all cylinders Wang either ponies up or he'll start losing people. Want to win you're not going to be a bottom feeder on the cap floor forever.

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09-20-2013, 05:01 PM
  #864
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
As it relates to Duchene, Stepan has a whopping 10 less points over his first three seasons than Duchene has had.

Stepan has been a better PK'er and overall more responsible player during the comparative seasons.

Matt D - 221 games played - 150 points.

Average Ice time:

09-10 - 17:43 with :25 per game SH
10-11 - 18:56 with :04 per game SH
11-12 - 16:17 with :02 per game SH

Derek S - 212 games played - 140 points.

Average Ice time:

10-11 - 16:26 with :26 per game SH
11-12 - 18:56 with 1:17 per game SH
12-13 - 20:55 with 2:06 per game SH

If there EVER was a comparable player for what Stepan is asking for a certain dollar amount, Matt Duchene IS THAT COMPARABLE PLAYER.

Lets eliminate the fact that one is the 3rd overall pick because if we DO take that into consideration then it actually favors Stepan more in the argument than it does Duchene.

Matt Duchene had a 67 point season over the course of a full year.

Stepan, hasn't proven he can play at that level over a full year.

And yes, I agree, he is an absolute comparable. So when the cap hasn't increased one iota then when Duchene was signed, even Stepan asking for 3.5 would at MOST be the highest he is paid.

Contracts are lesser this year (outside of the select few UFA"s), whether Stepan likes it or not.

He is reportedly asking for more than 3.5. Giving me those numbers, how is his value HIGHER than that of Duchene's?

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09-20-2013, 05:05 PM
  #865
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Originally Posted by free0717 View Post
Are we gonna treat our #1C like Charles Wang?
You mean JOhn T. One of the best Centers in the NHL, who signed for an extremely fair contract to help his team stay within budget.

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09-20-2013, 05:30 PM
  #866
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
And yet the Rangers year in and year out make those same mistakes on players that have no organizational ties.

if they are going to make mistakes, and THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE THEM, then they should be on their home grown kids and not the mercs coming in because of the bloated contract.
There is a huge problem with this logic that you are glossing over (or may just not realize). Say they make that "small mistake" with Stepan and pay him more than he's worth. Don't you realize that you've now just created a precedent with our other, future RFAs that they can and will get paid more than they are worth? You've just created a potential snowball effect with that one mistake. A few hundred K here, a few hundred K there, you end up getting up to a million or more. That can be a very big problem in a cap world.

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09-20-2013, 05:36 PM
  #867
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What a joke BOTH sides are.

Is the end goal the cup or not? Wake the **** up and stop being greedy and pinching pennies BOTH sides.

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09-20-2013, 06:03 PM
  #868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
There is a huge problem with this logic that you are glossing over (or may just not realize). Say they make that "small mistake" with Stepan and pay him more than he's worth. Don't you realize that you've now just created a precedent with our other, future RFAs that they can and will get paid more than they are worth? You've just created a potential snowball effect with that one mistake. A few hundred K here, a few hundred K there, you end up getting up to a million or more. That can be a very big problem in a cap world.
We are talking 250k per year. That amt per plsyer for 5-6 players is easier to digest than making that same 1.5 million per year mistake on ONE player

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09-20-2013, 06:06 PM
  #869
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Matt Duchene had a 67 point season over the course of a full year.

Stepan, hasn't proven he can play at that level over a full year.

And yes, I agree, he is an absolute comparable. So when the cap hasn't increased one iota then when Duchene was signed, even Stepan asking for 3.5 would at MOST be the highest he is paid.

Contracts are lesser this year (outside of the select few UFA"s), whether Stepan likes it or not.

He is reportedly asking for more than 3.5. Giving me those numbers, how is his value HIGHER than that of Duchene's?
Well if I'm looking for a contract that pays me 3.5 with an understanding I would accept 3.3 then I'm coming in at 4.0 easily.

I personally don't care if the cap has gone down I've justified my position. Its on sather to make it fit.

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09-20-2013, 06:29 PM
  #870
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Are we gonna treat our #1C like Charles Wang?
What?

There is a December 1 signing deadline for group IIs in the CBA. If the player doesn't sign by December 1,he can't play in the NHL that season and he has the same status as before. The rule wasn't part of the 2013 season transition rules. What's the difference between September 11 and December 1?

Everyone said don't worry Stepan will be signed by camp. That didn't happen. Stepan will sign soon. Today is day #10 of training camp. Its a 20 day camp. Will Stepan be in the line-up on opening night? Its 13 days away. At this pace,Stepan won't be in the line-up anytime soon.

What's the end game here? Wait until the Rangers suffer an injury so they will give Stepan $3.5M?

Stepan is going to stroll into the team in October or November so he doesn't miss the December 1 deadline? He can stay home and come back in 2014. WTF. Sign the contract.

Quote:
Carlyle says the absent Cody Franson is not in his thought process right now. "It's a cruel thing to say, but you move on without people."
https://twitter.com/sunhornby/status/381181304760320001

AV said the same thing. Stepan isn't here and I can only coach the players here.

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09-20-2013, 06:47 PM
  #871
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We are talking 250k per year. That amt per plsyer for 5-6 players is easier to digest than making that same 1.5 million per year mistake on ONE player
Yes. For this one player right now. You risk creating a precedent by giving in to hardline agents. It's stupid to allow that with a RFA.

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09-20-2013, 06:53 PM
  #872
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Yes. For this one player right now. You risk creating a precedent by giving in to hardline agents. It's stupid to allow that with a RFA.
Simple way to say that: It's not the dollar figure that sets the precedent, it's the act of capitulation.

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09-20-2013, 07:09 PM
  #873
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I hope the Rangers make a statement and force Stepan to miss the season.

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09-20-2013, 07:15 PM
  #874
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the minute the regular season starts Step has already screwed himself out of the extra money he's trying to get out of the Rangers.

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09-20-2013, 07:15 PM
  #875
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I hope the Rangers make a statement and force Stepan to miss the season.
He should sign somewhere else if the Rangers do that.

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