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Old
09-16-2013, 11:01 AM
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
So if Markov or Subban gets hurt we essentially have a PP duo of Bouillion-Subban or Markov-Subban. Outstanding.

Also, to reduce all of Diaz's capabilities to powerplay ability is really disingenuous. Actually the whole assessment of Diaz's capabilities in the last 2 pages are completely disingenuous. The obsession over size and toughness has reached unprecedented proportions on this board. Boullion is not better than Diaz. I don't even need to look at stats or even make an argument to explain why. Everyone suggested otherwise is sitting there with a blind fold over their eyes and a thumb in their ass.

I'll just carry on, I disagree entirely with what is being said.
It's funny how people say we should play Bouillon in the 6th spot instead of Diaz, then you come up saying they want size and toughness. Bouillon is small and, despite being tough for his size, isn't overly impressive with his toughness.

Anyway it's Tinordi who should play over Bouillon and Diaz, and it has nothing to do with size or toughness.

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:01 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
So let me get this straight, it's okay if Beaulieu's defensive game isn't polished so long as he is okay on the PP, yet Diaz should GTFO because his defensive game isn't polished and all he can do is play on the PP?

Great logic.

Also just because those team's don't have PP depth on the backend, doesn't mean the Habs should follow suit.
Not sure anyone is saying lets move Daiz to make move for Beaulieu, it's to make room for Tinordi. You reason Beaulieu name came up because you spoke about injuries.

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:02 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
So saying Diaz is soft and can't clear the crease has nothing to do with size and toughness. GTFOH. If Diaz was 6'2 and threw the occasional hit, you out of all posters would cling to Diaz jewels more than anyone on this board.

I've explained many times why I don't need stats to see Diaz's qualities as a defender.

-he has good gap control
-good anticipation
-a strong active stick
-a good first pass
-an above average offensive awareness.

To overlook all those contributions because he's "soft", or to overlook all those and say all he is is PP d-men is completely disingenuous.
For the nth time, even if you keep putting those words in my mouth, I COULDN'T CARE LESS if Diaz threw 0 hits in the league. I don't expect him to throw any to be honest. Just like I don't expect Markov to throw any.

That being said, I hate the kind of player that gets rid of the puck like it's a hot potato each time he hears footsteps coming, and who has trouble just keeping a play alive (especially when he's supposed to be an offensive d-man). I'm not even talking about the number of times he's circling around/behind the net when a guy drives there, leaving his partner alone in the crease to help his goalie.

Markov, for one, won't throw big hits, and won't get overly physical. But he plays with authority and is not going to make such stupid things.

Diaz? Yeah. None of that.

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:02 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
Not sure anyone is saying lets move Daiz to make move for Beaulieu, it's to make room for Tinordi. You reason Beaulieu name came up because you spoke about injuries.
If anyone should go to make room for Tinordi it's Boullion.

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:04 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
For the nth time, even if you keep putting those words in my mouth, I COULDN'T CARE LESS if Diaz threw 0 hits in the league. I don't expect him to throw any to be honest. Just like I don't expect Markov to throw any.

That being said, I hate the kind of player that gets rid of the puck like it's a hot potato each time he hears footsteps coming, and who has trouble just keeping a play alive (especially when he's supposed to be an offensive d-man). I'm not even talking about the number of times he's circling around/behind the net when a guy drives there, leaving his partner alone in the crease to help his goalie.

Markov, for one, won't throw big hits, and won't get overly physical. But he plays with authority and is not going to make such stupid things.

Diaz? Yeah. None of that.
To speak about this type of player is not to speak of Diaz. This is where I disagree with you and this is where you should go back an watch the games and stop thinking of a softeness-toughness dichotomy as the be-all-end-all of hockey assessments.

Just because not everyone defensemen is a Markov doesn't mean they are completely useless.

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:05 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
If anyone should go to make room for Tinordi it's Boullion.
You're talking about making room and players leaving. I never specified to trade Diaz. Few people did. That being said, I listed a number of reasons why he shouldn't be considered NOTCHES above the other bottom-pairing d-men. Some here say he's a #3/#4 d-man. In my mind, against more physical teams, he should not have a guaranteed spot.

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:08 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
You're talking about making room and players leaving. I never specified to trade Diaz. Few people did. That being said, I listed a number of reasons why he shouldn't be considered NOTCHES above the other bottom-pairing d-men. Some here say he's a #3/#4 d-man. In my mind, against more physical teams, he should not have a guaranteed spot.
All you're reasons are dumb as you again you show that it all boils down to toughness. It's a completely flawed way to assess hockey talent.

You say "it's not about toughness, don't put words in my mouth." And then follow it up with "Diaz shouldn't play against more physical teams."

Seriously, you're so blinded by your obsession with toughness that you can't even see your contradicting ideas.

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09-16-2013, 11:08 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
To speak about this type of player is not to speak of Diaz. This is where I disagree with you and this is where you should go back an watch the games and stop thinking of a softeness-toughness dichotomy as the be-all-end-all of hockey assessments.

Just because not everyone defensemen is a Markov doesn't mean they are completely useless.
Have I said he's completely useless? You keep jamming words down my throat. That being said, while not completely useless, he's far from being part of the core, or having the status of a veteran who has guaranteed icetime, like some here seem to suggest.

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:10 AM
  #134
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I can't believe I actually took part in a player argument on here like our opinions actually matter I'll stick to scrolling by and laughing again from now on. Such a waste of time.

Is Rask playing tonight?

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:13 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
All you're reasons are dumb as you again you show that it all boils down to toughness. It's a completely flawed way to assess hockey talent.

You say "it's not about toughness, don't put words in my mouth." And then follow it up with "Diaz shouldn't play against more physical teams."

Seriously, you're so blinded by your obsession with toughness that you can't even your contradicting ideas.
Going in the personal insults now? You should take a piece of your own advices Andy. I'm perfectly calm, and for someone who keeps clamoring for me to "chill out", you're being extremely aggressive out there, skipping words and using violent words.

To me, being soft is not just about not giving hits. It's about avoiding them like pest, and changing your play for the worst when you hear footsteps. So yeah. Excuse me if I don't think a guy like Diaz, who makes very, very stupid decisions when pressured, should play against the most physical teams out there. I'm entitled to my opinion. To me, last year's playoffs showed the essence of the problem. Offensively, Diaz did a whole lot of nothing, contributed in none of our goals, and his offensive game was just overtook by his fear of physicality.

You told me I would not hate Diaz if he hit everything in sight. He could hit Lucic 6 times a game against the Bruins for all I care, if he was that scared with the puck, I would hate him just as much.

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:14 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Dagistitsyn View Post
I can't believe I actually took part in a player argument on here like our opinions actually matter I'll stick to scrolling by and laughing again from now on. Such a waste of time.

Is Rask playing tonight?
No. Didn't travel with the Bruins. Subban and Johnson for them

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:15 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Going in the personal insults now? You should take a piece of your own advices Andy. I'm perfectly calm, and for someone who keeps clamoring for me to "chill out", you're being extremely aggressive out there, skipping words and using violent words.
.
To say those reasons are dumb is not to say you are dumb. This is a link you've made in your own head.

I'm not going to bother to read the rest of the post because it's the same thing you wrote two pages ago which I completely disagree with. You repeating it doesn't mean I'll agree. You're just wrong on your assessment of Diaz and it all stems down to toughness or softness which ever you want to call it.

Why even argue with someone who even claims that Diaz offers nothing offensively? It's just flat out wrong. All it shows is that you have no idea what you are talking about. At least I know to skip your post when your assessing a player because you have no idea how to do it in a partial manner.

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:18 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
To say those reasons are dumb is not to say you are dumb. This is a link you've made in your own head.

I'm not going to bother to read the rest of the post because it's the same thing you wrote two pages ago which I completely disagree with. You repeating it doesn't mean I'll agree. You're just wrong on your assessment of Diaz and it all stems down to toughness or softness which ever you want to call it.

Why even argue with someone who even claims that Diaz offers nothing offensively? All it shows is that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Once again with the attacks. What's wrong with you?

I don't know what I'm talking about according to you. And possibly other posters in here. Fair enough. I don't think you're evaluating this player clearly neither.

Putting words in someone's mouth is not cool, Andy. I don't like the kind of d-man Diaz is. I look around the league, and I don't see any main actor on any team who has the same kind of weakness as Diaz. A select group of people here talk as if he was definitely worth much more than other bottom-pairing d-men. This is where I don't agree. He brings something to the table that has to be considered. He still has some HUGE flaws that people don't want to see here. And that includes you. You might act as if those particularities (i.e. getting rid of the puck in "hot" situations, not being able to keep a play alive in the offensive zone, and giving 0 effort to helping his goalie in the crease) don't matter for d-men. I personally value those much more than you. It's my right.

Once again, I've never said Diaz doesn't contribute offensively. That's once again your interpretation. All I said, is that in that series against Ottawa, his flaws overtook his strengths, one of the reasons being that he couldn't play his game because he was too scared.

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:21 AM
  #139
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Man, Bergevin, "our saviour," really messed up by signing Bouillon and DD waaaaaaayyyyy too early.

Oh well, one more year! Guaranteed next year, we wont see Bouillon and Gionta. Baby steps. I love Boui though but I think it's time to move on. As for DD, I just hope he turns it around. I dont want to spend the whole season hating on him.

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:23 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Toshio View Post
Man, Bergevin, "our saviour," really messed up by signing Bouillon and DD waaaaaaayyyyy too early.

Oh well, one more year! Guaranteed next year, we wont see Bouillon and Gionta. Baby steps. I love Boui though but I think it's time to move on. As for DD, I just hope he turns it around. I dont want to spend the whole season hating on him.
Well Bouillon for sure isn't coming back after this season, as for DD I don't understand why he gave him 3 years especially with the young players we already have

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:28 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Dagistitsyn View Post
I didn't say he was. I said he's proven he can be. I see this is a pointless conversation though because everyone's already decided it's time to move Diaz outta town

Whatever, he was playing good for awhile and a lot of people either didn't watch the games / forget/ or just need him to hit everything or fly the **** outta town.

Suicide passes happen, it was ONE pass, ONE costly mistake. If Gryba was 2 feet to the side everyone would be saying how nice of a pass it was. Yeah he got concussed, how is that his fault? He got kneed in the head.
I didn't read anywhere ppl wanting im out ASAP. I wrote try to trade him for a pick before season ends because we're gonna lose him for nothing, he'll demand 1M + if he ends up racking some points on the PP.

You compared Diaz and Murray as in 'both are proven NHLers'. Dude, Murray is a proven NHLer, Diaz isn't.

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09-16-2013, 11:28 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Toshio View Post
Man, Bergevin, "our saviour," really messed up by signing Bouillon and DD waaaaaaayyyyy too early.

Oh well, one more year! Guaranteed next year, we wont see Bouillon and Gionta. Baby steps. I love Boui though but I think it's time to move on. As for DD, I just hope he turns it around. I dont want to spend the whole season hating on him.
Better to play it safe. If the rookies NEED to be in the NHL, you can always put Bouillon and Drewiskie in the minors and hope they get picked up on waivers. Also, better to not rush these guys, Tinordi's only 21 and still growing into his body. If we want him to become a top-4 defenceman, I'd think it would be good for his development to get more time on the top pairing and potentially even on the PP in Hamilton, he likely wouldn't even sniff these opportunities if he were in Montreal.

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:30 AM
  #143
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You don't play Tinordi on the right side. He's much more effective on the left side and he's more comfortable.

Best defence lineup to start the year is:

Markov-Gorges
Tinordi-Subban
Murray-Diaz

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:31 AM
  #144
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For Malcolm Subban

Is is NHL or Junior?

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:33 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
This is the dumbest thing I've heard in quite some time on these boards. Congratulations.
What is your argument ?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php?pid=110977 Leblanc's stats

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=76283
Diaz's stats

So Diaz played 30 more NHL games so he is obviously an NHLer and Leblanc isn't right ? How is that dumb ? Both shouldn't be considered regular NHLers untill they prove themselves to be. Diaz should be in competition with the other upcoming Ds, not being pegged in a safe spot.

How is Diaz a proven NHLer again ?

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Old
09-16-2013, 11:35 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by SmurfsFTW View Post
What is your argument ?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php?pid=110977 Leblanc's stats

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=76283
Diaz's stats

So Diaz played 30 more NHL games so he is obviously an NHLer and Leblanc isn't right ? How is that dumb ? Both shouldn't be considered regular NHLers untill they prove themselves to be. Diaz should be in competition with the other upcoming Ds, not being pegged in a safe spot.
I think he thinks it's dumb because you don't think like him.

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09-16-2013, 11:36 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by SmurfsFTW View Post
What is your argument ?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php?pid=110977 Leblanc's stats

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=76283
Diaz's stats



So Diaz played 30 more NHL games so he is obviously an NHLer and Leblanc isn't right ? How is that dumb ? Both shouldn't be considered regular NHLers untill they prove themselves to be. Diaz should be in competition with the other upcoming Ds, not being pegged in a safe spot.
I think Habs management has elevated Diaz way too much. They have penciled him in the top 4 and while I am no expert, he simply looks like a spare D on a high caliber team. That suicide pass to Eller last spring pissed me off

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09-16-2013, 11:37 AM
  #148
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Well Bouillon for sure isn't coming back after this season, as for DD I don't understand why he gave him 3 years especially with the young players we already have
4 years, even better. In all seriousness if Eller shows again this year he can be a good offensive player in this league Bergevin won't hesitate to make moves. Especially with Galchenyuk's eventual move to center, having Desharnais signed to this very affordable contract he would be easy to trade to a team in need of a center since he likely won't cost alot to get in a trade.

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09-16-2013, 11:37 AM
  #149
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On Bouillon vs Tinordi I see two questions.
1) Which of the two will improve the team right now?
2) Which of the two will themselves improve by playing?

Even if Bouillon wins question 1 (and IMHO he does not), there should be little doubt about question 2. Playing in the NHL will have a more positive effect on a 22 year old with 8 games experience than it will on a 38 year-old with 725 games experience. Bouillon is not going to get better, Tinordi is. I think staying in the AHL and playing against guys half his size and with low skill levels can actually create and sustain some bad habits for NHL-ready guys. Tinordi over Bouillon is the Habs investing in their future.

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09-16-2013, 11:37 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by SmurfsFTW View Post
I didn't read anywhere ppl wanting im out ASAP. I wrote try to trade him for a pick before season ends because we're gonna lose him for nothing, he'll demand 1M + if he ends up racking some points on the PP.

You compared Diaz and Murray as in 'both are proven NHLers'. Dude, Murray is a proven NHLer, Diaz isn't.
Nope, I didn't actually. Both of you guys read it wrong. I said "They've both proven they can be good NHL players."

I agree that Murray is a proven NHL player. All I said was Diaz has proven he can be a good player for this team.

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