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Bo Horvat vs the World (Nichushkin mostly)

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Old
09-17-2013, 09:43 AM
  #226
Tiranis
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Throw a big hit, run the goalie, whatever.
While that might get your attention, I can guarantee you that's not what the coaches are paying attention to. Horvat, outside of losing one important face-off (which can happen to anyone, after all even Malhtotra only wins 60% of them), was solid defensively throughout the game and made a few nice offensive plays.

The fact that you so heavily focus on that one face-off is laughable.

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09-17-2013, 09:47 AM
  #227
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Anyone who would judge an 18 year old based on one exhibition game is an idiot.

And knows nothing about hockey.

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09-17-2013, 09:47 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
While that might get your attention, I can guarantee you that's not what the coaches are paying attention to. Horvat, outside of losing one important face-off (which can happen to anyone, after all even Malhtotra only wins 60% of them), was solid defensively throughout the game and made a few nice offensive plays.

The fact that you so heavily focus on that one face-off is laughable.
A faceoff that became a scramble after a puck was knocked out of the air. Totally a fluke play, just like the winner on cannatta. Two plays that happen but don't tell you anything about either players abilities.

It's just one of those things that make it simple for certain people to call it like they see it.

What is the opposite to rose coloured glasses?

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09-17-2013, 09:50 AM
  #229
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A faceoff that became a scramble after a puck was knocked out of the air. Totally a fluke play, just like the winner on cannatta. Two plays that happen but don't tell you anything about either players abilities.
It's a pretty common occurence around here to blame the guy that loses a "key face-off" for the goal. Never understood it. First of all, it's only a 'key face-off' after the goal is scored and before that it's one of many face-offs in the game. Second, even the best players win maybe 70% defensive zone face-offs if they're lining up on their strong side all the time. Any one of those losses could be a goal. (Hell, it's not just a thing here, I've seen pundits do the same thing. Just one of those absolutely brain dead hockey comments that someone like Milbury would think up.)

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09-17-2013, 09:58 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Yes, I thought he was poor. His critical d-zone FO loss led directly to SJ's opening goal. That's about the only memorable play that he had.

I just can't agree with the notion that it "was just one game". That's the first time that he put on a Canuck jersey and played against an opponent. There are open spots in this lineup. He just didn't really show anything, and that goes for most of our prospects, actually. Were dominated, and really didn't show much at all, short of Shinkaruk's beauty goal and Gaunce's solid play throughout (didn't think Corrado deserved the level of praise that he's been getting). I guess I just wonder why some of these guys aren't trying a little harder to get noticed. Throw a big hit, run the goalie, whatever. Just no spark at all.

Well since you appear unhappy with all of our prospects this game, you may want to consider adjusting your expectations somewhat. In my experience players who go out to "try" to impress just end up playing worse. Lost a face-off? Guess what, players lose tons of face-offs, not just Bo Horvat. Even great face-off men end up losing 40-45% of their draws. Shocking! Sucks it led to a goal but the fact that you toss that on the "Horvat had a bad game" pile suggests you are searching for reasons to be unhappy with him. Run the goalie? Maybe if he's a 4th line idiot getting 2 minutes a game but my guess is that most players realize that doesn't particularly impress their coach all that much. What Horvat needs to do - and what WILL impress his coach - is playing his game. Puck possession, hard around the net, crisp passing plays, and hard back pressure and defensive coverage. Did he play it well last night? Not as well as we expect he can nor as well as I think he will at some point this preseason. Beyond that, I'm not sure what you want from your fellow Canuck fans. To be ultra-impatient and expect every one of our prospects to have a great game every time they step on the ice? I mean most of us expect him to return to London and continue to develop so that next training camp he is more impressive to you, me, and everyone micro-analysing ever single thing he does out on the ice. Perhaps that is why no one is joining you in crapping all over this kid?

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09-17-2013, 09:59 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
While that might get your attention, I can guarantee you that's not what the coaches are paying attention to. Horvat, outside of losing one important face-off (which can happen to anyone, after all even Malhtotra only wins 60% of them), was solid defensively throughout the game and made a few nice offensive plays.

The fact that you so heavily focus on that one face-off is laughable.
I'm not "faceoff guy" at all - totally overrated. However, he lost that one pretty clearly, and a few seconds later the puck was in the back of the net.

And it's easy to focus on that one sequence, because, quite frankly, it was by far Horvat's most memorable sequence of the evening. He did not have a good game.

EDIT: also meant to say that I disagree about your hitting/running the goalie thing. Torts has (correctly) said that this team needs more "bite". I didn't see any of that last night, though the "yawn" was in abundance. Again, I just don't understand why these guys aren't doing more to be noticed. Big, big dollars are at stake.

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09-17-2013, 10:00 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
What is the opposite to rose coloured glasses?
Poop coloured glasses?

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09-17-2013, 10:01 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
I'm not "faceoff guy" at all - totally overrated. However, he lost that one pretty clearly, and a few seconds later the puck was in the back of the net.

And it's easy to focus on that one sequence, because, quite frankly, it was by far Horvat's most memorable sequence of the evening. He did not have a good game.
So, other then that faceoff(which you say that you are not a faceoff guy, ok) you noticed no other bad plays?

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09-17-2013, 10:08 AM
  #234
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I believe it is called trolling. Please do us a favor and put him on ignore.
I disagree. He has a different opinion than most, and true it is largely negative in most cases. But that doesn't make a person a troll nor is it fair to toss that term around just because someone disagrees with the majority.

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09-17-2013, 10:47 AM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Yes, I thought he was poor. His critical d-zone FO loss led directly to SJ's opening goal. That's about the only memorable play that he had.

I just can't agree with the notion that it "was just one game". That's the first time that he put on a Canuck jersey and played against an opponent. There are open spots in this lineup. He just didn't really show anything, and that goes for most of our prospects, actually. Were dominated, and really didn't show much at all, short of Shinkaruk's beauty goal and Gaunce's solid play throughout (didn't think Corrado deserved the level of praise that he's been getting). I guess I just wonder why some of these guys aren't trying a little harder to get noticed. Throw a big hit, run the goalie, whatever. Just no spark at all.
Are you suggesting he played 10 games last night then?


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09-17-2013, 10:56 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
I'm not "faceoff guy" at all - totally overrated. However, he lost that one pretty clearly, and a few seconds later the puck was in the back of the net.

And it's easy to focus on that one sequence, because, quite frankly, it was by far Horvat's most memorable sequence of the evening. He did not have a good game.
What I hear in my head:

"Hey, I'm not saying this is a big deal at all, but THIS IS A BIG DEAL GUYS."

You can't say you're not a faceoff guy and they're overrated and then form an argument based on a single faceoff. Well, I mean, you can, but it's 10 pounds of ES in a 7 pound bag.

Quote:
EDIT: also meant to say that I disagree about your hitting/running the goalie thing. Torts has (correctly) said that this team needs more "bite". I didn't see any of that last night, though the "yawn" was in abundance. Again, I just don't understand why these guys aren't doing more to be noticed. Big, big dollars are at stake.
Off the top of my head, I don't have any recollection of Tortorella indicating that "bite" has anything to do with fighting or taking undisciplined penalties. In fact, his clubs are routinely among the most disciplined clubs in the entire league. I think if someone ran a goalie for the sole purpose of getting noticed, they may find themselves regretting the sort of attention Tortorella would lavish them with.

To me, Tortorella has been very clear that when he says bite he means making things difficult through the neutral zone, making it difficult for opposing teams to gain the zone with possession, and sacrificing the body to clear pucks/block shots/do whatever it takes to stop teams from getting pucks on net. I think shot-blocking as a strategy is questionable, but he believes it causes some sort of team "buy in" mentally.

Regardless, I don't expect that he's overly concerned with face-punching or running goalies for no discernible reason.


Last edited by Proto: 09-17-2013 at 11:15 AM.
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09-17-2013, 10:59 AM
  #237
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Personally, I was hoping Bo Horvat would put on the Canucks jersey and then at some point catch his reflection in a mirror and all of a sudden swell up with so much pride that he'd immediately take 5 bad penalties before being pulled off the ice by the refs, blood streaming from his face, his pads littering the ice, while screaming at the unrecognizable Sharks players that he has no history with.

By game 1 of the regular season I would expect him to be in the crease shivving people with a sharpened toothbrush.

If dude is gonna break bad, he has to start early.

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09-17-2013, 11:12 AM
  #238
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If dude is gonna break bad, he has to start early.
And figure out how to cook blue meth.

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09-17-2013, 11:25 AM
  #239
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I disagree. He has a different opinion than most, and true it is largely negative in most cases. But that doesn't make a person a troll nor is it fair to toss that term around just because someone disagrees with the majority.
I agree and disagree, he does have a different opinion, which is fine, but when 99 times out of 100, he has nothing to back up his argument, changes it when confronted, or anything like that, it is clear he is just trying to get attention.

I agree that Horvat didn't have a good game, thought he looked bad on that goal, like everyone else on the ice for us as coverage was lost. I think a lot of it probably comes from gripping the stick a bit too tight excited to play his first game. Even if its not, I am not going to go say how terrible a pick it was.

Just like I wont be all up in arms when at some point Lui has a bad game.

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09-17-2013, 12:01 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by CanaFan View Post
I disagree. He has a different opinion than most, and true it is largely negative in most cases. But that doesn't make a person a troll nor is it fair to toss that term around just because someone disagrees with the majority.
Come on, his opinion is whatever will get him attention. If everyone turns on Horvat tomorrow he'll be out buying a Bo jersey. But it's ok, everyone needs some attention and we all have different ways of getting it. More importantly, ES lets all the psych 101 students stretch their belief perseverance & confirmation bias muscles. So in a way he's helping them study. A martyr of sorts.

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09-17-2013, 12:12 PM
  #241
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It's worth noting that Horvat lost the faceoff in question to Joe Pavelski.

A guy playing his first game against NHL caliber competition lost a faceoff to a veteran centre who had the 40th most faceoff wins and a 51.8 win percentage last season. Is that really that concerning?

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09-17-2013, 12:25 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
What I hear in my head:

"Hey, I'm not saying this is a big deal at all, but THIS IS A BIG DEAL GUYS."

You can't say you're not a faceoff guy and they're overrated and then form an argument based on a single faceoff. Well, I mean, you can, but it's 10 pounds of ES in a 7 pound bag.
Well, it was a big deal last night, because it led directly to a goal against. Had there not been a goal against, it wouldn't have really mattered. But a goal occurs, and you look at how that goal happened, and the reality is that it leads back to Horvat losing the faceoff.

Luongo isn't the best puckhandler, to put it mildly, but the only time any of his mistakes with puckhandling go mentioned is when they lead to goals. Consequences generate discussion, good or bad.

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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Off the top of my head, I don't have any recollection of Tortorella indicating that "bite" has anything to do with fighting or taking undisciplined penalties. In fact, his clubs are routinely among the most disciplined clubs in the entire league. I think if someone ran a goalie for the sole purpose of getting noticed, they may find themselves regretting the sort of attention Tortorella would lavish them with.

To me, Tortorella has been very clear that when he says bite he means making things difficult through the neutral zone, making it difficult for opposing teams to gain the zone with possession, and sacrificing the body to clear pucks/block shots/do whatever it takes to stop teams from getting pucks on net. I think shot-blocking as a strategy is questionable, but he believes it causes some sort of team "buy in" mentally.

Regardless, I don't expect that he's overly concerned with face-punching or running goalies for no discernible reason.
I took "bite" as basically acknowledging that the team's too easy to play against. Clearly, you don't think that's a problem, as you've made fun of me for suggesting that repeatedly, but I have no idea how you can think "bite" means "let's make it more difficult for them to pass through the neutral zone".

If some guy like Archibald would've ran the goalie, or really laid out some Shark in the open ice, high-elbow, whatever, he would've been talked about. And you want to be talked about, as a guy who may or may not make the NHL. If I was playing, and I was a guy without much shot of making the team, I would've definitely done something like that. If it's done correctly, and not foolishly, like cowardly Dale Wiese taking a run at a Shark blatantly from behind and into the boards, it'll put some life into both the game itself, and the team as a whole. To me, that's exactly what "bite" is. It's energy. This team clearly still needs it.

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09-17-2013, 12:28 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
I took "bite" as basically acknowledging that the team's too easy to play against. Clearly, you don't think that's a problem, as you've made fun of me for suggesting that repeatedly, but I have no idea how you can think "bite" means "let's make it more difficult for them to pass through the neutral zone".
Because there are interviews with Torts when he was with the Rangers where he talks about this. To him 'bite' means blocking shots, taking guys hard into the boards in the neutral zone, going into tough areas, etc. It doesn't mean taking stupid penalties to get noticed. His teams are regularly some of the most disciplined in the league. He has even given an example of the type of 'bite' he's talking about — Sedins blocking a shot at a crucial time in a game and the type of energy that brings to the bench.

You're basically arguing with Tortorella himself as to what bite means to him.

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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Well, it was a big deal last night, because it led directly to a goal against. Had there not been a goal against, it wouldn't have really mattered. But a goal occurs, and you look at how that goal happened, and the reality is that it leads back to Horvat losing the faceoff.
This is just embarrassing. The logic of it and the fact that you can't see how dumb it is.

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09-17-2013, 12:34 PM
  #244
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I think "bite" means taking as many too many men on the ice penalties as possible.

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09-17-2013, 12:36 PM
  #245
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Guys, Horvat's faceoff loss might have taken us out of the running for Exhibition Season Champions! Can't you see how important that is?

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09-17-2013, 12:37 PM
  #246
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This is just embarrassing. The logic of it and the fact that you can't see how dumb it is.
Why? It's the same thing on the flip side. Do you really think Shinkaruk would be getting all of the love that he's getting this morning if he didn't score that goal?

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09-17-2013, 12:41 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Well, it was a big deal last night, because it led directly to a goal against. Had there not been a goal against, it wouldn't have really mattered. But a goal occurs, and you look at how that goal happened, and the reality is that it leads back to Horvat losing the faceoff.

Luongo isn't the best puckhandler, to put it mildly, but the only time any of his mistakes with puckhandling go mentioned is when they lead to goals. Consequences generate discussion, good or bad.
It's not a big deal. You're either intentionally or unintentionally ignoring cause and effect relationships. Here's a simple question: do you think a player wins some faceoffs because he wants to win them and loses others because he doesn't want to win them? I have a hard time picturing that scenario. So if you don't think winning a faceoff is a big deal, then deciding it's a big deal because of what happens after the faceoff is problematic reasoning.

If it was a playoff game, it would be fair to wonder why Tortorella had a rookie with (conceivably) sub-standard faceoff skills in the game at that point. That seems like a valid argument. But I don't think you'd blame the player that was in that situation and did what he always does -- unless you were privvy to some additional piece of information, such as a player specifically ignoring instructions he'd been given.


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I took "bite" as basically acknowledging that the team's too easy to play against. Clearly, you don't think that's a problem, as you've made fun of me for suggesting that repeatedly, but I have no idea how you can think "bite" means "let's make it more difficult for them to pass through the neutral zone".
Because that's what Tortorella has said it is. Watch some of his videos in New York. He did a weekly TV show and broke down video. They're available on Youtube. In one instance, he even gives Nash's play a dressing down on TV for not engaging the player along the side wall in the neutral zone.

He's consistently referred to making it hard for the competition, engaging players in the neutral zone, blocking shots, and competing hard away from the puck. That's his version of being difficult to play against: fighting for every inch of the ice so you can re-gain possession and attack the opposition. He wants players to smartly engage physically and rub players out, not run a goalie so he knows your name. That's my reading, anyway, and I think it's consistent with his various interviews.

I'm sure in some scenarios he'd be fine with his team taking exception and mucking things up. Most coaches are fine with that in some situations. But his teams are routinely bottom 5 in times shorthanded, and you don't get there trying to make an impression with dumb penalties.

Quote:
If some guy like Archibald would've ran the goalie, or really laid out some Shark in the open ice, high-elbow, whatever, he would've been talked about. And you want to be talked about, as a guy who may or may not make the NHL. If I was playing, and I was a guy without much shot of making the team, I would've definitely done something like that. If it's done correctly, and not foolishly, like cowardly Dale Wiese taking a run at a Shark blatantly from behind and into the boards, it'll put some life into both the game itself, and the team as a whole. To me, that's exactly what "bite" is. It's energy. This team clearly still needs it.
You think someone would have a better chance of making the team if he recklessly elbowed someone in the head just to get noticed? But Dale Weise is a coward for running someone from behind.

Okay then. I think you're well past your best before date here; this argument has curdled.


Last edited by Proto: 09-17-2013 at 12:51 PM.
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09-17-2013, 12:53 PM
  #248
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Nichushkin scored 2 goals, Horvat's mistake led to one goal against. Damn it he's a bust.


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09-17-2013, 12:57 PM
  #249
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Hard I judge horvats performance last night because the whole team was brutal at all facets of the game. All centers seemed to consistently lose face offs, fail to create any offense and took a bunch of penalties.

The whole team simply got outplayed besides our goalies and a few defenseman

And wow someone tell me why he canucks re-signed sestisto? Sorry just not a fan of him

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09-17-2013, 01:01 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Why? It's the same thing on the flip side. Do you really think Shinkaruk would be getting all of the love that he's getting this morning if he didn't score that goal?
Every once in awhile I am going to take a moment to applaud the consistency of your inconsistency. You are a true gem here. No sarcasm intended or implied.

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