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Bo Horvat vs the World (Nichushkin mostly)

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Old
09-18-2013, 11:48 AM
  #351
Barney Gumble
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
The reason I'd see for acquiring Kessel would be to play him with Kesler.
Which is sort of indirectly the same as my position. We need *both* types of players; it should *never* be a question of "one or the other".

As to which kind of prospect we should have.....same thoughts. We aren't in a position to prefer one or the other kind (though sure, one can never have too many center prospects).

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09-18-2013, 11:48 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Which team won? There is your answer. Which team continues to win.

The comparison is great here, Boston sucked with Kessel and won a cup and returned to the finals without him.

It's not to say he's a better player or even more impactful, just that he impacts the game ALL OVER the ice. If the thrill isn't scoring the only benefit to him being out there is drawing the tough opposition. He doesn't do enough other things well.

What he does well (shooting and scoring) is amazing, but you don't often win the cup based on talent....it's all about the composition of the entire team.

I'd pay Kessel as well, but we've already seen how each contributes to winning teams.
Well why did Boston lose to Washington the previous year, a team full of guys like Ovechkin, Semin, Backstrom, Johansson, etc?

Why did the gritty, two-way Kings and Bruins lose to the softer, skilled Blackhawks?

There is no one right way to build a team, and I'm not sure if there's any way to definitively show one type of player is better than another.

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09-18-2013, 11:49 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
You can't draw conclusions like that from any one game. Look at the Toronto-Boston series, Kessel was miles better than Bergeron until game 7 in the playoffs, and even after that Kessel had more points and a better +/- at the end of the series.

One, or even 7 games isn't going to tell you which player is more likely to come out on top.
Did not "draw conclusions" from that one game.
I used the "example" of Kessel's "superiority" to illustrate the key difference between these two players.
Kessel is certainly more gifted offensively, but if I had to win a game today, I would take Kesler, easily.

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09-18-2013, 11:49 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Which team won? There is your answer. Which team continues to win.

The comparison is great here, Boston sucked with Kessel and won a cup and returned to the finals without him.

It's not to say he's a better player or even more impactful, just that he impacts the game ALL OVER the ice. If the thrill isn't scoring the only benefit to him being out there is drawing the tough opposition. He doesn't do enough other things well.

What he does well (shooting and scoring) is amazing, but you don't often win the cup based on talent....it's all about the composition of the entire team.

I'd pay Kessel as well, but we've already seen how each contributes to winning teams.

The two-way player has more impact.

The basis for the comparison is that Horvat is the Kesler and for some reason unbeknownst to me, Kessel is being compared with Valeri Nichushkin. Yeah, I know, incredibly ridiculous.

VN compares to Nash. Horvat compares to Bergeron. Take Kessel and Kesler right out of the equation.

It's an easy choice for me: Bergeron, but I've said before, even though Nash is a more rare player, I think Bergeron is better and has a bigger impact on games.
I'm not as interested in two-way versus one-way in terms of that sort of thing. I'm more interested in the overall result on play. I'd take a one-dimensional offensive player over a two-way player if they were good enough offensively that the overall impact on the team's possession tipped the scale. I think ideally you have some of both, because in addition to 5v5 you need guys that excel on both facets of special teams play.


Last edited by Proto: 09-18-2013 at 11:55 AM.
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Old
09-18-2013, 11:59 AM
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Well why did Boston lose to Washington the previous year, a team full of guys like Ovechkin, Semin, Backstrom, Johansson, etc?

Why did the gritty, two-way Kings and Bruins lose to the softer, skilled Blackhawks?

There is no one right way to build a team, and I'm not sure if there's any way to definitively show one type of player is better than another.
Because they didn't play good enough.

I don't even know why we're talking about Phil Kessel. Seems pretty stupid to me.

Either way, I think you need both, but I prefer to have a base of two-way (doesn't just mean defensive, which is what it gets construed as....look at Toews).


The whole point is, IMO, Nichushkin isn't even in the same building as Kessel in terms of offensive talent, so I don't even know why we're going down this road.

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09-18-2013, 12:13 PM
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Because they didn't play good enough.

I don't even know why we're talking about Phil Kessel. Seems pretty stupid to me.

Either way, I think you need both, but I prefer to have a base of two-way (doesn't just mean defensive, which is what it gets construed as....look at Toews).


The whole point is, IMO, Nichushkin isn't even in the same building as Kessel in terms of offensive talent, so I don't even know why we're going down this road.
Well originally the comparison was made in a one-on-one matchup between Kessel and Kesler based on one game, but I was just showing that there are examples of the reverse happening. Then you said something about whichever team continues to win, but that doesn't really have to do with one individual matchup, and anyways there is no set rule that (generally)gritty two way teams beat (generally) softer skilled teams.

I'll be honest I don't know where the Kessel talk came from either though.

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:22 PM
  #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Twisting my words and repeating them in a sarcastic tone is not an argument.

If you want to continue the discussion I'm more than happy to oblige, but to keep throwing in snide remarks every now and then doesn't seem very productive.

You mean the discussion were anecdotal material and supposition remain your base argument? That "discussion"? Sure. You will see me post a rebuttal. We will be seeing a lot of each other on these boards I think...

@arsmaster: Generally agree with your sentiment, although that could be my bias showing.

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09-18-2013, 02:28 PM
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Well why did Boston lose to Washington the previous year, a team full of guys like Ovechkin, Semin, Backstrom, Johansson, etc?

Why did the gritty, two-way Kings and Bruins lose to the softer, skilled Blackhawks?

There is no one right way to build a team, and I'm not sure if there's any way to definitively show one type of player is better than another.
Guys like Toews and Bolland come to mind... who happen to be more like Horvat.

I agree with the opinion that you need both to succeed.

I also for reasons I went into earlier think there are too many questions behind VN, and Domi for that matter.

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09-18-2013, 02:36 PM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
Guys like Toews and Bolland come to mind... who happen to be more like Horvat.

I agree with the opinion that you need both to succeed.

I also for reasons I went into earlier think there are too many questions behind VN, and Domi for that matter.

CHI was softer, but they still had their 2way guys like Toews, Bolland, Saad, Sharp, Hossa, Hanzus, Shaw, Kruger and even Bickell, who was a 2way mainstay on their 3rd line prior to exploding.

The mistake in perception, as arsmaster cites, is equating a 2way guy to a strictly defensive player.

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09-18-2013, 02:40 PM
  #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
Guys like Toews and Bolland come to mind... who happen to be more like Horvat.

I agree with the opinion that you need both to succeed.

I also for reasons I went into earlier think there are too many questions behind VN, and Domi for that matter.
Indeed, you need all types of players. Boston had guys like Seguin and Marchand as well.

It's one of the reasons why I don't understand how anyone can make blanket statements about how one type of player is a better bet to draft/acquire as opposed to another.

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Old
09-18-2013, 02:48 PM
  #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Yes, I would absolutely draft a guy with Patrice Bergeron upside at 9th overall. With that somewhat lower ceiling comes a lower floor and less of a bust factor.

DTS, meant to ask you: Could you expand on what you mean by "higher floor". And how it pertains to the propensity of said players to make the NHL?

It seems some people cannot process what that means, or have an inability to read what is being written. Do share your thoughts.

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09-18-2013, 07:51 PM
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Indeed, you need all types of players. Boston had guys like Seguin and Marchand as well.

It's one of the reasons why I don't understand how anyone can make blanket statements about how one type of player is a better bet to draft/acquire as opposed to another.
While like I said I think you need both, I will also say starting a team from scratch, I take the two way guy first, but that is just me.

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09-18-2013, 08:21 PM
  #363
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If there's one thing Bleach Clean does, it's provide an argument.

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09-18-2013, 08:31 PM
  #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
DTS, meant to ask you: Could you expand on what you mean by "higher floor". And how it pertains to the propensity of said players to make the NHL?

It seems some people cannot process what that means, or have an inability to read what is being written. Do share your thoughts.
One could reasonably conclude a player with Horvat's skillset would have a higher floor than a player like Max Domi, if for no other reason than they fit well in a checking role. Though I'm not sure if in fact this is the case, where 'safer' type picks make the NHL more often than their more skilled counterparts.

The Canucks drafted guys like Rahimi and Sauve and probably thought they were 'safer' picks to play in the NHL than more dynamic dmen like Justin Schultz. I can't say with any certainty if players with 'safe' skillsets are in fact any safer...

In general, I like swinging for the fences with picks at every position. Similar to what the Red Wings seem to do. If for no other reason than unearthing a gem like Datsyuk/Zetterberg is worth an infinite amount of Malhotra's. Though I do support the Horvat pick because of the question marks around Domi/Nichushkin, Horvat's 40 goals in his last 60 games and excellent showing to finish his season.

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09-18-2013, 08:31 PM
  #365
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Kessel would been great with the Sedins. Heck i think Nichushkin would look great with them. He already has more offensive ceiling than Zassian. You want to add size to your team. Add a guy like that. We get pushed around because our top min offensive guys are small. Kings have guys like Kopitar, Brown, Carter putting up numbers. Anaheim has Perry, and Gezflef. We will soon have Shinkurak. If Kassian doesn't turn out what's gonna happen? Jensen?

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09-18-2013, 08:34 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
Kessel would been great with the Sedins. Heck i think Nishinskin would look great with them. He already has more offensive ability than Zassian imo. You want to add size to your team. Add a guy like that. We get pushed around because our top min offensive guys are small. Kings have guys like Kopitar, Brown, Carter putting up numbers. Anaheim has Perry, and Gezflef. We will soon have Shinkurak. If Kassian doesn't turn out what's gonna happen? Jensen?
I think some of you should give kassian a bit more time, he is very young...it's not like he is 25 and nothing has happened.

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09-18-2013, 08:37 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by rune74 View Post
I think some of you should give kassian a bit more time, he is very young...it's not like he is 25 and nothing has happened.
its not like he is a top 10 pick with amazing junior numbers either though. He's offensive ceiling is not that high. Many fans are hoping for a Lucic but how often does that happen right?

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09-18-2013, 08:40 PM
  #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
Kessel would been great with the Sedins. Heck i think Nichushkin would look great with them. He already has more offensive ceiling than Zassian. You want to add size to your team. Add a guy like that. We get pushed around because our top min offensive guys are small. Kings have guys like Kopitar, Brown, Carter putting up numbers. Anaheim has Perry, and Gezflef. We will soon have Shinkurak. If Kassian doesn't turn out what's gonna happen? Jensen?
Horvat

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09-18-2013, 08:56 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
its not like he is a top 10 pick with amazing junior numbers either though. He's offensive ceiling is not that high. Many fans are hoping for a Lucic but how often does that happen right?
Really? I think you are making your own facts up.

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09-18-2013, 09:55 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by JI123 View Post
Horvat
-2, 0% in the FO dot after 1 period, following his no-show game on Monday.

Whenever you're ready, Mr. 9th Overall Pick.

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09-18-2013, 10:01 PM
  #371
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Horvat
He's probably not gonna be a 1st line guy

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09-18-2013, 10:46 PM
  #372
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After Hunters first two pre season games there is a raging debate over on the Stars board as to whether or not they should have drafted Shinkaruk instead of Nichushkin.

Stupid Dallas fans. They'll probably never let this one go.



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09-18-2013, 10:59 PM
  #373
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
-2, 0% in the FO dot after 1 period, following his no-show game on Monday.

Whenever you're ready, Mr. 9th Overall Pick.
Dude, stop.

Are you VN's Dad or something? Give it time. We got Shinkaruk, the point is moot for now. He's our skill guy and probably should have been taken a lot sooner.

Get a grip.

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09-18-2013, 11:03 PM
  #374
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He'll go back to London for a long year with the Mem cup and hopefully a long playoff run playing a very important role, it's looking like its the best for him. Shinkaruk is 6 months older and has played an extra year of Junior, so it's not *too* surprising that he's looked more ready, same with Gaunce (again, has played an extra year of Junior).

We can't start rushing prospects like the Blue Jackets.

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09-18-2013, 11:28 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by SDK View Post
Dude, stop.

Are you VN's Dad or something? Give it time. We got Shinkaruk, the point is moot for now. He's our skill guy and probably should have been taken a lot sooner.

Get a grip.
Sorry, this is the 9th overall pick, who we traded our MVP for. Yes, it's early, but the guy's shown absolutely zero in his first 2 games with the club, playing against fairly weak competition.

Don't be so afraid to call a spade a spade, the guy's been a total disappointment. Remember the hype that he got after the prospects scrimmage a month ago?

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