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Bo Horvat vs the World (Nichushkin mostly)

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Old
09-17-2013, 02:18 AM
  #201
Bleach Clean
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VKW, nice recap. Still didn't get the point about anecdotal evidence used to combat an opinion. The closest you came was mentioning tracking stats to prove your case, but not actually doing it. Supposition and anecdotal evidence to prove a point, even if you have the right point in mind, will rarely if ever be enough. Too many ways to counter it.

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09-17-2013, 02:18 AM
  #202
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Didn't do this. Bust.
Those Dallas jerseys are vile.

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09-17-2013, 02:20 AM
  #203
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Didn't do this. Bust.


Man, that was some excellent goaltending.

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09-17-2013, 02:24 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
VKW, nice recap. Still didn't get the point about anecdotal evidence used to combat an opinion. The closest you came was mentioning tracking stats to prove your case, but not actually doing it. Supposition and anecdotal evidence to prove a point, even if you have the right point in mind, will rarely if ever be enough. Too many ways to counter it.
Do you want to dig up stats comparing the difference in production between European players and Canadian players between the regular season and playoffs? If so, be my guest.

I don't think that it merits going to the trouble though.

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09-17-2013, 02:28 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Do you want to dig up stats comparing the difference in production between European players and Canadian players between the regular season and playoffs? If so, be my guest.

I don't think that it merits going to the trouble though.

Not saying you needed to. But you elected not to, and you elected to post a pic as a rebuttal instead. These forms of counter arguments are worthless. Plus, I've seen our work in the stats department and... Yeah. Anyways, CanaFan had the idea for a much simpler solution. Would have done nicely, and would not have been the pure anecdotal evidence you have brought to bear. Food for thought.

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09-17-2013, 02:33 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Not saying you needed to. But you elected not to, and you elected to post a pic as a rebuttal instead. These forms of counter arguments are worthless. Plus, I've seen our work in the stats department and... Yeah. Anyways, CanaFan had the idea for a much simpler solution. Would have done nicely, and would not have been the pure anecdotal evidence you have brought to bear. Food for thought.
CanFan said that the idea is ignorant and should be treated with disdain, and while I agree whole-heartedly with that, I don't see how it's a proof.

And the pic wasn't the rebuttal. I think I explained that already.

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09-17-2013, 02:34 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post


Didn't do this. Bust.
That gif must be sped up? Unless he really is that fast. I have never watched him so I wouldn't know.

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09-17-2013, 02:36 AM
  #208
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That gif must be sped up? Unless he really is that fast. I have never watched him so I wouldn't know.
It is most definitely sped up.

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09-17-2013, 02:39 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
CanFan said that the idea is ignorant and should be treated with disdain, and while I agree whole-heartedly with that, I don't see how it's a proof.

And the pic wasn't the rebuttal. I think I explained that already.

The pic was your initial "counter". A lot of this stuff seems to get generated from your first response. Hmmmm.

CanaFan also mentioned something about percentages, look it up. Looks like we are going to be settling in the for the long haul here. Seems more posts will be required.

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09-17-2013, 02:40 AM
  #210
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It is most definitely sped up.
I was going to say...holy ****, we passed up on a fasted Bure?!?!?

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09-17-2013, 02:47 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The pic was your initial "counter". A lot of this stuff seems to get generated from your first response. Hmmmm.
Wrong. My initial counter argument was how playoff success could be determined by nationality. When Please Let Us Win replied he didn't care, and then asked a vague question about who the most productive players in the SCF are, I responded by providing one such player.

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CanaFan also mentioned something about percentages, look it up. Looks we are going to be settling in the for the long haul here. Seems more posts will be required.
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Originally Posted by CanaFan View Post
It's also an ignorant and oft-disproven IDEA, so attempts to use this old chestnut to imply that Nichushkin specifically would disappear in the playoffs - which another poster did way back in this thread - should be treated with disdain. Which VKW did. Don't see what the problem is here.

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09-17-2013, 02:49 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Wrong. My initial counter argument was how playoff success could be determined by nationality. When Please Let Us Win replied he didn't care, and then asked a vague question about who the most productive players in the SCF are, I responded by providing one such player.
I'm speaking about the initial counter. And you do know the exception doesn't prove the rule and that it's anecdotal evidence to post a pic like that dont you? Or maybe you don't...

You're still missing the post material I'm referring to regarding CanaFan.

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09-17-2013, 02:57 AM
  #213
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not sure if sped up but Nichushkin is pretty damn fast. Faster than Hovart for sure XD

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Old
09-17-2013, 02:58 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I'm speaking about the initial counter. And you do know the exception doesn't prove the rule and that it's anecdotal evidence to post a pic like that dont you? Or maybe you don't...
Except I wasn't using it to prove the rule, or use it as evidence at all. When confronted about how nationality could affect playoff performance, he changed the topic and asked which players score the most in the SCF, so I showed him one of the players he was requesting.

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You're still missing the post material I'm referring to regarding CanaFan.
Well yes, I suppose I am. Enlighten me.

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09-17-2013, 03:08 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Except I wasn't using it to prove the rule, or use it as evidence at all. When confronted about how nationality could affect playoff performance, he changed the topic and asked which players score the most in the SCF, so I showed him one of the players he was requesting.



Well yes, I suppose I am. Enlighten me.
Nah, I'd rather you hunt for the post yourself.

If not using it as any type of evidence, why post it? It is the very definition of anecdotal evidence in that it is a brief commentary, a snap shot. Therefore, largely useless.

Also, don't you work? You live in TOR yes? Should be 3AM there. I myself have to go, but I look forward to settling in on this topic and talking about it for the next few weeks... Until i post my Rebuttal to the other thread we have going on. The bigger one....See u then. Cheers.

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Old
09-17-2013, 03:15 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Nah, I'd rather you hunt for the post yourself.

If not using it as any type of evidence, why post it? It is the very definition of anecdotal evidence in that it is a brief commentary, a snap shot. Therefore, largely useless.

Also, don't you work? You live in TOR yes? Should be 3AM there. I myself have to go, but I look forward to settling in on this topic and talking about it for the next few weeks... Until i post my Rebuttal to the other thread we have going on. The bigger one....See u then. Cheers.
Well I'm sorry my arguments have been unable to come close to this fabled post of yours, a shame I can't find it to see what I'm missing out on.

I posted the pic in response to a question posed. Is it useless in regards to the other discussion? Sure. But so was the attempt to evade my original question, so...

Anyways, I wish you good night as well.

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Old
09-17-2013, 05:20 AM
  #217
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The original post sucks. A thread dedicated to Beach Clean should have been labelled as such.

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Old
09-17-2013, 10:16 AM
  #218
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Do any mods notice the trend here?
Are you saying that you were happy with Horvat's performance last night?

Why does everything need to be sugar-coated to be taken seriously? The guy did not have a good game. Try telling it like it is, that's usually the best way to go about things.

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09-17-2013, 10:18 AM
  #219
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Without getting the middle of this ***t on VKW-fest that you've all fit going in here, a bit of common sense would suggest that the number of Conn Smythe winners by nationality is likely to be roughly in line with the proportion of players by those same nationalities over the years.

Of course this whole Horvat- Nichushkin "thing" departed the realm of common sense a long time ago ...

Never quoted myself before but since it keeps coming up for some reason...

This post was in response to another poster who lazily rebutted VKW's Malkin-Conn Smythe photo by asking how many Canadians had won the CS before, which obviously is a lot but as it should be and probably no more or less than the proportion of Canadians in the league through the years. I'm generally on the side that VKW is making - and have said so in another post - that projecting Nichushkin (or any player for that matter) as a poor playoff performer due to his nationality is moronic and easily disproven. That said, this thread has long since departed from the realm of rational discourse and has steadily devolved into an exercise in pure rhetoric - arguing over how to argue. I wish you all luck but there are far more interesting threads on this board to peruse now that the (pre) season has started.

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09-17-2013, 10:19 AM
  #220
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Originally Posted by F A N View Post
The original post sucks. A thread dedicated to Beach Clean should have been labelled as such.
Personally i'd have given it a 5/10 myself, but everyone's a critic I guess ...

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09-17-2013, 10:28 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Are you saying that you were happy with Horvat's performance last night?

Why does everything need to be sugar-coated to be taken seriously? The guy did not have a good game. Try telling it like it is, that's usually the best way to go about things.

It depends on your reading comprehension I guess. I could quote literally a dozen posts stating that Horvat didn't have a great game but wasn't poor either. Are you stating that his play was "poor", as opposed to "not great"? If so, what was specifically poor about it? Bad turnovers? Lazy defensively? Had a breakaway but tripped over his own skates and fell down in a heap? Cause if not, then you are confusing the two and being unduly harsh on an 18 yo kid playing a single NHL (preseason) game. Players have great games and players have bad games and players have so-so games and no single game is predictive of a player's future or upside. Were Canuck fans "happy" with Horvat? No I don't think so, at least not in the sense that most were happy with Shinkaruk and Corrado or even Gaunce, but I have no reason to be "unhappy" with his game either. It was just one of likely hundreds of games this kid is going to play over his career so I see no need to get to up or down with any of them.

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09-17-2013, 10:35 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by F A N View Post
The original post sucks. A thread dedicated to Beach Clean should have been labelled as such.
It's not. It was split from a previous thread and that ended up being the first post.

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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Are you saying that you were happy with Horvat's performance last night?

Why does everything need to be sugar-coated to be taken seriously? The guy did not have a good game. Try telling it like it is, that's usually the best way to go about things.
He had an average game and there's nothing wrong with that. Burrows, for one, is a very good NHLer and had a substantially worse game.

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Old
09-17-2013, 10:40 AM
  #223
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Originally Posted by CanaFan View Post
It depends on your reading comprehension I guess. I could quote literally a dozen posts stating that Horvat didn't have a great game but wasn't poor either. Are you stating that his play was "poor", as opposed to "not great"? If so, what was specifically poor about it? Bad turnovers? Lazy defensively? Had a breakaway but tripped over his own skates and fell down in a heap? Cause if not, then you are confusing the two and being unduly harsh on an 18 yo kid playing a single NHL (preseason) game. Players have great games and players have bad games and players have so-so games and no single game is predictive of a player's future or upside. Were Canuck fans "happy" with Horvat? No I don't think so, at least not in the sense that most were happy with Shinkaruk and Corrado or even Gaunce, but I have no reason to be "unhappy" with his game either. It was just one of likely hundreds of games this kid is going to play over his career so I see no need to get to up or down with any of them.
Yes, I thought he was poor. His critical d-zone FO loss led directly to SJ's opening goal. That's about the only memorable play that he had.

I just can't agree with the notion that it "was just one game". That's the first time that he put on a Canuck jersey and played against an opponent. There are open spots in this lineup. He just didn't really show anything, and that goes for most of our prospects, actually. Were dominated, and really didn't show much at all, short of Shinkaruk's beauty goal and Gaunce's solid play throughout (didn't think Corrado deserved the level of praise that he's been getting). I guess I just wonder why some of these guys aren't trying a little harder to get noticed. Throw a big hit, run the goalie, whatever. Just no spark at all.

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09-17-2013, 10:42 AM
  #224
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Yes, I thought he was poor. His critical d-zone FO loss led directly to SJ's opening goal. That's about the only memorable play that he had.

I just can't agree with the notion that it "was just one game". That's the first time that he put on a Canuck jersey and played against an opponent. There are open spots in this lineup. He just didn't really show anything, and that goes for most of our prospects, actually. Were dominated, and really didn't show much at all, short of Shinkaruk's beauty goal and Gaunce's solid play throughout (didn't think Corrado deserved the level of praise that he's been getting). I guess I just wonder why some of these guys aren't trying a little harder to get noticed. Throw a big hit, run the goalie, whatever. Just no spark at all.
I won't buy into your "he sucks and is a bust" just like the rest of the canucks garbage. Imagine losing a faceoff....last I checked even the great ones lost a few

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09-17-2013, 10:43 AM
  #225
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He had an average game and there's nothing wrong with that. Burrows, for one, is a very good NHLer and had a substantially worse game.
Burrows & Kesler stunk up the joint, yes, I totally agree.

However, that shouldn't be very surprising. They've got long-term contracts and obvious spots on the team. They're there to get some skating in and to avoid injury. It's the guys who have a lot to gain - Horvat, Jensen, etc. - whos no-shows are just pretty puzzling.

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