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All Purpose Quebec Thread (Quebec Separation II)

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Old
09-18-2013, 11:34 AM
  #101
JLP
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Originally Posted by Doppler Drift View Post
And what harm are they doing? The government is still secular. They aren't hold a mass in front of you. They aren't handing out religious pamphlets. The symbols are harmless. Nobody gave a crap when Christians symbols were all around us, including in government buildings. But some people now have their panties in a bunch when all these awful strangers show up with THEIR odd religious symbols and clothing.
I say either all religious symbols are banished from the public service or reject this charter.

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09-18-2013, 11:35 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Only if the symbols were part of their anatomical. Which brings us to the thus far unexplored area of religious tattoos...



"ridiculous"

Can they not keep their faith without wearing religious symbols while they representing the public in a secular society?



Symbols do not necessarily affect a person's ability to do their job any more than nakedness might. But the question is whether they are appropriate. A secular society does not want government employees wearing religious symbols while they are representing and serving the public.
Yes, a teacher wearing a turban is the same as a teacher showing up naked. Good ****ing god.

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Old
09-18-2013, 11:37 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Krut View Post
Yes, a teacher wearing a turban is the same as a teacher showing up naked. Good ****ing god.
Both could still "do their jobs" and that was your evaluation criteria not mine pay attention.

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Old
09-18-2013, 11:39 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Only if the symbols were part of their anatomical. Which brings us to the thus far unexplored area of religious tattoos...



"ridiculous"

Can they not keep their faith without wearing religious symbols while they representing the public in a secular society?



Symbols do not necessarily affect a person's ability to do their job any more than nakedness might. But the question is whether they are appropriate. A secular society does not want government employees wearing religious symbols while they are representing and serving the public.
No, a truly secular society shouldn't care as long as what they are doing isn't harmful or illegal and doesn't hinder their job performance. And again, I am about as atheist as they come.

Oh and nakedness?



Last edited by Doppler Drift: 09-18-2013 at 11:42 AM. Reason: Couldn't let that ridiculous feint slide
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Old
09-18-2013, 11:46 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Doppler Drift View Post
No, a truly secular society shouldn't care as long as what they are doing isn't harmful or illegal and doesn't hinder their job performance. And again, I am about as atheist as they come.

Oh and nakedness?
In what definition of a "secular society" does the society not care if it isn't actually secular?

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09-18-2013, 11:49 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Both could still "do their jobs" and that was your evaluation criteria not mine pay attention.
No, a teacher could not do their job naked. There is a consequence to teaching children nude. There is no consequence to teaching children wearing a turban. That is the criteria. Pay attention.

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09-18-2013, 11:52 AM
  #107
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Yes, a teacher wearing a turban is the same as a teacher showing up naked. Good ****ing god.
A public office employee could wear a turban as far as I'm concerned. A teacher? No. Public school should be a place of free and rational thinking where you leave religion and it's pressions at home. A place where religion could be criticized too. It is not the colour of your skin, not your sex not your language. It's harder to do with a teacher showing religious allegiance.
On that part, I completely agree on how France sees public Republican school.

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09-18-2013, 11:56 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Le Casque de Mats View Post
A public office employee could wear a turban as far as I'm concerned. A teacher? No. Public school should be a place of free and rational thinking where you leave religion and it's pressions at home. A place where religion could be criticized too. It is not the colour of your skin, not your sex not your language. It's harder to do with a teacher showing religious allegiance.
On that part, I completely agree on how France sees public Republican school.
Je vous remets le relais bon courage!

Thanks for the spirited discussion guys see you later!

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:04 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Le Casque de Mats View Post
A public office employee could wear a turban as far as I'm concerned. A teacher? No. Public school should be a place of free and rational thinking where you leave religion and it's pressions at home. A place where religion could be criticized too. It is not the colour of your skin, not your sex not your language. It's harder to do with a teacher showing religious allegiance.
On that part, I completely agree on how France sees public Republican school.
I read posts like this and I wonder if any of you have actually ever met or gotten to know someone that happens to wear so called "conspicuous" religious symbols. The vast, vast majority of them are normal people. Not a group of extremist religious crusaders that you laughably depict them as.

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:09 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Québec is the cradle of Canada and its culture.
In what dream world do you live in?

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:20 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Only if the symbols were part of their anatomical. Which brings us to the thus far unexplored area of religious tattoos...



"ridiculous"

Can they not keep their faith without wearing religious symbols while they representing the public in a secular society?



Symbols do not necessarily affect a person's ability to do their job any more than nakedness might. But the question is whether they are appropriate. A secular society does not want government employees wearing religious symbols while they are representing and serving the public.
What is a religious symbol not appropriate? You are aware that the vast majority of public servants are never seen by the public?

As for keeping their faith, for some they will feel like they cannot keep their faith, it is part of their faith and cannot be separated easily if at all. What next, will they force a Sikh man to cut his hair and beard? Will they force a Hassidic Jew to cut his payots?

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:23 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Casque de Mats View Post
A public office employee could wear a turban as far as I'm concerned. A teacher? No. Public school should be a place of free and rational thinking where you leave religion and it's pressions at home. A place where religion could be criticized too. It is not the colour of your skin, not your sex not your language. It's harder to do with a teacher showing religious allegiance.
On that part, I completely agree on how France sees public Republican school.
How does the turban change anything? You can't think rationally when you see a religious symbol? I pity you.

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:42 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Suiteness View Post
DING DING DING!! We have a winner.

Anybody who can't see this is either a troll, or an idiot who shouldn't be bothered with.
But we all know that this would be unpopular to ban Christian symbols.

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Old
09-18-2013, 12:48 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Why when I wrote cradle of Canadian "culture" did you answer with a quote about the cradle of "civilization"?

I don't think Québec is the cradle of civilization fwiw
There is no official Canadian culture - we are a multicultural nation.

In the House of Commons on October 8, 1971 per the Right Hon. P.E. Trudeau (Prime Minister):
It was the view of the royal commission, shared by the government and, I am sure, by all Canadians, that there cannot be one cultural policy for Canadians of British and French origin, another for the original peoples and yet a third for all others. For although there are two official languages, there is no official culture, nor does any ethnic group take precedence over any other. No citizen or group of citizens is other than Canadian, and all should be treated fairly.
Fair treatment for all Canadians - something this odious proposed Quebec charter of values tosses aside.

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Old
09-18-2013, 01:07 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
How does the turban change anything? You can't think rationally when you see a religious symbol? I pity you.
Pity me all you want. I don't think you get what I'm saying. Just read on France secularism, you might disagree with their view, that's ok. But I agree, mostly on education system. No children, no teachers allowed to wear religious symbols at the public republican school. There is private religious schools for that. Is France some sort of mean dictatorship because of that? No!

And I, as someone who grew up in religion, know it can **ck up your life and family.

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Old
09-18-2013, 01:36 PM
  #116
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From a personal perspective I find this whole situation more sad than anything else.

I'm born and raised in Canada (the evil anglo part), I am firmly an agnostic/atheist but having come from a religious family as well as having traveled much of the globe I have always come to appreciate the diversity of various cultures and religions. I've found that being able to identify where people come from and their perspectives gives me a whole new prism to appreciate my own life.

It's sad that under this charter my own father (wears turban) would be considered a second class citizen not being afforded the same opportunities as other Canadians simply because his religious affiliations. My old man has been living in this country for nearly 30 years and identifies himself as only being Canadian and has assimilated himself as well as can ever be expected from any immigrant. I have never heard my father proselytize his religious views to anyone, hell when I told him that I didn't believe in god he accepted it without question saying that it was my own decision to make.

Maybe it's simply growing up in a big city that has for the most part embraced multiculturalism but I have never met anyone that has had a problem with people wearing turbans,headscarves or kippahs. The idea of forcing people to choose between their personal beliefs and their livelihoods seems like the antithesis of Canadian values.

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Old
09-18-2013, 02:34 PM
  #117
Doppler Drift
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Casque de Mats View Post
Pity me all you want. I don't think you get what I'm saying. Just read on France secularism, you might disagree with their view, that's ok. But I agree, mostly on education system. No children, no teachers allowed to wear religious symbols at the public republican school. There is private religious schools for that. Is France some sort of mean dictatorship because of that? No!

And I, as someone who grew up in religion, know it can **ck up your life and family.
How exactly is a teacher or student wearing a hijab or turban going to change anything in a public school? The same curriculum has to be followed correct? Or in Quebec do they let the teachers pick what they are going to teach? Say the grade 3 science teacher can decide to do readings from the Koran instead of say growth and changes in plants.

What they wear doesn't matter one iota. If they take off the offending item they are still religious, doesn't change a damn thing. Your only hope is to remove all people of faith from any public employment.

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Old
09-18-2013, 03:43 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Casque de Mats View Post
Pity me all you want. I don't think you get what I'm saying. Just read on France secularism, you might disagree with their view, that's ok. But I agree, mostly on education system. No children, no teachers allowed to wear religious symbols at the public republican school. There is private religious schools for that. Is France some sort of mean dictatorship because of that? No!

And I, as someone who grew up in religion, know it can **ck up your life and family.
So because it ****ed up yourlife and your family it should be banned for everyone? I am not religious in the least bit, even though my mom wishes I was, and I have absolutely no problem with people working for the government wearing an item that has religious symbolism.

In the end you didn't answer my question, How does it change anything if a teacher has a religious symbol showing? How does it stop rational discourse?

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Old
09-18-2013, 03:56 PM
  #119
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So because it ****ed up yourlife and your family it should be banned for everyone? I am not religious in the least bit, even though my mom wishes I was, and I have absolutely no problem with people working for the government wearing an item that has religious symbolism.

In the end you didn't answer my question, How does it change anything if a teacher has a religious symbol showing? How does it stop rational discourse?
Good luck having that question answered. I've tried several times and the best I've got in response is "could a teacher teach a class naked?"

They don't want to answer it because they know that there isn't a non-bigoted response to the question.

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Old
09-18-2013, 04:34 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Krut View Post
I read posts like this and I wonder if any of you have actually ever met or gotten to know someone that happens to wear so called "conspicuous" religious symbols. The vast, vast majority of them are normal people. Not a group of extremist religious crusaders that you laughably depict them as.
Where did anyone say that religious symbols denote an "extremist religious crusader"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppler Drift View Post
How exactly is a teacher or student wearing a hijab or turban going to change anything in a public school? The same curriculum has to be followed correct? Or in Quebec do they let the teachers pick what they are going to teach? Say the grade 3 science teacher can decide to do readings from the Koran instead of say growth and changes in plants.
A teacher wearing a religious symbol in a public school changes whether or not there is a religious symbol in the public school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
So because (religion) ****ed up your life and your family it should be banned for everyone? ...
Where did anyone say that "(religion) should be banned for everyone"?

Quote:
In the end you didn't answer my question, How does it change anything if a teacher has a religious symbol showing? How does it stop rational discourse?
As above. A teacher wearing a religious symbol in a public school changes whether or not there is a religious symbol in the public school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Krieger View Post
...
It's sad that under this charter my own father (wears turban) would be considered a second class citizen not being afforded the same opportunities as other Canadians simply because his religious affiliations...
I don't see this. Nobody would be allowed to wear a religious symbol in a public service job. Not just your dad. (I disagree with the provision for "small" crosses or stars of david etc.)


I am sort of playing devil's advocate here but I'm not seeing many well-founded objections in this thread, only a bunch of straw men. The laïcité charter does not propose that wearing a religious symbol makes a person an extremist or stops them from doing their job; it does not propose that religion itself should be banned, or that religious people are second-class citizens.

It proposes removing religious symbols from the civil service.

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09-18-2013, 04:37 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Where did anyone say that religious symbols denote an "extremist religious crusader"?



A teacher wearing a religious symbol in a public school changes whether or not there is a religious symbol in the public school.



Where did anyone say that "(religion) should be banned for everyone"?



As above. A teacher wearing a religious symbol in a public school changes whether or not there is a religious symbol in the public school.



I don't see this. Nobody would be allowed to wear a religious symbol in a public service job. Not just your dad. (I disagree with the provision for "small" crosses or stars of david etc.)


I am sort of playing devil's advocate here but I'm not seeing many well-founded objections in this thread, only a bunch of straw men. The laïcité charter does not propose that wearing a religious symbol makes a person an extremist or stops them from doing their job; it does not propose that religion itself should be banned, or that religious people are second-class citizens.

It proposes removing religious symbols from the civil service.
So what? It isn't a crucifix hanging on the wall.

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Old
09-18-2013, 04:46 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Where did anyone say that religious symbols denote an "extremist religious crusader"?



A teacher wearing a religious symbol in a public school changes whether or not there is a religious symbol in the public school.



Where did anyone say that "(religion) should be banned for everyone"?



As above. A teacher wearing a religious symbol in a public school changes whether or not there is a religious symbol in the public school.



I don't see this. Nobody would be allowed to wear a religious symbol in a public service job. Not just your dad. (I disagree with the provision for "small" crosses or stars of david etc.)


I am sort of playing devil's advocate here but I'm not seeing many well-founded objections in this thread, only a bunch of straw men. The laïcité charter does not propose that wearing a religious symbol makes a person an extremist or stops them from doing their job; it does not propose that religion itself should be banned, or that religious people are second-class citizens.

It proposes removing religious symbols from the civil service.
Why can't you, or anyone else here, answer the simplist of questions.

What does banning an individual from wearing a turban while working at the passport office accomplish?

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09-18-2013, 04:50 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
Why can't you, or anyone else here, answer the simplist of questions.

What does banning an individual from wearing a turban while working at the passport office accomplish?

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Old
09-18-2013, 04:50 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Doppler Drift View Post
So what? It isn't a crucifix hanging on the wall.
No it isn't a religious symbol hanging on the wall of a school for example. It's a religious symbol hanging around the neck of the schoolteacher, who is a representative of the school. I don't think there are crucifixes hanging on the walls of Québec public schools anymore.

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09-18-2013, 05:01 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
Why can't you, or anyone else here, answer the simplist of questions.

What does banning an individual from wearing a turban while working at the passport office accomplish?
It takes a religious symbol out of the public service. Supporters of the laïcité charter seem to believe this is for the greater good, in creating a more secular society. France enacted similar restrictions 10 years ago.

How do you regard the French law?

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