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Best two-year peak by a goaltender: Bernie Parent or Dominik Hasek

View Poll Results: Hasek vs Parent
Parent; seasons 1973-74 and 1974-75 16 21.05%
Hasek; seasons 1996-97 and 1997-98 60 78.95%
Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-18-2013, 05:15 PM
  #26
Boom Boom Bear
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Flyers would not have won those Cups without Parent, even with Clarke on the team. Conn Smythe = Hart

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09-18-2013, 05:15 PM
  #27
King Forsberg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thom View Post
Did ClarkE Mcleash or Leach win a playoff mvp no Bernie won the awards because he stood on his head.
Well since you brought it up, yes Reggie Leach did win a Conn Smythe.

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Old
09-18-2013, 05:18 PM
  #28
thom
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I was talking about the peak years thats what the question was.Leach won when they lost too the habs okay

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Old
09-18-2013, 05:25 PM
  #29
Doctor No
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I think that I fall on the Parent side of this equation (with the question as defined by the OP). Hasek's peak was longer, but Parent's peak was steeper in my opinion.

To give a sense of how tremendous Bernie Parent's 1973-74 season was, my goaltender database currently has 17,513 goaltender/seasons for which I can calculate "goals above replacement" - this measures how many goals a goaltender prevented beyond what a replacement-level netminder would have. In that 17,500+ sample, there are only six instances where a goaltender had a season with a goals above replacement of 100 or greater:

Robert Desjardins, 1986-87 Longueuil (QMJHL): 112.2 GAR
Bernie Parent, 1973-74 Philadelphia (NHL): 108.0 GAR
Stephane Beauregard, 1987-88 St. Jean (QMJHL): 107.4 GAR
Cody Rudkowsky, 1998-99 Seattle (WHL): 102.9 GAR
Mike Murphy, 2008-09 Belleville (OHL): 101.7 GAR
Richard Brodeur, 1971-72 Cornwall (QMJHL): 100.7 GAR

Among NHL goaltenders, the next highest GAR that I have seen (since 1952-53) is Tony Esposito (97.2 GAR), which was actually in the same year as Parent (this is all the more impressive, since Parent's totals are used in Esposito's benchmark, and vice-versa).

Other than Brodeur, the league-wide save percentage in 1973-74 was 89.4%. Over 73 games, Parent put up a 93.3% - that's incredible.

(Insert standard save percentage caveats here)

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09-18-2013, 05:34 PM
  #30
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Hasek was superhuman. Flashy, acrobatic, incredible. A joy.

Parent was otherworldly. Efficient. Winner. Shuts down Orr/Espo, shuts down the French Connection. Some of the best offenses in that decade. So he gets my nod for best peak.

None of this takes away from Hasek's incredible talent and great career.

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Old
09-19-2013, 11:56 AM
  #31
McGuillicuddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I think that I fall on the Parent side of this equation (with the question as defined by the OP). Hasek's peak was longer, but Parent's peak was steeper in my opinion.

To give a sense of how tremendous Bernie Parent's 1973-74 season was, my goaltender database currently has 17,513 goaltender/seasons for which I can calculate "goals above replacement" - this measures how many goals a goaltender prevented beyond what a replacement-level netminder would have. In that 17,500+ sample, there are only six instances where a goaltender had a season with a goals above replacement of 100 or greater:

Robert Desjardins, 1986-87 Longueuil (QMJHL): 112.2 GAR
Bernie Parent, 1973-74 Philadelphia (NHL): 108.0 GAR
Stephane Beauregard, 1987-88 St. Jean (QMJHL): 107.4 GAR
Cody Rudkowsky, 1998-99 Seattle (WHL): 102.9 GAR
Mike Murphy, 2008-09 Belleville (OHL): 101.7 GAR
Richard Brodeur, 1971-72 Cornwall (QMJHL): 100.7 GAR

Among NHL goaltenders, the next highest GAR that I have seen (since 1952-53) is Tony Esposito (97.2 GAR), which was actually in the same year as Parent (this is all the more impressive, since Parent's totals are used in Esposito's benchmark, and vice-versa).

Other than Brodeur, the league-wide save percentage in 1973-74 was 89.4%. Over 73 games, Parent put up a 93.3% - that's incredible.

(Insert standard save percentage caveats here)
Hey Taco, for the GAR statistic, do you think that using a theoretical replacement goalie (i.e. one who has SPCT=league average-0.015) is better than using data from actual replacements who played that season? I can see advantages both ways. Using a theoretical replacement eliminates the significant variability of 'replacement' goalies from team to team. Using actual replacements would help correct for factors other that aren't represented in save percentage. Although it would be more of a pain to calculate using actual replacements I suppose.

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09-19-2013, 12:08 PM
  #32
Doctor No
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGuillicuddy View Post
Hey Taco, for the GAR statistic, do you think that using a theoretical replacement goalie (i.e. one who has SPCT=league average-0.015) is better than using data from actual replacements who played that season? I can see advantages both ways. Using a theoretical replacement eliminates the significant variability of 'replacement' goalies from team to team. Using actual replacements would help correct for factors other that aren't represented in save percentage. Although it would be more of a pain to calculate using actual replacements I suppose.
Very good question - this is something that I struggle with (then again, if it wasn't difficult, it wouldn't be interesting ).

The assumption (that a replacement-level goaltender will have a save percentage 1.5 percentage points lower than an average goaltender) is certainly a fuzzy one. Where it came from was that I did something similar to what you suggest above - for several seasons, I took the pool of goaltenders that would have been expected to play the games at the start of each season. For example, at the start of the 1998-99 season, Stephane Fiset and Jamie Storr would have been expected to shoulder the load for the Kings (while Manny Legace and Ryan Bach would stay in the minors). Comparing those two sets, Fiset/Storr posted a 91.5% save percentage, and Legace/Bach posted a 90.7% save percentage, or 0.8 percentage points less (I give a single-team example because it has fewer moving parts, but I do this on a leaguewide basis).

When I did this across several seasons, I typically got answers that clustered around a 1.5 percentage point differential. I surmised that the results might differ from era to era, but if it does, I haven't been able to tease out the effect just yet. I also surmised that it would be higher in the minors and in juniors, and although I did see a small increase, it wasn't statistically significant. (It does seem higher in college hockey - and my guess is that it's because it's harder to find "freely-available talent" in the college environment. I still use 1.5% in my database, primarily because of laziness on my part).

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09-19-2013, 06:00 PM
  #33
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ken Dryden blows the doors off all these guys.
This is exactly part of the reason I didn't participate in the top 40 goalie project, it's impossible to separate the goalie from the team.

That being said Ken might possibly be the most over rated goalie of all time IMO.

As for the thread it's Hasek and not really close, Parent had a great peak but also had lots of help and conditions to make it happen.

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Old
09-19-2013, 07:20 PM
  #34
Killion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
That being said Ken might possibly be the most over rated goalie of all time IMO.

As for the thread it's Hasek and not really close, Parent had a great peak but also had lots of help and conditions to make it happen.
Oh boy, now ya gone & done it.

As for this thread & the comparison, I too went with Hasek though I do believe it is in fact "close", going with Dominic as his "peak" was more sustained, longer in duration. A more important goaltender in the pantheon as he in some ways changed, influenced the way the position was played contemporaneously through his peak, forever after. Parent more temporal, in the mold of Plante, classic stand-up.

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09-19-2013, 09:34 PM
  #35
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Oh boy, now ya gone & done it.
It's the HF Boards version of a Facebook poke.

Quote:
As for this thread & the comparison, I too went with Hasek though I do believe it is in fact "close", going with Dominic as his "peak" was more sustained, longer in duration. A more important goaltender in the pantheon as he in some ways changed, influenced the way the position was played contemporaneously through his peak, forever after. Parent more temporal, in the mold of Plante, classic stand-up.
Bernie's peak was literally those 2 years though, Hasek's is almost a decade really.

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Old
09-19-2013, 10:09 PM
  #36
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Bernie's peak was literally those 2 years though, Hasek's is almost a decade really.
That's kinda my beef with the wording of the thread/poll.

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Old
09-20-2013, 08:33 AM
  #37
tony d
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Dominik Hasek.

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09-20-2013, 01:11 PM
  #38
McGuillicuddy
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
That's kinda my beef with the wording of the thread/poll.
Agreed. It would have been better to call this thread 'Best 2-year peak' or 'Best 2-year stretch' as opposed to just 'Best peak' when the lenght of those peaks are so different.

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09-20-2013, 02:01 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGuillicuddy View Post
Agreed. It would have been better to call this thread 'Best 2-year peak' or 'Best 2-year stretch' as opposed to just 'Best peak' when the lenght of those peaks are so different.
No, lol. Why should we handicap one player just because he had a longer peak?

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09-20-2013, 02:39 PM
  #40
McGuillicuddy
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
No, lol. Why should we handicap one player just because he had a longer peak?
Because the poll is between specifically identified 2-year stretches played by each goalie.

If he wanted to compare the complete peaks of these two goalies he would have included additional years in the Hasek part of the poll.

It's not about handicapping, it's about framing the question to get what you are really asking for.

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09-20-2013, 02:55 PM
  #41
Doctor No
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Exactly - I answered the question as asked by the original poster (and would have voted differently otherwise).

I'm changing the thread title anyhow.

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09-20-2013, 02:58 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Exactly - I answered the question as asked by the original poster (and would have voted differently otherwise).

I'm changing the thread title anyhow.
A little late to change the thread title IMO, after quite a few people probably voted on the initial title. we probably should have thought of that earlier. (I voted Parent based on the Poll question but would have voted Hasek based on the original title).

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09-20-2013, 03:00 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGuillicuddy View Post
Because the poll is between specifically identified 2-year stretches played by each goalie.

If he wanted to compare the complete peaks of these two goalies he would have included additional years in the Hasek part of the poll.

It's not about handicapping, it's about framing the question to get what you are really asking for.
Sorry, my bad. Was some time I read the actual OP and not the thread title.

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09-20-2013, 03:04 PM
  #44
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My apologies folks.

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09-20-2013, 06:22 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
I think Sawchuk's early 50's peak should be part of the conversation.
Definitely.
1951-52
Terry Sawchuk-Detroit
In a playoff year where the checkers reigned supreme, Sawchuk came up with a performance of legendary quality. He shutout Toronto twice and gave them three goals in four games, then allowed the second place Canadiens only two goals while shutting them out in the final two contests. His goals against average was 0.63 and he had an incredible saves percentage of .977.

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09-20-2013, 06:46 PM
  #46
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Ken Dryden blows the doors off all these guys.
I'm a Dryden fan but what 2 seasons are you refferring to? Great as his career was he peaked before winning the Calder...

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09-20-2013, 06:58 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
tbh Hasek was the real playoff mvp in 99... No one was more important to their team than him
Agree 100%...but voted Parent

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Old
09-20-2013, 08:41 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Nope. No citation needed. Thats just a fact... but back to this one, Hasek would be your winner as his peak was sustained over a longer period of time. Additionally, from a purely "entertainment perspective" for the more casual fan, how do you top The Dominators Acrobatics in comparison to Bernies more temporal, steady, calm, cool & collected Jacques Plante stylings? Like comparing a pure wool primary colored Perry Como Cardigan sweater in Parent to some man made fabric in pastels designed by Jacobim Mogatu from Zoolander in Hasek. Im afraid it just doesnt square with me Ishdul.
I was thinking more of a Don Cherry style suit for Hasek

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Old
09-20-2013, 08:56 PM
  #49
Morgoth Bauglir
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I'm a Dryden fan but what 2 seasons are you refferring to? Great as his career was he peaked before winning the Calder...
Huh? Dryden peaked from the 1975-76 season through the 1977-78 season. He won the Calder after the 1971-72 season. Even his Conn Smythe effort in the 1971 playoffs was quite possibly his WEAKEST playoff performance.

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09-20-2013, 09:04 PM
  #50
Killion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
I'm a Dryden fan but what 2 seasons are you refferring to? Great as his career was he peaked before winning the Calder...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Huh? Dryden peaked from the 1975-76 season through the 1977-78 season. He won the Calder after the 1971-72 season. Even his Conn Smythe effort in the 1971 playoffs was quite possibly his WEAKEST playoff performance.
Alrighty. Yep. Pretty much what SP says there Cf.

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